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China History Forum, Chinese History Forum > Chinese History By Dynasty Period > Sui and Tang
Non-Han Nan Ban
Hi all,

A while back I lifted the (English) Wikipedia article on Tang Dynasty from crappy "B" level status to elite "Featured" status and hope it remains so. Recently, a fellow Wikipedian added a large map to the article and the following textual information:

QUOTE
During Emperor Taizong's rule the Tang Empire was effectively a federation that consisted of the Eastern and Western Gokturk khanates, the Kingdom of Tibet, and the Chinese empire. He served as Emperor of China, Tibet, and Khagan of the Turks at the same time, though it did not last very long. It consisted of a centralized Chinese government with Emperor Taizong as head of state over local Turk and Mongol khans, their kurultais, and the Tibetan king upholding regional governments.


Is it accurate to call the system headed by Taizong a federation? Moreover, which scholar asserts that it was or describes it as a federation. I say this because this user did not bother citing a source(s) which he used to write this passage. The Gokturks certainly pledged fealty to Taizong as their khagan, and Tibet was part of the Tang's tributary system (when they weren't battling with the Tang over Central Asia and access to the Silk Road). But a federation? I want to know how scholars classify the relationship between Tang China, Tibet, and the submitted Gokturks.

Thanks
Eric
Anthrophobia
I know the northern khanates hailed TaiZong as their emperor for a time, but Tibet? I'm not so sure about that.
Yun
http://ccs.ncl.edu.tw/Chinese_studies_21_1/413-433.pdf

The above Chinese-language article is a relatively good study of the Tangri Kaghan ('Heavenly Kaghan') issue. The author Zhu Zhenhong was a PhD candidate in Taiwan, and while he uses some concepts that I don't agree with, I think he gives enough evidence that Taizong was not the only Tang emperor to hold the title Tangri Kaghan. Xuanzong was addressed by that title by the rulers of the Turks, Uyghurs, and Central Asian states, while Suzong and Daizong were addressed as Tangri Kaghan by the Uyghur kaghans. Furthermore, Taizong was not even the first Chinese emperor to be given the title Kaghan by a Turkish faction. Sui Wendi received the title Sage Bayan Kaghan 圣人莫缘可汗 from his Gokturk vassal Qimin Kaghan 启民可汗, and Sui Yangdi received the similar title Sage Kaghan 圣人可汗 from Chuluo Kaghan 处罗可汗 of the Western Turks.

Borjigin Ayurbawarda is probably the best member to ask about Tang-Tibetan relations, but I don't think Songtsan Gampo saw himself as Taizong's subject or vassal even after he married a Tang princess. Certainly Songtsan's successors did not see themselves to be under Tang authority, as clearly evidenced by the numerous wars between the Tang and Tibetan empires following Songtsan's reign.

As for calling the Tang empire under Taizong "effectively a federation", that seems quite anachronistic. I wonder if the writer really considered the characteristics of federations in modern political terminology. In what sense could we consider Tang authority over the Turks to be 'federal'? Did the Turks lose the right to conduct their own foreign relations, or to have their own armies? Were Tang 'federal officials' and armies stationed in the steppe to enforce Tang law? Was the Tang Code in any way equivalent to a federal constitution, and did it say anything at all about the status and rights of the Turks?
Non-Han Nan Ban
QUOTE
As for calling the Tang empire under Taizong "effectively a federation", that seems quite anachronistic. I wonder if the writer really considered the characteristics of federations in modern political terminology. In what sense could we consider Tang authority over the Turks to be 'federal'? Did the Turks lose the right to conduct their own foreign relations, or to have their own armies? Were Tang 'federal officials' and armies stationed in the steppe to enforce Tang law? Was the Tang Code in any way equivalent to a federal constitution, and did it say anything at all about the status and rights of the Turks?


I doubt it, which is why I smelled BS from the beginning. I hid his work for now and will give that user time to add necessary sources, if he ever used a source to begin with.

QUOTE
I know the northern khanates hailed TaiZong as their emperor for a time, but Tibet? I'm not so sure about that.


Exactly.

Eric (En Rui)
Borjigin Ayurbarwada
QUOTE
Is it accurate to call the system headed by Taizong a federation? Moreover, which scholar asserts that it was or describes it as a federation. I say this because this user did not bother citing a source(s) which he used to write this passage. The Gokturks certainly pledged fealty to Taizong as their khagan, and Tibet was part of the Tang's tributary system (when they weren't battling with the Tang over Central Asia and access to the Silk Road). But a federation? I want to know how scholars classify the relationship between Tang China, Tibet, and the submitted Gokturks.


Whether the heavenly khaghan "empire" formed a federation is actually hotly debated in the Chinese and Japanese academic community. There are published books such as the Heavenly khaghan administrative system by Lin Tianwei 林天蔚的《天可汗制度》, Luo Xianglin's (Tang dynasty heavenly kaghan administration study),
罗香林《唐代天可汗制度考》and Yao Dazhong's "the functions of the heavenly kaghan international system" The most informative source for this study is the Tong Dian which recorded a speech made by Tang Taizong: "I am the Son of heaven of Tang, but below, I also carry out the duties of Kaghan. “我为大唐天子,又下行可汗事乎?" The common view


The Tang Lu Shu Yi seems to hint that the Tang code at least served as a crude "international law" for the different jimi prefectures. According to the volume 6, “异类相犯者,以法律论”。"mutual hostility between different people(ethnic groups) will be settled by the (Tang) law accordingly. The heavenly kaghan therefore theoretically served both as a sort of "federation" where the Tang emperor was its head for the jimi fuzhou states, as well as an international court(a crude form of the UN) to maintain peace both within the Tang empire and without(including the tributary states like Koguryo and Tuyuhun which were Tang vassals but not under the jimi system). It was once thought that the heavenly kaghan had an administrative system itself, but the fact that this title applied to later Tang emperors like Xuan Zong and Su Zong as well shows that the Heavenly Kaghan might have originally been somewhat of an organization as well as an honorary title that eventually became only an honorary title. This title designate a ruler that was above all other kaghans and fit to rule all.(It is possible that later Uighur rulers adopted the title themselves). In any case, the Tang period appeared to be when a Chinese ruler's prestige reached its zenith. The only other period where a ruler reached such a high prestige in Chinese history was during the Yuan dynasty.

QUOTE
Borjigin Ayurbawarda is probably the best member to ask about Tang-Tibetan relations, but I don't think Songtsan Gampo saw himself as Taizong's subject or vassal even after he married a Tang princess. Certainly Songtsan's successors did not see themselves to be under Tang authority, as clearly evidenced by the numerous wars between the Tang and Tibetan empires following Songtsan's reign.


Its doubtful that any non-confucian vassal states really saw China as its true sovereign, Tibet's situation might have been similar to those of Thailand and Burma's during the Qing dynasty, ritually, they were vassals and in their letter to the emperor, they addressed themselves as such, while the Tang ruler addressed himself as a superior, while the protocol maintained between them also designate a superior inferior status, but in their own court, they treat the Tang as just another state. But the fact that Gampo provided auxiliars to the Tang on 2 different occasions and even wrote to the Tang emperor that he can be counted on for trouble, as well as the Tibetan appeal for Tang aid in their struggle with the Tu yu hun. shows that the early Tang at least exerted some influence over the Tibetan state.
Non-Han Nan Ban
Thank you Borjigin for your long and thoughtful response! I was waiting for your input on this and slowly forgot about this thread. I wanted to get a feel for the depth of the scholarly discussion on this issue, and I'm glad to see that other scholars have weighed in on the issue. I might mention them in the wiki article now.

Speaking of which, Tang Dynasty is on Wikipedia's main page!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_Dynasty

Good stuff. cool.gif

Eric
Yang Zongbao
QUOTE (Non-Han Nan Ban @ Oct 29 2008, 02:05 PM) *
Thank you Borjigin for your long and thoughtful response! I was waiting for your input on this and slowly forgot about this thread. I wanted to get a feel for the depth of the scholarly discussion on this issue, and I'm glad to see that other scholars have weighed in on the issue. I might mention them in the wiki article now.

Speaking of which, Tang Dynasty is on Wikipedia's main page!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_Dynasty

Good stuff. cool.gif

Eric


Another China article catapulted to featured article!

Excellent work.
Pax Americana
QUOTE (Yang Zongbao @ Oct 29 2008, 05:38 PM) *
Another China article catapulted to featured article!

Excellent work.


Wondering if the maps on the following link indicates the extent of Tang's geopolitical influence?


http://tt.mop.com/club/read_2200136.html
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