caocao74
Feb 24 2005, 08:11 AM
Last night I saw on BBC2 the episode of 'What the Ancients Did For Us' about China. Among features on silk, flamethrowers, gunpowder, paper, calligraphy, printing, attempts at flight, bridges, and seismographic equipment, there was the briefest of mentions for paper armour (with a silk backing).
Is this correct, and if so, how widespread was its usage and when?
Wujiang
Feb 24 2005, 11:10 AM
QUOTE(caocao74 @ Feb 24 2005, 07:11 AM)
Last night I saw on BBC2 the episode of 'What the Ancients Did For Us' about China. Among features on silk, flamethrowers, gunpowder, paper, calligraphy, printing, attempts at flight, bridges, and seismographic equipment, there was the briefest of mentions for paper armour (with a silk backing).
Is this correct, and if so, how widespread was its usage and when?
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A small section from my Chinese Armour essay
Zhijia (纸甲), or paper armour originated during the Tang dynasty. It was said that this form of armour was made during the reign of Tangyizong (859 – 873 CE). During the Song-Hsia Wars, thirty thousand of this form of armour was made and worn by the besieged archers of the Song dynasty in the fortress in Shanxi. It was made from a form of processed paper being one to three inches thick. Under wet conditions such as rain the material would turn even tougher making it a valuable form of defence against arrows. This was an important tactical advantage of paper armour as metal armour, despite providing a much better protection, would rust under these conditions. Other advantages of this form of armour includes its lightness allowing perhaps the greatest form of mobility among all armour styles. Lightness was essential and hence the paper armour being one of the more preferred form of armour in areas of the south where there are a large amount of rivers and forests. During the campaign by General Qi Jiguang against the Japanese pirates, a large number of his troops wore this form of armour as it was effective against the firearms of the time. In addition, it was extremely flexible as well as cheap to produce.
TMPikachu
Feb 24 2005, 12:00 PM
have any people tried to recreate it?
I guess it would be sorta like a modern day flak vest.
Long Dragon
Feb 25 2005, 09:53 AM
i saw the programme to, they made some paper mache armour, and shot a chinese style recurve at a dummy wearing it, althought the presenter is a bad arhcer,lol, he hit teh target at close range on the third attempt, it stopped the arrow
Wujiang
Feb 25 2005, 12:21 PM
Found it.
Although there is no support for this claim, this image seems to indicate that the paper armour used lamellar type construction......
TMPikachu
Feb 25 2005, 02:36 PM
Those look like scales to me.
I have the book that image is in. So, is that look where the head fits through? Then this paper armor would be of the simplest pattern, a front and back.
Yun
Feb 25 2005, 10:47 PM
Yes, that pic is from the Wubei Zhi of the Ming and looks more like paper scales on a backing of leather. I don't agree with Robinson's view in "Oriental Armour", however, that the standard Chinese armour was scale rather than lamellar.
TMPikachu
Feb 25 2005, 11:34 PM
QUOTE(Yun @ Feb 25 2005, 10:47 PM)
Yes, that pic is from the Wubei Zhi of the Ming and looks more like paper scales on a backing of leather. I don't agree with Robinson's view in "Oriental Armour", however, that the standard Chinese armour was scale rather than lamellar.
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Does he say that? I ought to check again. I do see him mentioning that scale remained around for a long long time. That I sorta disagree with. I can see it for ceremonial/fancy lookin' armor, but lamellar's just better for fighting. He doesn't get mountan-pattern-scale right either (though the 'lion armor' picture is neat)
thirdgumi
Mar 2 2005, 03:41 AM
Did they mension if it is easy to burn?
TMPikachu
Mar 2 2005, 04:50 PM
I've read that it's stronger when damp/wet, the paper armor. If it's wet, then it would be hard to burn.
thirdgumi
Mar 2 2005, 08:23 PM
QUOTE(TMPikachu @ Mar 2 2005, 09:50 PM)
I've read that it's stronger when damp/wet, the paper armor. If it's wet, then it would be hard to burn.
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So, did they always keep it wet?
TMPikachu
Mar 2 2005, 09:55 PM
that, I don't know. The account just mentioned wetness. I doubt they would keep it wet all the time, as it wouldn't be very comfortable.
Wujiang
Mar 3 2005, 06:15 AM
Paper armour was used mainly in the south where they are lots of rivers, swamps and other damp enviornments, and it rains alot too. So the armour would have had a nature level of wetness just by being there.
Moose
Mar 3 2005, 06:15 AM
I would rather wear an uncomfortable wet armour and be alive than to wear comfortable dry armour and be covered with arrows like a porcupine.
Moose
Mar 3 2005, 06:17 AM
QUOTE(TMPikachu @ Mar 2 2005, 03:50 PM)
I've read that it's stronger when damp/wet, the paper armor. If it's wet, then it would be hard to burn.
[snapback]4703092[/snapback]
That makes the armour excellent for use during rainy battles.
TMPikachu
Mar 3 2005, 06:17 PM
QUOTE(Wujiang @ Mar 3 2005, 06:15 AM)
Paper armour was used mainly in the south where they are lots of rivers, swamps and other damp enviornments, and it rains alot too. So the armour would have had a nature level of wetness just by being there.
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I've heard the best paper comes from Korea though. Maybe they shipped it south...
thirdgumi
Mar 7 2005, 08:19 AM
QUOTE
I would rather wear an uncomfortable wet armour and be alive than to wear comfortable dry armour and be covered with arrows like a porcupine.
Or burnt alive.
Altaica Militarica
May 13 2005, 08:50 AM
Dear Collegues,
I have read this trend. I am to say that Koreans used to wear "paper armour" in XV centure (Korean "jigab") too.
According to the "Sejong Daewang shillok" the armour was done as usual Korean armour in the shape of "turumagi" - the traditional Korean robe. It does not differ from usual "soo un gab" or "p'eegab" by the style so they were represented in the original text by the same picture.
The scales were made of Korean high density paper folded several times and were painted with red, black or green laquer and joint together by smoked thongs of deer skin.
But according to the ballistic experiments of US Army Ballistic Center even the iron & bronze plates were pierced by arrows of good composite bow of Asian type. Only the felt lining allowed the soldier to avoid the serious wound as the arrowheads were stopped only by thick felt plate after being penetrated for 2-5 mm. through the iron/bronze scale.
How did these paper armours work in the battle?
Best regards,
Alexey.
TMPikachu
May 13 2005, 11:44 AM
did it offer protection against bladed weapons?
are there any surviving examples?
Altaica Militarica
May 14 2005, 06:33 AM
QUOTE(TMPikachu @ May 13 2005, 10:44 AM)
did it offer protection against bladed weapons?
are there any surviving examples?
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Koreans have only few samples of real survivng armour. There are brigandine type armours mainly. Some fabric armour & mail survive too. But these artifacts are of XVIII-XIX centures. I can not attach any images as I have no quota to do so.
Regarding the edged weapon - I have no good ideas regarding this matter. But I think paper scales woud not stay for even dao strike, not the panzershtekker or something lilke that.
Try to look through this WEB-site:
http://www.swords.pe.krbut it looks to be shut down.
Best regards,
Alexey.
Altaica Militarica
May 23 2005, 08:14 AM
Please look at this armour. It is a common model of early Chosun armour made of iron, leather or laquered paper lamellae.
Regards,
ALexey.
TMPikachu
May 23 2005, 05:59 PM
are the arm guards sleeves, or do they only cover the top?
the plates on the side, what guards are those, armpit? Neck?
Altaica Militarica
May 24 2005, 01:34 AM
QUOTE(TMPikachu @ May 23 2005, 04:59 PM)
are the arm guards sleeves, or do they only cover the top?
the plates on the side, what guards are those, armpit? Neck?
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It is robe-modeled traditional Korean armour (XV) with sleeves, not shoulder-protector.
The upper band is the collar of armour to guard one's neck and the 2 small pcs on the right side are the arm-pit protectors.
Best regards,
Alexey.
Altaica Militarica
Jun 1 2005, 12:13 AM
QUOTE(TMPikachu @ Mar 2 2005, 03:50 PM)
I've read that it's stronger when damp/wet, the paper armor. If it's wet, then it would be hard to burn.
[snapback]4703092[/snapback]
According to the Encyclopedia of Korean National Culture the scales were soacked in salt water after lacquering and before assembly of the coat of armour. Of course they were quite dry when in usage

Best regards,
Alexey.
kurukku
Apr 1 2007, 03:30 AM
Has anybody any pictures of such armour? The attachments in this thread are missing.
naruwan
Apr 1 2007, 12:09 PM
I can wear a double layered Ci-Hai 辭海. I think that's be a very effective armour aside from being balky and heavy.
ghostexorcist
Apr 28 2007, 01:15 PM
QUOTE(Wujiang @ Feb 24 2005, 11:10 AM) [snapback]4702244[/snapback]
A small section from my Chinese Armour essay
Zhijia (纸甲), or paper armour originated during the Tang dynasty. It was said that this form of armour was made during the reign of Tangyizong (859 – 873 CE). During the Song-Hsia Wars, thirty thousand of this form of armour was made and worn by the besieged archers of the Song dynasty in the fortress in Shanxi. It was made from a form of processed paper being one to three inches thick. Under wet conditions such as rain the material would turn even tougher making it a valuable form of defence against arrows. This was an important tactical advantage of paper armour as metal armour, despite providing a much better protection, would rust under these conditions. Other advantages of this form of armour includes its lightness allowing perhaps the greatest form of mobility among all armour styles. Lightness was essential and hence the paper armour being one of the more preferred form of armour in areas of the south where there are a large amount of rivers and forests. During the campaign by General Qi Jiguang against the Japanese pirates, a large number of his troops wore this form of armour as it was effective against the firearms of the time. In addition, it was extremely flexible as well as cheap to produce.
Page 186 of the book
Law and Order in Sung China (ISBN 0-521-41121-1) mentions how paper armor was sometimes given to archers in the service of the sheriff.
Could we get some pics of the armor on this thread? It seems those that were previously posted are no longer visible.
Billwaa
Apr 29 2007, 08:49 PM
oh, nice. Paper armor. Even though I haven't really heard of this before, but it seems like it would work and possible. I knew that Chinese had done much with paper. For example, for military use, Kite, to measure the distance between their stand point and the enemy positions... Therefore, I wouldn't doubt if they have paper armor back then.
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