I can't believe that the story of Mulan is really real! I am just speechless!!

Why can't you believe it? There were famous historical female soldiers/generals in Chinese and other East Asian history. Mulan might NOT be a real person, but there were females in military or performed military duties in both ancient and modern China, and that is/was a fact!!!

A daughter of a Tang dynasty official fought out of the surrounded city and sought help, and she was only 13 years old. A concubine of a military commander fought along side with him in ancient time (I think it was either the South and North dynasties or the 5 dynasties and 10 kingdoms era) and was called by her husband jokingly as General Pan. General Qing Liang-Yu took over her husband's army and became a very powerful and officially recognized military commander in late Ming dynasty. Rumor had it that the sister of Tang Taizong commanded her own female soldiers and fought for her father for the establishment of Tang dynasty, and Niang-Zi-Guan (Fortress/Gate of Women) was supposed to be named after her and her female soldiers.

In the more modern time, many female revolutionaries fought and died for the establishment of either the Republic of China in 1911 or for the establishment of People's Republic of China in 1949. My own mother joined the female soldiers of the Republic of China and fought in the War against the Japanese since she was 14 years old in WWII. Many of her companions were female soldiers like her.

In China and most of the East Asia, women were NOT as pampered as the European women, and the government officials' wives and daughters were also responsible to take up their dead husbands' or dead fathers' swords to defend their home cities and their own people where their men were responsible for -- especially if there were no sons or male relatives left!!!

A bit off subject, but I would like to comment as to European women..If you want to discuss post Roman and Christianized women then yes sadly you are correct in most cases. There are a few that standout in exception like Joan of Arc.

But the ancient Irish and most Celtic tribes, the Germanic tribes and the Norse were all known for their women warriors. We also can not forget about the Amazons, while they may have been myth, they might have evolved from the tales the Scythians were known to have strong women warriors.

I agree. I need to be more specific with my comment. The European women in my post are the ones AFTER Christianization of Europe! Somehow, Christian males seemed to think women were of lessor brain than males and should be kept like idiots!!! I really hate the phrase, "Sweetie, don't worry your little brain/head! I will take care it." -- especially, when the speaker was my white male boss, and NOT MY HUSBAND!!! Really, if my husband has dared saying something like that, I will be divorcing him promptly!!!

Anyway, you can be sure that I DID NOT like Obama's latest comments with the term "Sweetie"!!!

Staying closer to home (for me anyway ) ... http://www.legendsofamerica.com/WE-WomenList.html

However, I disagree about few standout women in Europe after Christianity took hold. They're numerous if you take the time to look. Eleanor of Aquitaine, Empress Agnes, Empress Matilda, Hildegard von Bingen, Matilda of Tuscany, Tamar of Georgia, the list is extensive and impressive. All of them would fit nicely on the "three people from history you would want to dinner" list.

Pattie, you sort of missed my point, I said there were a few stand out women,, so I only used one as an example. Thank you for supplying us with a good list of some of the more remarkable ones.

But over all women in christianized Europe for the most part were not know to be warriors or leaders. The few that did rise to the to top were exceptional women.

May I add that a lot of that had to do with the Catholic Church. There was a period of time when women could inherit their husbands property and titles. When they could do that, it didn't go to the church. So send those women to nunneries, declare them to be witches or heretics, anything but keep it a man's world and keep that money and property coming in.

I didn't miss your point, I disagreed with it. You said:



And I disagree. History would naturally only record those expectational ones that rose to prominence and less than a minute of searching on my part turned up half a dozen examples. Based on shear numbers, the fact that I found them at all makes them outstanding in the field...and more numerous than you're crediting. Which is my point.



But predate Christianity so aren't good examples in this case.



I think if we were to count the warriors we might find a handful, but I doubt it. However, in venues of power, every century can hold up examples of women who ruled.

Pattie you are missing my point.


And how many of the women you found were concidered warriors? I was not talking about monarchs, or powerful women in other fields but women who stood side by side with men in the battles. and the women you pointed out were not of Mulan's era.



Sorry, but what are you talking about?

Mulan is pre christain.

My point of bringing up the fact that christianity was what made the majority of European christian women were dependant on men to fight for them was to show that before christioanity it was not such an outlandish idea as it is now.

The whole idea of Chivalry is based on men fighting for women because they were concidered too weak to fight for themselves.

I believe that Mulan is a story that if compared with European history would predate Christianity.

Women of the same ancient era in Europe would have been unusual but the norm.

My comparisons are about warrior women and NOT political leaders.

There were plenty of female political leaders after Christians got hold of Europe. IMO, strong women would get ahead no matter how the society tried to oppress them. Russia's several Empresses were like that. Both Queen Virginia and Queen Elizabeth the first of England were like that. China's Emperor Wu Zetian (I decided she was an Emperor and NOT just an Empress like all the male historians wanted to call her) was a daughter of a concubine ill-favored and ill-treated by her elder brothers and step mother. She was too strong tempered so that she lost her first husband, Tang Taizong's favor. Her position of being the concubine of Tang Taizong made her a very bad choice for her second husband, her step son, to marry in a Confucious nation and society where such action was incest and totally unacceptable!!! She was considered a fox fairy or demon who had used magic to seduce Tang Zhongzong to marry her and to make her his equal and to let her rule the kingdom. They almost pursuaded her 2nd husband to put her aside. However, she went through all of those difficulties and destroyed almost all of her enemies, including her own sons and became the Emperor of China. Anyway, I feel there are a lot of such examples in all over the world.

However, from what I know, Europe before 20th century and after being Christianized almost completely after about 9th or 10th century, there was only Joan of Arc who could be considered a true warrior woman. If there were others, I do not know of them. In East Asia, such warrior women traditions had not stopped since the very ancient time despite of or inspite of the Confucian traditions.

Btw, when I said the Christian tradition, I did NOT exclude the Christian sects (Protestants) AFTER Martin Luther's reforms!!! If someone think they are more gender equal, please think again!!! The white males who called me "sweetie" and thought that I have lessor brain than them were primarily Protestant males (white or Asians or African Americans)!!! Even my very old and very traditional uncles (my father's old Confucian friends who were born many years older than my father, who was only 3 years younger than the last Qing Emperor and was born in the last years of Qing dynasty) considered me having an equal sized brain like them, who could be considered Masters in various scholarly pursuits and/or had various PhD's or higher degrees from prestigeous Universities all over the world!!!

In my family that upheld the very old Chinese Confucius traditions from about Shang and Zhou dynasties that had NOT been corrupted by either Buddhists' or Daoists' traditions, my father and my elder brother would NEVER dare to dispute women's brain power or capabilities because my mother would let them know the errors of their ways as well as their thinking, especially my mother is a lot smarter than both of them and has proven so in numerous times and ways!!! I think the older form of Confucianism was actually fairly gender neutral from my own experience, but then, my father's old friends were mostly Wenzhou or Jiang-Zhe or south than Wenzhou scholars and Wenzhou's old Yong-Jia school of Confucianism respect women much better than the more Northern Confucian sects -- Not to mention, Jiang-Zhe (Wu and Yue) areas always had the shadows of the ancient matricentric traditions and would follow women's leadership more. Therefore, it might be the regional traditions of my father's old friends that caused them to treat me, a mere young girl who was 50 - 60 years their junior as equals.

my point exactly , thank you fireball.

Well, from all my experiences about Wu and Yue families in Taiwan and from my God sister's experiences of her family and friends from the same areas in Shanghai regions and other Jiang-Zhe areas, the Wu and Yue family violence are/were usually wives beating up the husbands and NOT the other way around!!! In both of our impressions, the Wu and Yue women are more militant and martial than all other women in the world since very ancient time -- For those who love ancient Chinese Martial Art stories and ancient Chinese history, the Sword style of Yue Nu (Yue maiden) was from my mother's home town area near Hangzhou of Zhejiang province! Yue Nu (the Young Maiden of Yue) was also hired as the chief sword master to train the soldiers of state of Yue during the Wu and Yue conflict in the Warring States period, and Yue Nu (the young maiden of Yue) was supposed to be just in her teenage years!!!

I would like to suggest another group of modest warrior women that were found in the American West. I am not referring to the Annie Oakley types, but rather the ones that did cross the continent, lost their menfolk, could handle a rifle with the best of men and could shoot the eye of a squirrel at 20 paces. Well if they wanted to. We had no king and not really a country where they were going so they are not quite the same as the Asian women warriors. They defended their families, their land and their menfolk but didn't get much credit in the history books.

I agree. The frontier women (American, Canadian, Australian) were as strong as any men or more so. Also, I forgot that American Indians did have warrior women as well.