Hi All

I need some help here, I hope somone can assist with identifying the era where this cloth is from.

This silk cloth is passed down from many generations in my family. I belive it dates back to the Qing or maybe Ming, but can't be sure.

It belong to my great, great, ..., great grandfather and he was some sort an official of the court/magistrate/governor. We are not sure what the official title/rank is. Basically this cloth was part of his uniform/attire symbolising his position.

Question I like to know is whether this is a Qing or Ming Era. And also, if anyone can tell me more about this piece of silk cloth (eg. design, origin, timeline) it would greatly help us to solve a family mystery. Grandfather always have this silk cloth out on the altar during special occassions (marriage) and festivals (CNY).

Attached is a pic of the cloth. I post more pic later

Many thanks
Gintze

Pic2

Pic3


Pic4

I was expecting to see a square civil servant badge with a type of bird on it indicating the scholars rank or military badge with its identifying animal, but what you show looks like the front of an imperial robe. I believe that it was only the Emperor and his immediate family who could wear the dragon with its face looking directly at you like the dragon in the first picture is doing.

You can see a seam that is going down the center of the fabric indicating this was either the front center or back center of the robe.

I am not sure who else was allowed to wear this design. Perhaps high officials, but I think it has to be someone closely related to the Emperors family.

This does not mean that you are related to an emperor ( of course it doesn't rule it out either.) No disrespect for your ancestors and the story your grandfather passed to you, but there is the chance this fabric has an interesting story on how it came to be in your families possession that was forgotten over the years.

Hi Gin, this looks looks like part of a robe and certainly has some age. I would guess late Qing by the style and worn by someone of means. This needs a proper hands on examination to be sure. Hard to tell from the pictures but if the dragon has five toes then it may be an Imperial robe worn by someone connected to the court. Imperial robes are usually mainly yellow in colour if worn by the Emperor. Only Imperial dragons were allowed 5 toes. Ordinary Chinese dragons worn by all others have four toes. If this has some age then there is likely some deterioration in the silk and may be fragile so look after it.

Regards
Paul

The dragons are definitely only four clawed. but the center one is sewn so that the pearl in its two front claws looks almost like a fifth claw.over the pearl, but it really is nothing but the pearl sewn too close to the claw I read that sometimes this was done in an attempt to give the impression of the fifth claw without making it illegal.
the side dragon has four claws, there is no doubt of that

Yes, the silk cloth is very old and worn out. All the dragons on the cloth do have 4 claws. It is sad to see it in a condition it is today. It wasn't like this as I recall as a child, it use to be very well kept, and the gold and silver colour threads was still very glittery. The condition it is now is due to the neglect of one of my cousin after the passing of my grandparents. It was cast out in the open to be dumped until my aunt saved it. She was in shock and horrified when she saw what was in the pile of rubbish.

I’ve since framed it and it is now hanging on one of my wall. I’m planning to put a small plague on it but will need some help from you all to get more info on this.

Thanks again.

GinTze

Hi Gin, sad to hear what has happened. The unfortunate thing about silk is that it will continue to deteriorate if not stored correctly. Even if framed, the colours will fade quickly as light is a great enemy of old silk. The threads will loosen, become fragile and break due to weight pressure by hanging. The best way to store this is by covering with acid free paper and rolling it up without creases and put in a dark dry place. Then you can take it out for a few days or so to display on special occasions. This way it will preserve well and stop the decline. As for the the age of this it is quite difficult to tell without examination. I base my dating on the busy regular design which is more typical of Guangxu period. It could be a little older but not as old as Ming IMO. I think it would nicely fit in the period of No 4 great grandfather. If he wore this it was likely new when he acquired it. If you can find out when he lived then you may be close to the true date.
Regards
Paul

Hi Gin,
I am so glad changsham advised you to take the cloth out of a frame. As tempting as it may be to display it, He is 100% correct about how to save this cloth.

Do not hang it and most certainly do not expose it to light. Changsham is correct about it fading and red will fade very quickly.

Following his instructions will not only help to save the clothe but it will also preserve the ritual that your grandparents preformed at holidays. To have it hanging ( even in a place of honor) actually decreases the honor and makes it just as common as any other picture you would see in a house on any given day.

When you only see it a couple of times a year as you take it out if its special box, and gently lay the roll on a table to unroll it it becomes ritual. This increases the experience a hundred fold. If you have children or nieces and nephews, or just guests there when you do this, it will convey the honor and reverence you should have to this heirloom.

You might also concider wearing clean white gloves when touching the clothe itself so that no more oils and dirt are added to it. I would bring it to a local museum and see if they have a fabric specialist who might be able to help you preserve the cloth.
As far as which grandfather it belonged to. that depends on how old you are. If you are young you might add another generation( or two) to that estimate. If you are in your 40s or older you might want to subtract one.

Good luck on finding your genealogy and shame on your nephew for throwing the cloth out.

Greetings , the first look of this cloth reminds me of the Qing eunuch's dragon robes. Does it have to do with the robes they once wore ?

Hi Gin

Thanks for sharing the pictures, this rich, raised design brocade is indeed awesome!

Depending also on the size of the silk cloth, it could be a wall hanging or some home furnishing coverings.. should dates back to the early 18th century and judging from the 4 claw dragon, it would have been used in the home of a wealthy nobleman or mandarin.

The advice on care and maintenance of the silk cloth given earlier by our members are good. I read from a resource that if the piece is to be framed it should be mounted on acid-free mat board. If the mat board is not acid free, the cut edges of the board will discolor after a few years. Moisture can also be trapped behind the glass and will cause the piece to grow mould. The frame should not be facing direct sunlight, as even weak sun will fade the cloth quite rapidly. And if you feel that the piece is safer behind glass, then the glass does not touch the object, leaving at least a 1cm gap.

Ideally it should be stored away from UV and be taken out for only a few times a year. This will give you and your family added enjoyment and preserving the history of this silk piece for generations to come.