Here is a project I plan to take up over the next week. I am gathering random image of East Asian people and making an average face. Random actors, politicians, people on the street, etc.

I want to do

male and female

Japan

Koreans

North Chinese

South Chinese

Mongolians

I have already posted someone else's averages of Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese [in that order]

I will focus on men and then try to add Mongol (male and female as well).




Here is what I have for a Japanese Male:



This represents a middle age Japanese male.

My wife thinks he looks "Japanese"...but she said more handsome than the average salary-man. :-) I think that is because I used too many famous people, I will try to adjust the next one accordingly.

He can pass as ' southern ' Han-Chinese,no Koreans have such facial features

He's right. That Japanese face could easily pass as Chinese.

Average Korean Male

LOL...this is true, but any East Asian can pass as Han Chinese...there is way more variation in China than in any East Asian nation so that is not shocking. I studied at Shanghai International University and often Japanese and Korean students (one of my roommates was Japanese the other Korean) were thought to be Chinese by local Shanghai people depending on how they dressed and if they were speaking or not. No big surprise. There is a huge facial distance between someone like Jackie Chan and someone like gong Li...if you did not tell me their names and said they were two different nationalities I'm sure most folks would think that is likely.

Anyway...I will do Southern Chinese next and then Northern if I have time tonight. Tomorrow I will try to do Mongolian women and men.

Which is true.

Allow me to rephrase.

I didn't see as many of the "giveaway" features on the average Japanese face (I usually look for the eyes first, and I think there are some other subtle things). The Korean guy's eyes are a bit more like it.

I would suggest you rule out celebrities. Asians in general, tend to have the same ideals of beauty.. many of these celebrities will tend to have larger eyes, fairer skin, not so flat nose, compared to most others, such as many S.E Asian celebrities. Many E Asian ones tend to have cosmetic surgery too.

I also agree with Long Ma about nearly any Asian's passing as Chinese. The Chinese are so diverse in appearance, due to centuries of assimilating, intermixing with many people, the continuing changes in China's borders and land scapes, and the changing definition of whats Chinese, etc. I can see non-minority Han Chinese who can resemble Vietnamese, Koreans, Japanese, Thais, Mongols and Tibetans, but very rarely say, a Vietnamese resembling a Mongol and vice versa.

Here is the Average Southern Chinese Male

Same logic also applies to nearly all Caucasian-Americans can pass as ' European '.We can match definite similiar facial features & physical built of respective nationalities over there.

The truth is ( has always been ) nearly all Asian people migrated out of what's present day China ( Asia continent to be more political correct not to offend some reject the idea of Chinese origin ).

Average Northern Chinese Face




Composite of Northern and Southern Chinese Faces

My wife took a look at all the average images.

She said that #1 definately looks Japanese.

She said #2 looks more like Koreans but there are Japanese who look like that.

She said #3 (Southern Chinese) does not really look Japanese to her.

She said #4 (Northern Chinese) could be Japanese, but his face is "strange".

#5 (Composite of North and South Chinese) does not look Japanese to her either.

This should not be shocking.

It is obvious North Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese are closely related genetically...and as I posted (and no one had strong evidence to refute) Koreans are closer to Japanese genetically than Chinese (NOrth or South) are...

What is interesting is the Japanese and Korean faces look stereotypical to me, but she is right that we actually know Japanese people who look like the Korean face, they just are not the norm in Japan.


Other things I noticed looking at all these face...

Koreans tend to be lighter than other East Asians and have rounder faces. This can be seen in the male and female Korean face.

I would say that Koreans have slightly smaller eyes...as well..more single lidded.

Japanese appear to have the most narrow faces with high vault, more similar to Caucasian, I guess, their noses also tend to not be as wide (on average). I would say this is due to Ainu admixture. My own personal observation was that Japanese also have more body hair...this would also be due to Ainu/Jomon admixture.

Japanese, on average are lighter than Chinese but darker than Koreans.

Chinese in general have larger eyes than Koreans and Japanese and this is true the further South you go in China. The nose width and roundness of the face increase the further South one travels. One would think the face of Chinese would become rounder like Koreans the further North in China you travel but it does not appear to. Still it is not as narrow as Japanese.

I've noticed hair varies too...Japanese have higher frequency of thicker hair than Koreans, who tend to have much thinner hair...Chinese vary quite a bit...having both, but I would say on average closer to Koreans than Japanese.

I'm not sure what else to make of the pictures other than each population does have a distinct average look, but there is obviously overlap.

I will do the Mongol male and female tomorrow. I would think they look somewhere between Korean and Chinese, but more like Koreans...but still they will also have a distinct appearance.

what software did you use? and what pics did use for chinese, japanese and korean?

those are not your average east asian faces,well,unless you used pics of every chinese or japanese ,then thats another a story.

please,stop misleading people here. take your Pseudo science else where

i am chinese i know what chinese people look like and what other asian people look like.we don't need some non-east asian guy telling us what we supposed look like.

your average north chinese does not look like your photo.same goes to korean and japanese.

here is your average japanese face before and after plastic surgery

How do you define that face as average? That's certainly not what comes to mind when I think Japanese.

he can't. he just used some pics that he selectively used for his Pseudoscience project, and claimed that this is your average (insert) face.

http://www.faceresearch.org/demos/average


I used this free online site.

Pictures...were all google images..searched around for forward face shots, 10 of each nationality, no more than 2 or 3 actors, maybe 2 or 3 politicians...and the rest random people...students...professors, misc people on vacation, etc.

I tried to make it as random as possible. Hardest thing was verifying if someone was Southern Chinese or Northern Chinese...so most of the "Southern Chinese" are politicians from Taiwan or random folks from Hong Kong...a few actors from Hong Kong too. Northern Chinese was harder, a few athletes, students, actors, etc. I think the Northern Chinese sample had more "famous people" like Sun Honglei, Zhang Yimoi, Lang Lang, Liu Xiang (hurdler), and Mao...rest were random...

For Koreans, I used Kim JongIl and that Korean mass murder from Virginia Tech, current and previous Presidents, head of the UN who is Korean...guy from the American TV Show Lost (Danial Dae Kim)LOL...the rest were random...Korean men...no one famous.

Southern Chinese I used..."Long Hair" from Hong Kong, Jackie Chan, Frank Hsieh (Taiwan DDP politician), Jay Chou Lee Deng Hui, Edison Chen...rest were random people from Hong Kong or Guangzhou.

Japanese...I used Sonny Chiba, Junichiro Koizumi, current PM Aso, Ken Watanabe, Koji Yakusho, Ishihara Nobu (politician)....the rest were random Japanese students, business men, etc.

So about half of each sample was purely random...of the ones who were not, about 2/3 were actors and the rest politicians. Politicians don't tend to look especially attractive in Asia...just old men usually. So I don't think the actors through it off much...I tried not to use any "super model" looking people...

Why Dear Cool Z wants to be so nasty and ignorant I have no idea. I guess he is still smarting from the fact he got corrected in his incorrect reading of DNA population tests. Oh well...

Basically the more faces you use the better, I have limited time though.

I once did one for the Average African American face where I did 35 pictures each for male and female...most people I sent it out to agreed they look "average" or like "someone I know..."

Due to time constraints I tried to see what I could come up with.

Typically, at least it is thought...what is attractive is the average face of the society, that does not mean the most beautiful, but fairly attractive. Why? Well what we usually call 'ugly' is due to lack of symmetry or some unusually strange feature.

When you average faces in a population you smooth out any one extreme and you get greater symmetry.

When I originally posted the pictures of the women above (on this site in another thread) almost everyone guessed them correct by nationality, so I think there is obviously something to this.

If someone wants to spend time doing this on their own and post their results, feel free.

liu xiang is from shanghai: south china. mao is from hunan again south china.

jackie chan's parents were from shandong: north china. lee deng hui is half japanese. edison chen is 1/4 english.

Wow..racism comes out doesn't it. LOL Actually I'm referencing all of this with my wife, who actually grew up in East Asia, has been to every nation in the region but North Korean and Mongolia and (like me) routinely associates with other East Asians. I've lived in China for about 6 months, in Shanghai and been to the mainland about 4 times since (Beijing, Shanghai, Chongqing, Harbin, Nanjing and a few smaller places around those bigger cities). I lived in Japan for almost 1.5 years in Tokyo-To but have been as far north as Sendai and as far South as Nagasaki....hit almost every major city in between in the Kansai area. I've also been to South Korea (Seoul and Pusan), Taiwan (only Taibei)...and every place I have lived since 2000, I have had Chinese and Japanese friends (a handful of Koreans). So I'm not just speaking out of my rear end with no background but for books and pictures on the net.

Is this what happens when people are corrected when read DNA testing incorrectly and can't back up what they say? I suggest you get over your ego because this is not about you.

That picture above is...well...ridiculous.

That is one Japanese person.

Have you ever been to Japan?

Have you lived there?

That is one out of 120+ million people. Most Japanese don't look like that guy....

What would be accurate...would be to break Japan up into regions and probably take 50 faces from each region randomly about the same age (maybe 30-40) and average the faces of each region then combine them into one big face.

What that would look like I'm not sure, but I seriously doubt it would be that above.

How is it you concluded that guy is the "average Japanese face"? Based on what? Your extensive knowledge of Japanese people after of living and working in various regions of the country? LOL

Didn't know Jackie Chan's parents were from Shandong, actually searched that. His father was from Shandong, his mother from Wuhan, Heibei. I look him up could not find anything about his family background.

Lee Deng Hui is not half Japanese.

Source please. That's false and a common rumor by mainlands to explain his "love for Japan". He is Hakka (Kejia) on both sides I believe.


Edison Chen may be 1/4 English...I could not find that anywhere. He is only 1/10 of the picture so his "English half" is 1/4 of 1/10...not that significant. Still I can't verify that anywhere...your source is? Only thing I found was on some celeb site it says "Is of Chinese and Macanese (mixed Chinese-Portuguese) descent" but it gives no quote. Portugese-Chinese decent can mean anything...he could be 1/8, 1/16...

Yeah Liu Xiang is from Shanghai...

As I said I had difficulty with the Chinese samples.

In any case, this is why I did a composite of the North and South Chinese samples into one sample, so that is made up of 20 Han people...instead of 10. As you add people individual differences get smoothed out. So if you wish you can use that or you can come up with your own sample.


Also, to make it clear, I never told anyone 'what they are supposed to look like"...to make such a statement is idiotic.

In any population there are averages, but the fact the words "averages" was used obviously means there is variation...what the standard deviation from the average is...is hard to determine...but with enough research one can say there is an average face and there is a certain about of variation which will create overlaps with other populations.

I would think that would be obvious...it is high school stats.

I am not suggesting all East Asians look a certain way or all Japanese look a certain way, if you believe I have said that please quote me.

What ever the average Japanese face for a woman is, I'm pretty sure my wife does not look like that as people (some times even other Japanese) think my wife is Korean...it is an ongoing joke between us that she was "adopted" from a Korean family.

My wife is from rural central Japan and has no known Korean ancestry, both her parents families have lived in the same location at least 400 years or more...however...this is the variation I was talking about. Funny thing is, her younger sister, no one would ever confuse for a Korean...and her older sister looks somewhat in between her and her younger sister....genes are weird. She doesn't look like either of her parents, but looks very much like her father's mother when she was young.

I'm glad you think you know what all Asians look like and can tell all nationalities apart.

This is the last time I will respond to DearCoolZ as I don't have time for nonsense, too old and tired for that.

However, if he wants to display for everyone his superior ability to tell Asian nationalities apart..

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...ans+look+a+like

Go to this thread and do the test and tell us the results. LOL I would love to see this. Do a screenshot of the results and post the image for us to see so we know you did not cheat.

LongMa. DearCoolZ. Play nice.

And no, I will not appreciate backtalk.

The truth is, among East Asian nations (and anywhere in this earth) there is no such thing as "pure" ethnicity. Among Koreans and Japanese they are both a mix of North + South Asian (except that Japanese have also had contact with Polynesians ie Malaysia, Indonesia, Taiwanese aborigines and Phillipines).

We know that in China, people are currently mixing right in front of our own eyes. Example, look at Shenzhen, GD - a new mega city that was created in the 80's by Deng Xiaoping - it is a city full of non-locals originating from all parts of China - mainly from Henan, Hunan and Sichuan. Actually a huge amount are permanent residents instead of migrant workers. Even in medium sized city Taishan, GD (my hometown), i heard from friends that there are many non-locals who come to live and work in the city. But even before this recent migration occured, many Northern Chinese and Southern Chinese still look quite alike, because there was also migration that occured even during Qing & Ming dynasty period [the Hakkas moving into Jiangxi & Guangdong OR Shandong people moving North into Manchuria] and even further back in the Tang and Song dynasty [Han Chinese migrating from Henan to Guangdong during Tang period AND Han Chinese migrating after the fall of the Song from Zhejiang to Guangdong]. Interesting is that the last battle of the Song dynasty was @ Xinhui, Guangdong (Si Yi region - Taishanese speaking area) ^^"

Chinese people are a united people right now, because we are composed of many ancient ethnicities that form the current Han ethnicity..

that's the problem with some of the nationalistic sentiment in this forum
certain members think they know all about a certain race or ethnic group (and even conclude that they should know more because they are also that ethnic group) despite that other ethnic groups of the same race don't agree. I don't think there's very many people here posting from Japan, but many people here posting about Japan and often there are things I don't agree with yet. Probably the biggest one I see is Vietnamese vs Chinese vs Korean nationalism issues, they are all asian, and they certain don't agree with each other over areas of common concern, let alone an "outsider".

yeah, quit the arguing. Its childish really.

Longma - i can tell you used lee deng hui and jackie chan in the southern chinese average face. I see a bit of lee deng hui\\\'s facial structure and I see Jackie\\\'s nose

the software seems pretty interesting, i think i will try it out and post some as well. where did you find the random pics of the faces that you used for the project?

-----------
so, I just did a quick little test on the site. It is rather interesting to mess around with. Anyway, since you have already done adult males I figured I would do male children. I used around 4-5 different faces for each one.

Heres a few for what I got for the average Korean child








a few for what I got for the average Han Chinese child








a few for what I got for the average Japanese child







and a mix of all the Japanese, Chinese, and Korean faces just to see the outcome

I apologize to the board for losing my temper. My goal is simply to try to seek the truth although, as I said above, there are definately flaws in my methods.

I wish I could do as I suggested, go to each country, divide it into regions...go to parks with a survey to verify people's known family origin and take pictures, at least 50 at least place.

I think that would be much more accurate, although not perfect.

The random faces...I just used google or typed in a major city in the region and searched websites for students, etc.

Not exactly accurate, but I used the best judgment I could. Yeah Lee Deng Hui's eyes stand out. :-) there was another guy who had a similar upper part of the face, so it came out strong, that is 2/10 of the image. I need more people...I would prefer at least 30...so no one person will bias the image so much, each will be only about 2.8%.

Like I said, easy for Japanese and Koreans.

Hard to divide Chinese into regions if you don't know specifically their families origins.


----------One comment about your pictures. The kids were cute, especially the first Han kid. One thing my wife and I noticed was that kids and old people tend to look pretty similar.

I think the full features of a person come out by their late teens and then it seems as they get older (like over 60) their features are not as sharp. My wife finds it very hard to tell the nationality of older Asian men.

I post on international black sites and African American sites...same thing.

Actually the Korean and Chinese nationalist are tame compared to people from the Horn of Africa (Ethiopia, Somali) who do everything to prove they are special from every other SubSaharian African. :-) For some reason people from Haiti are quite arrogant (on average)...I don't get it. Then you have black Americans who want to make everyone on earth black, even when Africans don't agree and then they tell the Africa they are victims of colonialism and have been brainwashed. LOL

I see. I just did a quick little test so I was only able to use about 5 different faces per average face. The delineating for each face takes a bit of time.

"Hard to divide Chinese into regions if you don't know specifically their families origins."

I agree. There has been alot of migration in China so alot of the time you will find many non Southern Chinese in South China and vice versa. Of course, you could also use people of Han-Chinese descent from Hong Kong,Singapore,Taiwan,Malaysia,etc.

A note about the faces - I thought your average Korean face looked very "average" Korean. The Southern Chinese had a strong sense of Lee Deng Hui with Jackie's nose as I mentioned earlier , the Northern Chinese face looked a bit similar to the Korean face(I notice that Koreans and Northern Chinese often look similar), while the Japanese face looks pretty Japanese for sure. I do sense a bit of of Ken Watanabe.

"----------One comment about your pictures. The kids were cute, especially the first Han kid. One thing my wife and I noticed was that kids and old people tend to look pretty similar."

kids and old people look similar? Sorry, could you rephrase that. I wasnt quite sure what you meant. What did your wife and you think of the kid's faces? I thought the Korea faces turned out all rather typical Korean. I dont think I would mistake them for Chinese/Japanese. The Japanese faces turned out all rather similar. The Chinese faces had the most variation, probably due to the Chinese having the most genetic variation within their race. The Korean faces had some variation as well while the Japanese kids faces no matter how I messed around with the different Japanese faces came out look pretty much like what you see in those pics I posted. Actually, there were a few more different Chinese faces that varied quite a bit from the 3 I posted but I didnt post them because the site doesnt allow you to post that many pics in one post. I had a few more for the Japanese and Korean kids faces as well but they didnt really vary quite as much as the Han faces. Japanese and Koreans are rather homogenous(more so then the Han Chinese) so you will often get Chinese that look really Japanese, really Korean, or unique. Of course, there is ALOT of overlap between Japanese, Chinese, and Korean faces. Heck, most East Asians cant even tell eachother apart alot of the time. for example, when I went to Japan the Japanese people there thought I was Japanese so they spoke to me in Japanese. When I was in HK, people thought I was HongKongnese. In the Korean market(as well as my friends Korean church) the Koreans thought I was Korean. I think someone posted a little DNA Genetic chart on this forum from Japanese sources that showed that Japanese had a 24.2 percent similarity with Korean DNA and a 25.8 percent similarity with Han Chinese DNA while having only a 4.8 percent uniquely Japanese genetic sequence. I also saw this chart on a program on NHK TV that said that Koreans had some around 30 to 40 percent uniquely Korean DNA while Chinese had around 60 percent which would somewhat explain the variation in the Han Chinese kids faces. Im no expert on DNA and the chart itself is in Japanese so I could be completely misinterpreting it maybe someone who knows Japanese could interepret it better. Anyway, here is the chart I was referring to



someone else posted it on the forum earlier. They said this was the source

Japanese geneticist's DNA info:

source: http://www.kumanolife.com/History/dna.html

And here are the one more set of faces. As you can see, the Japanese face doesnt vary much from the past pictures while the Korean face doesnt vary much either. The Han face varies the most I believe. I got more variation within the Han faces so I will post all those. The rest of the Korean and Japanese faces looked pretty much like the ones I already posted above so I wont bother posting them. I would have done using only Southern Han or Northern Han but as you said earlier, its pretty hard to determine their origin.

Here is the Japanese face



Chinese face









Korean face

Chen:

Thanks for the input, I will respond more later.

Quick note:

That NHK study only did MtDNA...whichis the DNA passed from women to her children...so it is usually traced from mother, to daughter, on down.

It did not take into account any other genes or anything having to do with male ancestry...so it is quite bias. In every population women are more genetically diverse than men...for historical reasons...men didn't mind procreating with various women, but they liked to limit what men procreated with their women...you can see this in history, a long with women taken into slavery, concubines, etc...where men were killed off if they were from outside groups.

What I met to say was my wife and I both have problems telling children apart or old people apart by nationality.

For example, 10 old East Asian men (like over 70) often look much more similar (at least to us) than 10 men who are 30.

here is the average northern chinese face i made



here are the people i used:

4 of them are from the chinese national football team and one is an tv show host




i add 3 more people( including me)












different variations

average of variations

...

I will do a Mongolian male and female tomorrow evening...too much work to do today.

I think I will also post the pictures I used, that is a good idea.

i added a famous comedian: chen peisi from beijing and a famous director jia zhangke from shanxi

in regards to that DNA graph, it is wrong to translate it as "Korean type, etc type". A better translation of it would be "common type in Korea"
In this forum, alot of people use that graph, but a slight mis translation totally changes the meaning.

also the face demo program, I don't know about you guys but it seems that whatever pic you use as the first image, heavily influences the rest of the pics. For you guys using it, try using the same pics, but change the order. The face will look very different.

Yeah, I am not sure who translated the graph from Japanese but I had a feeling the translation wasnt completely correct. But, yeah... I was mainly referring to how I seemed to get more variation within the Han Chinese children's faces while I got less variation with Japanese faces and Korean faces.

i tried using different orders,same result

Wow DearCoolZ, you really like the look of your own face.

The soccer player in the 5th photo ( tag#110594 ) looks typical northern Han-Chinese,he can pass as ' Korean ' not Japanese.

Yeah I would agree with that.



ALL:

Do any of you know good sites to get pictures of Mongolian people? It is very hard to find good pictures on the net...

You're correct. The 5th person can pass as Korean. However, I don't think that kind of phenotype is really that common in northern China.

i think there are crushes here LOL

From what i know, most koreans are probably a mixture of Coastal South-Eastern Chinese (around present day Zhejiang and Shanghai) and Altaic groups from somewhere around North Korea/Manchuria. The reason is because of the korean method of cultivating rice, originates from Southern China. This same group of people, some of them later went to Japan and brought tattoo culture - same method both used by the Yue of Zhejiang and the Japanese people.

Japanese people are for sure a mixture of South-Eastern Chinese, Korean, the aboriginals and the polynesians. The following groups were influencial to current Japanese culture: Chinese -> agriculture, loan words and religion, Koreans -> grammar, Aboriginals and polynesians -> culture [not too sure about this one].

I think you refer to coastal Chinese region of Shandong peninsula,right ??

You seem to assume that technological transfer (rice cultivation) must involve migration and intermixture. Why is that?

Are Russians Orthodox Christians because they are half Greek or significantly Greek in ancestry? NO. The vast majority if Russians have no ancestry from greece and no Slavic ancestry that lived under Greek/Byzantine Rule.

Are the majority of Indonesians or even 1/3 Arab or Persian in ancestry because they are Muslim?

I use Japanese, Korean, and German technology all the time...does that say anything about my ancestry.

Reality is regional and even global trade networks go back thousands of years.

When silver was found in North America and South America by the Spanish and Portuguese it seriously hurt the silver market in India and China...this was in the early 1500s...when the vast majority of Chinese never saw a white man or even heard of the "Americas" they were using "American" silver.

Egyptians widely traded with Greeks, Persians, and various peoples in the Middle East and contributed little or no ancestry to those people, although we can find Egyptian things among their ancient archeological sites and vice versa.

Language is the best example...most people in the world never invented a written language. No one in Europe invented a written languange from scratch...does that mean all Europeans have Phonecian ancestry? Are all SouthEast Asians Indians or mostly Indian?

If most people around me are farmers to some extent and I traded with a people who traded with someone else who found or heard of a new way of farming and I saw the benefit I don't have to marry their daughter or have their sons take over my village for me to seek to emulate it. This is human nature to mimic successful behavior.

There is very little evidence that Japanese people have any Yue evidence and most of it that has been presented on this site is circumstantial as I showed in a post in this section...it is very poorly written evidence. Yue does also not equal Han.

Modern Chinese in those areas, like Fujian are a mixture of Han men and Yue women.

It is like saying Southern French share ancestry with Basque so they are the same people as people in Mexico. Uhm...well there are many people who are of Northern Spaniard ancestry and actually Basque ancestry in Mexico but most of those people also have strong Amerindian ancestry.

What is best is to say that they share some common ancestors.

Yue people (if some moved to Japan) does not make the Japanese "Han" or the Yayoi Han because people from that area over 2,000 years later are Han today.

Is it also an argument for those few insist on strong Korean connection to modern Japanese race & Japonic islands !?

Back then,they weren't referred as ' Yue ' in Japan.I've stumbled upon ( online ) at least one Japanese language book published on Hayato & Kumaso clans were actually ' Chinese Wu-Yue '.

The fact of the matter is,majority of modern Japanese's ancestors ( Wa-jins & Jomon-ins ) were neither Sinic nor Koreanic.So,I've been dumbfounded by some ignorant netizens regard Japanese are basically Koreans

not shandong. But the Yue-Wu area. I remember reading from somewhere that a gov't official was sent to Japan from China - not sure which dynasty - and when that official went to the island of japan, he asked the people their origins, and they mentioned the King of Wu. Which is the Wu Kingdom of present day Southern Jiangsu and possibly northern Zhejiang ? Also i read somewhere that the tatoo culture in Japan was also found among the local Wu people as well.

Here is a similar source -> http://users.tmok.com/~tumble/jpp/japor.html [it's (2) - Classical Chinese literature]

There was also a research that found that an ancient skull found in japan, resembled that of a skull found in Zhejiang.

Also, i found a paragraph from the above source interesting: