The Lees of Tang dynasty are often referred as "Tu Zu 土族". What does it mean? They are Turkic people.

土族 (Tu zu) in chinese means aborigine tribes. They were probably just local indigenous people of the region.

The ruling Lee family of Tang dynasty are of mixed han-chinese and Xianbei.. I have no idea if Tu zhu is referring to a turkic tribe.

I think you've read the term wrongly. It should be shizu 士族 (scholar-aristocracy). The shizu were the dominant class of the Age of Fragmentation, Sui and Tang, and were distinguished by having been officials and ministers for many generations. Shizu status was not fully hereditary - the descendants also had to qualify themselves for it by possessing enough learning and culture to merit a place in government.

However, the Li imperial family of the Tang dynasty were not really shizu - they only claimed to be so, tracing their ancestry to the Li ruling family of the Western Liang state in Dunhuang. In reality, the Li were probably originally a humble military family from the Wuchuan border garrison of the Northern Wei.

I probably mistook the term 士族. I read that they were originally turkic people. I jumped the gun. Anyway, how accurate that they are of Xianbei originals? What is Xianbei? Are they Turkic people?

The many Shizhu (scholar aristocracy) of Tang dynasty were of Xianbei originals. They were sinifized Xianbei to be more precise. The Xianbei were not turkic people

History of Xianbei

The Xianbei (鲜卑) is a group of nomadic people/tribe that dwelled in north-east China in ancient times (around 300 AD). These northern people were, strictly speaking, not considered turkic people. They were one of the tribes that originated from the ancient eastern Hu people 东胡人 (around 200 BC) and who migrated to the Xianbei mountain in the north-east China (Manchuria region). Thereafter due to the name of "Xianbei" region/mountain, they came to be known as the "Xianbei" people.

The Xianbei were once subjected to the rule of the XiongNu (匈奴), a northern people who dominated Mongolia and Northern China from 250 BC - 300 AD. Due to several migration westwards and southwards to inner mongolia, about 100,000 XiongNu joined the migration. The Xianbei later mixed wtih the XiongNu, Dingling (丁零), Wuhuan (乌桓), han-chinese etc. to form different new groups [Dingling was an ancient turkic people, while Wuhuan was one of the tribes originating from eastern Hu people]. The main new groups formed include Eastern Xianbei (东部鲜卑) and Tuoba Xianbei (拓跋鲜卑).

Out of the Eastern Xianbei, tribes such as Yuwen tribe (宇文部), Duan tribe (段部), Murong tribe (幕容部) started migrating southwards and established several kingdoms during the Age of Fragmentation (from 300 AD onwards).

The Tuoba Xianbei, on the other hand, was a result of a mix between the original Xianbei and the XiongNu. According to research, 'Tuoba' means (in northern language) 'descendents of Xianbei father and XiongNu mother'. Ever since han dynasty, the Tuoba Xianbei started migrating southwards towards inner China and absorbed some of the han-chinese's culture. They later developed into a strong northern people.

In 386 AD, Tuoba Xianbei established the Northern Wei kingdom. Northern Wei later conquer all the various states in northern China during the Age of Fragmentation and in 439 AD unifed the whole of Northern China. Together with the Liu-Song in the south, China entered into the north-south dynasties period.
From then onwards, these northern nomads began to change their lifestyles from that of nomadics to agriculture.

In 471 AD, Northern Wei's Emperor Xiao Wendi (孝文帝) was enthroned. Because he was only 5 years old, his Grandma Empress Feng (冯太后) took charge of the court. She was the 1st han-chinese lady to be crowned as Northern Wei's Empress and she carried out a large political and economic reform, including a gradual sinification policy that convert the Xianbei to han-chinese, and from nomads to farmers. When Emperor Xiao Wendi came into power at the age of 24, he carried out an even more thorough sinification policy .

The sinification policy of Emperor Xiao Wendi includes:

1. Move of capital from Chengpin (in Shanxi province) to Luoyang. This caused a million Xianbei and other northern people to migrate to central China.

2. The costumes of the Xianbei and other "hu" people were forbidden.

3. The Xianbei language was forbidden and not to be spoken in the court. Only the han-language was allowed

4. He ordered that the family names of Tuoba xianbei to be changed to that of Han.

5. He encouraged Xianbei to marry and mix with Han-chinese. He himself ordered his han-chinese generals to marry their daughters to his 6 brothers.

The Northern Wei lasted for 1/2 century. In 534, it splitted into Eastern Wei and Western Wei. Later, from these two dynasties came the northern Qi and Northern Zhou, who were founded by Xianbeinized Han-chinese "Gao" and Yuwen. All of these were later unified by Sui dynasty. The Xianbei and other northern people such as XiongNu, Wuhuan etc later all become part of the han-chinese.
Many of the great people of Sui and Tang dynasty were descendents of sinifized Xianbei people.

For the founder of Sui dynasty, the mother/wive's side the Yang family were sinifized Xianbei.

As for the founder of Tang dynasty, the mother/wive's side of the Li Family were also sinifized Xianbei. As for their prime ministers, there were about 20 sinifized Xianbei.

There were a number of famous people during the Sui and Tang dynasties that were of sinificized Xianbei origin.

Below are the descendents from the Northern Wei aristocracy that are of the sinifized Xianbei "Yuan" family of Northern Wei, during the Tang dynasty (the so-called "Shizu" 士族) such as :

Yuan Xi Sheng (元希声) - Marvelous kid (神童)
Yuan Wan Qing (元万顷) - Northern Gate Scholar (北门学士)
Yuan De Xiu (元德秀), Yuan Ji Xu (元集虚) - Famous Scholar (名士)
Yuan Xing Chong (元行冲) - Scholar (学者)
Yuan Jie (元结), Yuan Zhen (元稹) - Poets

As for other famous people that are of Xianbei origin or Sinifized Xianbei include:

Yu Wen Kai (宇文恺) - architect of Sui dynasty
Zhangsun Wuji (长孙无忌) - Prime Minister of Tang dynasty and relative of Tang's Emperor

Some clarifications:

Strictly speaking, the original shizu were all of Han-Chinese origin. It was only after the inter-marriage policy enforced by Emperor Xiaowendi of the Northern Wei that the Xianbei tribal aristocracy and the Han shizu began to mix, producing the sinified Xianbei or half-Xianbei aristocracy of the Tang.

The Xianbei were probably a people of Mongolic stock, related to the Khitan (Qidan) and the Shiwei (the probable ancestors of the Mongols). Very little is known of their language, but their original name has been theorised to be Sarbi.



Actually, the Yuwen Xianbei were also half-Xiongnu, but their paternal side was Xiongnu. The Tuoba's own legend about their origins claims that they are descended from Huangdi, and that Tuoba means "descendants of the yellow earth". The Southern Dynasties, however invented another legend to say that the Tuoba were descended from the Western Han general Li Ling after he surrendered to the Xiongnu and married a Xiongnu woman.

The old capital is actually Pingcheng (present-day Datong).



The Yuwen were Xianbei-Xiongnu hybrids, as mentioned above. The Gao claimed to be Han Chinese descended from the Gao clan of scholar-aristocrats in Bohai prefecture, but some scholars believe that they were actually Xianbei too. They certainly followed most aspects of Xianbei culture.

To elaborate further - Dugu Xin, a great Xianbei general of the Northern Zhou, had three daughters. One married Yuwen Yu, an emperor of the Northern Zhou. Another married Yang Jian, who later usurped the Zhou throne as the first Sui emperor. The third married Li Bing, father of Li Yuan - the founder of the Tang.



These were descendants of the Northern Wei imperial house, which under Xiaowendi's sinification policy changed its surname from Tuoba to Yuan. The Northern Qi rulers slaughtered many of the Yuan, but enough of them survived to become prominent among the Tang elite.

Since this thread has turned to focus on the Xianbei, how about moving it to the Ethnicity board? ;)

Alright.. moved..to chinese ethnicity, people forum

Thanks for correcting some of the mistakes I made, Yun.

I think they were referring to the 十 一 族. :lol:

ac, could you explain what that term means?

Here's an interesting thread on All Empires, debating over whether the Sui and Tang were actually Xianbei dynasties like the Northern Wei: http://mojtaba.proboards7.com/index.cgi?bo...8901502&start=0

Wanginqingxiang seems to be an intelligent guy, but he's far too radical in his views, not to mention cocky in the way he expresses them. He's already offended some people on AE, so I hope he doesn't come and liven up our forum anytime soon ;)

I've read his thread. It does seem that he is really a radical guy in his view and rather cocky. I think, not many historians will actually agree with what he says and he believes he is right. ;)

Hmmm... my memory may be flaunting on this but...

I think the there is indeed the term 土族, it is a classification within the 士族, and it referred to the local Han origined shi tsus..... where as those who had changed their name and is more closly related with the Xianbei rulers used a different term that i can't recall at this moment....

Correct me if i'm wrong here... but is it just me or have the Lee family of the Tang went from having Xianbei blood to being pure Xianbei in a lot of these online discussion? I am quiet aware that Li Yuan's and Li Shi Ming's wife are of Xian Bei origin but what goes to suggest that Li Yuan is xianbei himself? most of the XianBei who changed their name to Chinese used sure names that are still quiet distinguistable such as 元, 獨孤, 長孫 etc.... i don't recall any of them changing to the surename of Lee....

i see some resourses said that the turk was a branch of mongol or desendent of genghis khan ?

If the author of this thread is reffered 土族 as an ethinic group in Qing Hai area which is regarded as one of 56 mintory ethnic nationality in China today, 土族 is an shortered prouncation of their own name. In history it is more used as Tuyuhun 吐谷浑. Their origin was one of the Xianbei tribe Murong 慕容 branch. After Xianbei entered China, the Murong branch moved to the west. They have settled there and formed an independent society for more than one thousand years.

Their language is one of dialects of the Mongolian language (which was formed far before the word Mongol appeared and Mongol empire established.) Even after separating of 1400 years, the Mongols and 土族 still somehow understand each other in many aspects. However, moden 土族 language have used many words that was originally from Tibitan language.

This was used as one of the evidence by many scholars to prove the major XianBei and other eastern Hun （东胡） speak Mongolian language.

In general, the language in the nomad tribes that entered northern China belong to one of the two braches of Altai (gold) laungage system, ie. turkish and mongolians. The turkish lauagage groups were located in the west side of Mongol language groups.

Today, it is very debatable what lauange the Huns (XiongNu匈奴） spoke. They appear first in the west side of turkish tribes and east side of Qiang (羌族) language side (one of the branch in sino-tibetan system). At that moment, there are aslo nomad groups who speak Indo-European launguage not far away from there. The Chinese document however suggested they were originally from China (华夏) and they might also speak a brach of Chinese laungage. Most western scholars tend to beblieve they speak turkish, the likelihood might be higher than some other options, however, I do not think it is so sure. For me it is more likely Huns was a united state of nomad tribes in which each tribe speak different launguage, ie mixure from turkish, Qiang, indo-eupopean laugage, mongol to Chinese. It is too difficult to know what was their working language in the central goverment. It might be also in a muiltple language system.

I wrote something about the Tuyuhun in this thread: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=12109

They were not the entire Murong tribe, but only one part of it. The other part stayed in the northeast and later invaded and conquered the Central Plains.

However, I don't think the 土族 that tattoo read about is the present-day 土族 of Qinghai, since they have nothing to do with the Tang imperial family.

Modern "土族" ethnity speak a Mongolic language.
http://www.ethnologue.org/show_language.asp?code=mjg

Yes, in case someone is interested, in the language of the Tu, horse is said Mori, and good is said Sayin, same as in mongol, I think. (sorry, that's the two only words I can remember). Note though that the Tu had not kept any nomadic tradition, most of them were farmers, some of them merchants (doing trans-himalayan trade).

Francois

According to modern archaeological studies, Tu Zu originates from 吐谷浑 (Tu Gu Hun) at the end of Sui and the beginning of Tang. They are descendants of Xianbei and migrated to eastern Qinghai and northwestern Gansu at the end of Jin Dynasty. Tu Gu Hun was first ruled under western Turkics and finally surrendered to Sui Dynasty. It has been said that Li Shimin's mother was a Tu Gu Hun.

Nowadays, there are still large number of 吐谷浑 live in Qinghai 青海 and are commonly known as 土族.