I'm doing research lately on Taijiquan (Tai Chi) and was surprised to find a lot of authoritarianism in Taiji groups, particularly in the ones I've encountered in New York.

What I mean is I've come across stuff like students worshiping their masters as semi-divine, a lot of myth-making about the benefits and purpose of the practice, and a great deal of masters making up things about other famous Taiji teachers (and about themselves) to create false lineages, undermine reputations, and enhance prestige. The amount of internal bickering and ridiculous claims around Chang Man-ch'ing, for example, is just stunning. Not very Daoist, you'd think.

Maybe I'm wrong about all this, I'd love to chat it up with people about specific points and give examples, but does anybody else have similar experiences with this sort of authoritarianism in Taiji, especially in parts of the world other than New York? Or ideas about the origins of this authoritarianism in the practice?

It depends on what kind of groups you are with. There are groups that are martial arts oriented and very straight in teaching, just like if you are taking Tae Kwon Do, or Shaolin. These group usually preaches less theory but more practice. On the other extreme, there are groups that leans toward occult practices and (邪道 Xie Dao) with lot of weird theories and put some ridiculous demand on the students. They can perform unexpainable fit or even some magic (like helping you attaing higher energy by beating a piece of wood in front while you meditate) haha ...Stay away from them...

But the internal bickering and lineage claims are pretty common in different dgree in different Taiji groups...Listen but do not take to heart, just practice yout Taiji!

Yep, there's a lot of people who're more concerned with the occult and spiritual which is funny, because Taichi was a fighting art and not an "exercise" really. However, my teacher displayed the other characteristics, though his students did something to water down his semi divinity a bit.

I think it's because a lot of these teachers (and consequently, today's Martial Arts culture) are more vernacular (rather than educated) in their culture. Thus you see more bickering and expediency.

LOTS of Pattie opinions to follow!!

My wife taught Yang style Tai Chi for 15 years (before anime subsumed her life ) and I can recall many a conversation regarding the Tai Chi boards she moderated.

The thing that stuck with me most was the idea that since there's no clear ranking (i.e. colored belts, et al) in a form like Tai Chi, the importance of paternity filled this void; i.e. If my teacher has a longer, unbroken lineage than yours, then surely my Tai Chi is superior based on longevity. (And what's more divine than something that's truly ancient? Hence the semi-divine moniker.)

Proving this would, of course, involve me yelling louder and longer than you, of pointing out the flaws in your chosen form (as compared to mine) and eventually the playground challenge of 'My teacher can snap your teacher like a twig using nothing but peng!'

(Pattie edit via the wife's pointing out my poor spelling skills.)

Once that argument was dealt with, we would then pick apart styles, the importance (or not) of developing jing, regulating (or not) chi, which application is more effective/prettier/martial. Why each application was better than yours and why my teacher is better able to teach it...owing to his being a 15th generation practitioner!

Repeat.

I agree with taiji in motion. Practice your Tai Chi and keep an eye out for like-minded players. I'm sure they're out there.

Ha Ha, I do not usually enter into martial arts threads, but today I was having a private conversation about taichi and karate with a member and so this thread is hitting on a subject that is on my mind.

I too agree with taiji in motion. I can not say I am a practitioner of taichi, but want to be. I have been doing a good deal of reading and have been looking for a "master" or just a good instructor for many years.
So far I have found no one in my area who I have clicked with. One of the problems I have have had in practicing on my own, is as of yet I have not found a book that I felt was not espousing just the arguments that Pattie , Yang Zongbao, and taiji in motion described. each book is thumping its chest as to it being the best. I do my own style( which I have done long before I knew what Taichi was,) and am happy enough with that but I would like to find a good instructor.
I have run across only one Taichi instuctor in my area and he laughable. Teaching at an old folks home and local children.. He bills himself as teaching "Christian" taichi thus avoiding all the magical or as the redneck parents see as sinful aspects. He did nothing but teach the form with no substance.

I found one other guy in Toledo, who appeared to be a svengali, he had a group of women following him around like school girls. I know where he was getting his Qi, and had no intention of joining in as another of his groupies.

It also depends on which style of taichi you are refering to.
With Yang styles there seem to be more bickering.
With other styles the living heads and living linages are alot more solid.
The Chen family, Wu family (etc.) knows who the linage heads are and are well known within the Chinese martial art association and martial art circles. No dispute there.

IMOP
I'm against worshiping ones teacher as "divine beings" it gets pretty cultish at that point. Showing general respect to one's teacher & courtesy of course is appropriate.

Most of the internal bickering seems to come from North America (or North Americans) its seldom heard of in China. Unfortunately you also have alot of pseudo teachers and people trying to make money. The best approach I think is just to train under different teachers or schools and make your own assesment for yourself only.

As for Daoists. I honestly dont think there are many true Daoists in North America (of course there are some genuine & serious devotees). There are alot of wannabe pseudo Daoists who do not have the true spirit of Taoism in them. They are only Daoist by name only unfortunately.

Okay, so lots of good points, but more questions:

1) In re: Freddy1's comment--is it that authoritarianism, is particular to certain forms, or just to certain masters. I've noticed a lot of authoritarianism in Yang school, too, but also noticed that all of those authoritarian Yang form practitioners either studied under (or are a student of somebody who studied under) Cheng Man-ch'ing (鄭曼青). Of course, almost everybody doing Taiji in the U.S. these days tries to claim SOME lineage to Cheng, but is there something about him in particular or his teaching style that contributed to this? Anybody know?

2) I agree that North Americans might be more disposed towards bickering and idol worship, but is it really "seldom heard of in China" or just seldom talked about? Or just that Taiji has really become little more than a retirement activity in China--morning exercises for the elderly?

3) Yang Zongbao: Is Taiji really a fighting art? I mean there are two questions here:

a ) What is the purpose of Taiji? The exercises really have little to do with fighting or self-defense (or, at least, if you really wanted to be good at those things I doubt you'd choose to study Taiji), but "internal cultivation"--well, everyone has a different definition of what it is and what it's for.
b ) What are the historical roots of Taiji? Is it just an offshoot of Shaolin? Or is it some sort of esoteric ritualism. People say a lot about the roots of Taiji, but more of it is obviously myth and myth-making(a la the authoritarian vein)--anybody got a line on an evidentially supported history of Taiji?

This goes back to Kaiselin's comment about teaching the form with no substance and Freddy1's about there being few true Daoists. I mean what is the substance, and what is Daoism? A lot of religious Daoism is semi-mystical folk worship (with Laozi as some sort of deity) and really has nothing to do with philosophical Daoism, which few people really seem to want to understand beyond a superficial level, anyways. What is the substance of Taiji?

Pattie - Good point about the rankings! What were your wife's comments about the Taiji boards that she moderated?

I am looking for something more then just a set kata of movements to keep my old joints from stiffening up. which was all one instructor was selling. I have a fine routine of stretches and isometric exercises that I like quite well already. And I am not sold on direct lineages or claims of supernatural feats. But I do think that being taught by someone who can show not only credentials but real examples of expertise might make me more interested in learning from them. Somewhere between philosophical Daoism and pure magical Daoism there is a style I am looking for. Being Asian is not a guarantee the instructor is good. I have meet way more fakes in martial arts then the real thing. I once met a person in a chance meeting, who understood and used Qi for healing. It was long before I had any interest in China or Taichi. I used the word chance, but I wonder just how much of that meeting started me looking towards China for some of my life questions. After that experience I have a good idea of what I am looking for and know I have not met anyone yet who I would take training from. I can not describe the substance I am looking for... you just recognize it when it is there.

I'm not sure I understood what you are saying Lin Lang. You lost me.
What do you mean by authoritarianism here? Are you refering to tai chi form standardization? or Are you refering to teachers who are acting like authoritarian dictators? Or do you mean authority as in linage holder of a particular style?



I dont know if thats true. There are alot of good tai chi teachers (some comming from China) that makes no reference to Cheng Man Ching or claim any association with him at all.



(It depends on what you mean by authorization)
It should be noted Cheng Man Ching also created a Yang style tai chi form of his own making that is not associated with the traditional yang style forms.



Both I would think. But its probably better to ask someone who is living in China or has lived in China.


Taichi is often a retirement activity in China but its NOT soley practiced as a retirement activity. There are Tai chi competition in China as well (eg push hand).

What is the substance of Taiji? Haha, it is everything and nothing at all, it is the limitless universe contained in a needle tip...

Taiji quan on the other hand is a system of martial arts that has Taiji principles and interpretation/application of these principles in its root. It started out as a martial art but developed into other usages such as today health exercise activities. There are multiple schools of Taiji Quan including those that spread to No America/Europe. Since it is always very difficult to explain what Taiji is, anything related to Taiji is also difficult to get standardized and get everybody agreed on, therefore the bickering. However, this Olympics will have Taiji quan competition, maybe it's the 56-forms, a form that contains various schools.

Look! More Pattie-paraphrasing the wife!!

When taught correctly, Tai Chi is about as martial as you can get. Ever notice there are no sparing events in Tai Chi? People will perform their form, but not interact with another player (except when playing push-hands). The reason is, Tai Chi is all about getting your opponent immobilized as quickly as possible so that you can run like hell.

In the very pretty step, "Play the Pipa" you're actually breaking your opponent's arm. Wave Hands like Clouds is warding off blows, and with High Pat on Horse you're going for the eyes.

Ah...moving meditation...with a twist. ^__^



http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/TCCli...group&slk=1

She's no longer actively posting, but does her share of slapping when the need arises.

I'd contest that.

Taichi is also about defeating the opponent handily. Back at my Taichi classes, the push hands competitions between the senior students and the teacher were quite something to watch. I've been sent flying, had my joints locked, etc. No, I wouldn't say it's about the immobilization to run--they fight to win, from what I see.

Mmhmm, that's the way we were taught too. However, my teacher did have his share of spats when he was young--and they were quite brutal too! It is in those cases that I don't quite believe that the objective was to immobilize and run. My teacher seemed to be awfully free with bone breaking and smashing people into the ground in some of the more serious ones.

Basically, my thesis is that Taichi is itself a pretty serious fighting art that was not used merely to defend, but as a very viable, very powerful offensive method. My problem was more with the "run like hell" aspect. Sure, we were not taught to pick fights. But immobilization was not the end in my class for the high level students (even if we wouldn't go as far as breaking bones or people). It was very clear that running was in no part of the plan to the students of my class.

But I myself have always been more interested in history than learning Taichi (which, while I admire and appreciate now having done away with biases, was not really for me at this age and under this forced regimen), so I can't claim to be a superman myself. My posts are more a mix of observation, accounts of past fights, and oral teaching in class. (I've never been superb with the actual implementation, but I think I've been on the receiving end enough to know the power!)