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General_Zhaoyun



The above shows the picture of a siege warfare (most likely from Osprey).

It shows a number of siege weapons such as Fire lance, cross bows, siege tower. The warfare seems to be taken during Song period.

But interestingly, it shows "fire Bull" used in defence warfare. I've commonly read about "Fire Bull Attack 火牛攻". You will see that the bull was armed with spear. Then fire was set off at his tail. Because it was very hot, the bull will charge randomly at the enemy, creating an instant shock on the enemy.

Does anyone knows of any major battle or warfare involving fire bull attack?
mariusj
Tian Dan 田单 in 279B.C, at the siege of Jimo 即墨, where he defended, uses flaming bulls.
fcharton
QUOTE (mariusj @ Jun 5 2008, 09:24 AM) *
田单 in 279B.C, at the siege of 即墨, where he defended, uses flaming bulls.


Yes, and it is the only occasion I know where this happened... This is one of the many tricks Tian Dan used to defeat Yue Yi. I am not sure picturing it as a common tactic is correct. (This would not be the only case where something described in one text, probably as an extraodinary measure, then passes as common tactics... eg the convicts cutting their throats in front of the enemy line during a battle between Wu and Yue)

Francois
armour
When I was a kid, I read the folk lore of “Zhuge Liang (諸葛亮) Outsmarting Mei (苗) Barbarians With Robotic Firebulls”.

It was probably a fiction. It was roughly like this:

When Liu Bei retreated to Xichuan, the natives - Mei barbarians, constantly threatened the Han people in that region’s safety. Then Zhu Ge Liang went down settling this issue with the Mei King. Despite Mei natives possessed various superiorities, a little division of Han army were always coming out victorious. After 7 skirmishes, the Mei King admitted Han superiority, and swore loyalty to Han forever. Liu Bei's Han Army and immigrants finally had peace in Xichuan. And Xichuan finally became assimilated to Han China.

That was the story of “Seven Captures and Let Go (七擒七縱)”. The story in using the fiery robotic bulls was part of one skirmish in Han army with Mei army. Han army used the fiery robotic bulls to Mei's surprise.
snowybeagle
QUOTE (fcharton @ Jun 5 2008, 04:42 PM) *
This is one of the many tricks Tian Dan used to defeat Yue Yi.

According to Shiji chapter 82, by then, Yue Yi had been replaced by Qi Jue, remember?

QUOTE (fcharton @ Jun 5 2008, 04:42 PM) *
I am not sure picturing it as a common tactic is correct. (This would not be the only case where something described in one text, probably as an extraodinary measure, then passes as common tactics... eg the convicts cutting their throats in front of the enemy line during a battle between Wu and Yue)

I have doubts about the reliability of this particular account.

Now, I've never been in the military, but I cannot imagine being so stunned at the sight of my opponents slitting their own throats that I'd lose the battle just because of that ...
Yang Zongbao
Aye, although the incident is rather famous, I don't believe that it was used very often, the effect deriving much of its impact from the unexpectedness of such a tactic. I think I remember reading about another instance in Soldiers of the Dragon by rebels against Song troops, but in that instance the government troops recovered quickly and defeated the rebels.
General_Zhaoyun
QUOTE (mariusj @ Jun 5 2008, 03:24 PM) *
Tian Dan 田单 in 279B.C, at the siege of Jimo 即墨, where he defended, uses flaming bulls.


Which state was Tian Dan from?

Can you tell more more about the battle? I supposed it took place during the warring states period. Which state vs which state?
Yang Zongbao
Tian Dan was a general of the kingdom of Qi, and he fought off the Yan army. I used to have an account of this in a book I had, but the book has disappeared.
snowybeagle
QUOTE (General_Zhaoyun @ Jun 6 2008, 08:58 PM) *
Which state was Tian Dan from?

Can you tell more more about the battle? I supposed it took place during the warring states period. Which state vs which state?

Francois provided a translation in Shi Ji - Chapter 82, Biography of Tian Dan. It took place circa 279 BC, State of Qi versus State of Yan.
armour
O well, I just checked the forum, fcharton already translated the whole story out. So I stopped translating here. I left what I found for you here.

Also I checked the story “Seven Captures and Let Go七擒七縱” for you. The story of fires & beasts was in 6th Capture and Let Go.

If you didn’t find Han Army used the fiery robotic bulls, then I only knew that was a different version I read when I was little.

But I thought you would like to know the story, so I put it here.

Again, 6th Capture and Let Go, was where the Han Army supposedly using the fiery robotic bulls; well, at least that was what I thought………………

And sorry for posting but not translating a clumsy Chinese story "Seven Captures and Let Go七擒七縱" here. As you can see, it's very long. But if any member who can't read Chinese but interesting in translated version, let me know. I would find time to translate it.



田單是齊國臨淄人
田單是齊國臨淄人。他很有才幹,而且懂得兵法,可惜齊湣王不能用他,只得在臨淄城當一名主管買賣的小官吏。西元前二八四年,燕軍攻陷臨淄,城中的人紛紛逃難,田單和他的宗族也逃到安平。在安平時.,田單叫同族的人,把車軸凸起的部分鋸掉,而且用鐵片把軸包好。別人看了,都笑他們。等到燕軍攻打安平,安平的人又必須逃難。在路上,車子太多,車軸相碰,不但跑不快,而且軸斷車翻,都為燕兵抓住。只有田單一族,順利地逃到即墨去。在即墨城,剛好守城的將軍病死了,大家就推田單為將軍。田單雖然當了將軍,但是和士兵一樣工作。同族的人,都編入軍中,城中的人都非常敬愛他。西元前二七九年,田單施反間計,使燕惠王改用騎劫代替樂毅;並且使用各種計謀,使燕軍喪失戰志,使齊人鬥志高昂。田單一方面假準備投降,一方面收集城中的牛隻,共有一千餘頭。然後五彩的布帛披在牛身上,牛角綁著利刃,又將浸油的麻葦綁在牛尾巴上,好像是大掃把。在約定投降日子的前一天晚上,田單叫老百姓在城牆下挖了幾十個洞穴,把牛從洞中趕出,用火燒牛尾,火漸漸燒到牛尾時,牛大怒,直奔燕軍兵營。當時燕兵以為齊人馬上就要投降了,正在放心地睡。等到火牛衝進營中,都驚惶失措,不知是甚麼東西,亂成一團。田單帶領齊兵,隨後殺來,燕軍大敗,自相踐踏,死者不計其數。田單殺了燕將騎劫,乘勝收回齊國失去的七十餘城。

URL://火牛陣

English Translation:
Tian Dan was citizen of City Zin Tziu, Xi. He was resourceful, and knew the art for war. But Xi King didn’t like him, so Tian Dan only possessed a minor government post for ministering trading. At 284 B.C. Yian Army broke into Xi Capital Zin Tziu. Tian Dan's family took refuge in City An Pin. In An Pin, Tian Dan taught people to modify the carts' axles , but people laughed at his weird modification on carts' axles. When Yian Army laid siege City An Pin, people of An Pin had to fled. But the crowd fleeing mules' exceeding axles crashed one to another, the mules broke down, and Yian Army took prey of them. Tian Dan's family went away with the modified mules to City Ji Mou. In Ji Mou, people elevated him a leader. Although Tian Dan had been lifted up as head, but he willingly worked like norms. Even his families had been put into the military service by him. So the people of Ji Mou respected him a lot. At 279 B.C. Tian Dan ……………..



六擒六縱
孟獲在禿龍洞棄守後,決心在其根據地蠻都銀坑山佈防,並集結南中地區各部族軍力,以和諸葛亮一決生死。
銀坑山以產銀有名,是南中地區的政經中心,約在現今貴州省及廣西自治區附近,也是這次諸葛亮南征的主要目標。由孟獲之妻 ─ 祝融氏及其娘家部族駐守。
當諸葛亮下令南征時,祝融一族公開宣稱,將運用他們的力量,徹底擊潰蜀漢大軍。
祝融一族擅長飛刀術,殺傷力極強,在蠻族中作戰力應屬佼佼者。相傳祝融氏屬火神後代,擁有各式各樣的火攻密術,他們經常穿著諸紅色戰袍,凶狠又勇猛,是讓其他族人聞之色變的「大殺手」。
孟獲在退入銀坑山後,立刻召集附近屬祝融族的四個洞主,共商對蜀漢南征軍的作戰計劃。
孟獲的妻子祝融氏,強悍地表示:「要擊潰蜀漢大軍,最有效的方法,是直接先行擊殺諸葛亮。諸葛亮一死,所有南征軍團便會自然而然崩潰掉的。」
「那用什麼方法可以擊殺諸葛亮呢?」
「最好的方法,是把他們引入決戰的地點,要利用地利。銀坑山北面有個三方河平原,是三條大河的沖積地,這裡是個袋形的平地,可以將蜀軍誘入這個地方,再從三河口上截斷之,諸葛亮便成了囊中物了。」
這時候,又傳報西南八納洞的洞主木鹿大王也率其部眾前來助陣,木鹿大王是位有名的馴獸師,他是軍團最大特色,便是擁有大量的虎、豹、象等兇猛動物,在平地作戰,破壞力非常可怕。
孟獲得到此援助,信心大增,決定和諸葛亮在此作硬碰硬決戰。
他在銀坑洞山麓,瀘水、甘南水、西城水的匯流處,搭建防禦性城堡,有朵思大王負責防守,木鹿大王則駐守在附近平原區,隨時準備襲擊進攻到這裡的蜀漢大軍。
朵思大王在城寨裡埋伏大量弓弩手,每張弓弩可同時連續發射十支弓箭,箭頭上塗有劇毒,只要傷及皮膚,立刻會侵入五臟六腑,非死不可。
從前線上的情報,諸葛亮判斷這將是場應戰,因此他派出趙雲和魏延為主戰部隊。
但在朵思大王的毒箭攻勢下,蜀漢軍在首度和第二度的攻城戰中,損失慘重,趙雲只好宣佈暫時撤退,請示諸葛亮再作定奪。
諸葛亮下令建造防箭工事,但朵思大王卻以火箭攻擊之,蜀軍只好撤退至十里之地。
諸葛亮便下令暫時休戰,重新蒐集地形環境情報,並擬定新的攻擊策略。
休戰期間,三河口附近突然狂風大作,兩、三天內飛沙走石,十尺以外的距離,完全視線不清。
諸葛亮突生一計,他下令二十萬蜀漢大軍,小心地將土用衣服包著,再穿在身上,好像是一個個移動的小土壤。利用黃昏時刻,在猛風中,逼近三江平原的防禦城。
朵思大王雖下令以毒箭攻擊,但強風中,弓弩根本射不準,蜀漢大軍攻到城寨下,打土壤堆高,很快堆成一個和城牆同樣高的小山。蜀軍便很快地由小山翻牆攻入城寨內。
由於兵力相差懸殊,朵思大王的防禦軍隊,很快就遭到殲滅,朵思大王也死在亂軍中。
在銀坑山本寨的孟獲,獲知三方河兵敗消息,大為吃驚,下令祝融氏和木鹿大王,進入三江平原,準備進行會戰。
張嶷和馬忠的部隊首先進入平原區,立刻遭到祝融夫人的襲擊,雖然呂凱《平蠻指掌圖》中,對祝融氏的作戰方法有詳細解釋。但第一次面對飛刀和火箭的攻擊,張嶷和馬忠被打得大敗,張嶷更因而被擒。
聽到蜀軍大敗,接應的趙雲和魏延大為吃驚,這兩位身經百戰的老將軍,便研擬對付祝融夫人的作戰密策。隔日,由趙雲先行前來挑戰,當祝融夫人發動攻勢時,趙雲即下令撤退,祝融夫人乘勝追擊。但魏延又接著由另一路向祝融氏挑戰,雙方初接觸,魏延又往後撤軍,祝融氏殺得興起,狠追猛打。一直進入山麓邊,魏延突然回身迎戰,祝融氏親自取飛刀襲擊魏延,但被魏延揮刀擋落,祝融氏正要再度發動攻勢,不妨趙雲突由徹面率軍攻來,蠻軍立刻陷入大亂,祝融夫人慌亂中,竟為趙雲所擒。
孟獲在接獲祝融氏大敗的消息後,大驚失色,立刻下令木鹿大王催動野獸軍團出戰反擊。由於趙雲和魏延從未見過如此軍團,不趕應戰,立刻退回大本營向諸葛亮請罪。
諸葛亮陷入深思,經過數天的準備,他想通了對付野獸軍團的方法。
諸葛亮下令全軍各帶草束一把,當木鹿大王的野獸軍團發動攻擊時,蜀軍點燃草束,以煙火反擊野獸。野獸看見煙火立刻陷入混亂,趙雲和魏延乘勢追殺,木鹿大王亦死於亂軍中。
在大本營中的諸葛亮,突然接獲傳報,有蠻族領袖,押解孟獲兄弟前來投降。諸葛亮下令開營寨大門,迎入投降隊伍。
但在領頭的酋長,押著全身綁著大繩的孟獲、孟優兄弟一踏進營門,負責防衛的關索突下令關門,並命侍衛隊突擊並逮捕了投降行列及孟獲兄弟。
諸葛亮下令搜身,果然投降行列及孟獲兄弟身上均暗藏短刃,打算假裝投降,進入營寨直接襲殺諸葛亮,沒想到仍被識破,全部成為俘虜。
諸葛亮問道:「這回總該服氣了吧!」
孟獲答道:「是我自己主動來讓你俘虜的,不是你的本領,當然仍不服氣。」
諸葛亮又無條件釋放了孟獲。

URL://七擒七縱
armour
I am sorry for posting but not translating a clumsy Chinese story "Seven Captures and Let Go七擒七縱" here. As you can see, it's very long. But if any member who can't read Chinese but interesting in translated version, let me know. I would find time to translate it.
Yang Zongbao
That's not exactly the equivalent of "fire bulls" we have been talking about though. Moreover, the account is a fictional one and not representative of actual use by the armies of the time.

Also, I have shortened it to the sixth capture and release, as that's the only part that was partially germane to the discussion.

For members who wish to read the story, it can be found in www.threekingdoms.com
Tibet Libre
QUOTE (General_Zhaoyun @ Jun 5 2008, 12:30 AM) *
Does anyone knows of any major battle or warfare involving fire bull attack?


The use of animal missiles had a long tradition in ancient warfare. The basic concept always remained the same: Madden animals by fire so that they plunge into enemy ranks and cause chaos. Hannibal did it with fire oxen against the Romans, the Megarians with fire swines (against Pyrrhos elephants), and Timur with fire camels against the Delhi caliphate.
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