Just curious. You know how there are many theories about Caucasians in the Tarim Basin, right?

Has there been any case, besides the Huns, where there are Asians in Europe?

Thank you

The Mongols in 1241, methinks. And of course those torch guys last summer.

Let me count: Avars, Pechenges, Kipchaks, Mongols.

There were also Chinese merchants in cities in various Ruthenian principalities. One of districts in the historical centre of Moscow is called Kitaigorod, which literally means "Chinatown".

Oh, I forgot to say also to not mentioned the Mongols. Sorry, my mistake.

For the Avars, Pechenges, and Kipchaks, did they migrate during the ancient times or during the more later times like the Middle Ages? What about the Chinese in the princpalities?

All these peoples were tribes that came from Asia and subsequently occupied Pontic Steppe in what is today southern Ukraine and southern Russia. In some cases they spread further into heart of Europe. Such was the case of Avars who settled in what is now modern Austria and Hungary. Bulgars also abandoned steppe. They separated onto two factions. One of them ventured further north and founded state later known as Volga Bulgaria. The second faction conquered vast territories on the Balkans. They became thoroughly slavicized and laid foundation to the modern nation known as Bulgarians.

Interestinlgy, some of these “European Asians” had contacts with China before coming to Europe. For example, Avars were known to Chinese as Juan Juan.


As to the presence of Chinese merchants in ancient Ruthenia, unfortunately I do not have any detailed information right now.

Pechenges, Avars and Bulgars all examples of migrations of Asian populations westward, and Mongols and Tatars of course. There are also theories about Finno-Ugric peoples that see them as originating in the Urals region, or even further east, so it could be possible to say that today's Finns and Estonians, Karelians, Udmurt, Mordovan, Mari peoples are descendents of migrations from Asia into Europe. But this area of Moscow called Kitaigorod, it does translate literally as 'Chinatown', but I don't think it has any relation to China. There are different theories about how the place got its name. Some interpretations say it just means a place outside the walls, and it was indeed the old merchant district just outside the walls. Some say it was because the Tartars lived there. As far as I know, Russian got its word for China, 'Kitai' from the Khitan, and I don't think the Chinese thought of the Khitan as being Chinese. So if Kitaigorod does have any relation to China, it is not to Han Chinese China, but to the peoples to the north, the ones who the Russians had contact with.

possibly the kitaigorod was named after the goods that the Turko-Mongol hordes traded there and not for the actual ethnicity of the people who were the traders.

Finno-Ugric speakers in Finland, Estonia, and Hungary likely originated around the Urals...so they could have been some mix of Mongoloid/Caucasoid from ancient times, maybe proto-Eurasians, before the "split" but today Fins are the most blond people in Europe, even more so than Swedes and although they are outliers the group with Europeans genetically...so the admixture was ancient.

My guess is some Finno-Ugric speakers (a minority) of warriors just conquered proto-Germanic/Slavic/Baltic type folks and made them speak their language, overtime they intermarried with the locals, changing the overall gene polls only slightly.

Longma, that's interesting idea about the goods rather than traders giving rise to the name... I never thought of it that way. I reckon people here in Moscow don't even really think of this 'Chinatown' name at all, it's a really ancient district of Moscow and people don't think about China at all when they hear it. But maybe the traders were bringing through goods from China.
Those Finno-Ugric people are kind of interesting, I think, because like you say, there are those really blond Finns, and the peoples like Mari and Mordvin and Udmurts in European Russia, you can't really tell them apart from ethnic Russians, but then you have khanty and mansi people on the Asian side of the Urals, and they are a lot more distinct.

Here is some info with Fins, but I wish Russians and other Baltic people would be included.

Fins are outliers from most of Europe but they group closer to Europeans than Asians. The people in Finland who tend to show the most "Asian" genetic affinity are in the East of the country, not shocking I guess.



http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2008/08/the_g...p_of_europe.php



http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2008/10/finns...an_outliers.php


I think for the most part, all those Asian invasions were mostly male horseback riders who were few in number but had better warfare techniques and technology so they were able to control large populations of Europeans (Thinks how so few Americans can control millions of Iraqis).

the Asian invaders usually settled and married the locals and also intermarried with the upperclass from neighboring regions and looked no different than everyone else after 3 or 4 generations.


Hell, even the last Czar of Russia could say he was an ancestor of Ghenghis Khan...he was, but so distant it no longer mattered and he looked very European, his cousin is the Queen of England.

It is interesting that you can still see some traces of these Asian invaders in Finland although the phenotype (appearance) of the Fins is now Nordic for the most part.