" When exactly was the peak of Han Empire? This thread was splitted from the topic of "han vs Roman Empire" as it has gone rather off-topic. There were much debate over when was the peak of Han empire .
- please note that this thread contains many chinese historical terms and quite a number of chinese characters, it might be difficult for non-chinese speakers to read the entire thread if you're not familiar with them. "
GZ - admin




No, Territories expansion does not makes a peak, this is why academically people considered the peak of Tang during Tianbao instead of the regin under least-spirited Li Zhi when all four territories reached its peak. It depend very much on sense, regin of Yuandi is not usally considered as peak, and year 36 BC (peace with Xiongnu) is certainly not a vigorous start on, Xiongnu Xingguo (行国) had already initiated decline after 100 BCE, when there's no peak for Xiongnu, the peak went to Han, beacuse both were very much tied on politics. As for the Eastern Han, it basically fall apart from the peak after 105 AD, so it wasn't even close.

The Chinese slowly declined over time so they were at their peak at beginning and slowly got weaker

No, absolutely not, I don't know how you even equate Han Wu di's reign as peak of Han, strength is determined by 3 major factors: Military strength, economic strength, and political influence. In all three area Yuan Di has surpassed Wudi, the amount of vassals, sphere of influence, resource, and number of subjects as well as size of reserve and conscript troops and number of garrisons abroad all greatly surpass that of Wu di. Other than the fact that Wu Di is a good emperor with many good geneal at his disposle doesn't make his time superior in power. If you judge spirit of a country as strength you can say that the U.S. is stronger 100 years ago than it is today. U.S. during the cold war also has far more weapon and spirit at its disposle, i is more powerful than today? Communist China would also be far stronger 50 years ago than it is today. But they are not. Power is influence and potential that cannot be effetively exercise does not make it powerful. Wudi didn't even subdue the xiongnu yet. Power is not simply what the internal structure is but more importantly how it compares to external forces, in this case both Eastern Han and Yuan Di's period was superior in strength to Wudi.
I fail to see how the Tien Bao regime is superior in strength to Zheng Guan, even spirit wise, Zheng Guan's troops had far more zeal and fighting capability. I assume by superior you mean culture because no freaken way that Tien Bao even come close to Zheng Guan in power.

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Wudi was surpassed than Yuandi in term of troops, which had far more zeal and militancy than Yuandi.

I have not idea what the hell you're nagging about. Also please show me your source that the military strength, economic strength, and political influence of under Yuandi and Chengdi (as the fact the division of Xiongnu had nothing to do with them) was surpassed that of Wudi and Xuandi regin. There's no peak during Yuandi regin, Yuandi was often criticise as a curse of the declined 宣帝中兴 Xuandi regin. Also, I didn't even mentioned anything about Zhenguan (Li Shimin), I had no idea why did you started out, the internal structure of Zhengguan was mess, there were plenty of enemies, the surrounded relationship was not yet built (even if it did, it had sooner destroyed), both military strength (territory stabilized) and economic strength of Zhengguan were not as good as Kaiyuan (well, sorry not Tiaobao) and Wu Zetian regime. Please awake.

OK, I knew I'd one day see Warhead and Yimanrongdi argue, and it would get very heated. I'm the moderator of this part of the forum, so you guys better debate in a less emotional and personal manner, otherwise I'll be forced to delete the whole thread.

If you find it easier to debate each other in Chinese, please feel free to do so. I will summarise your points in English for the benefit of members who can't read Chinese. Both of you are very knowledgable in Chinese history, so I actually look foward to reading your arguments in Chinese. Just don't start insulting each other again.

Show me your source that Wu Di had more troops. And do show me how they are more efficient, as Han Shu once mentioned, Cheng Tang, the general who destroyed Zhi Zhi's empire in 36 b.c. once said that one Han soldier equal several barbarian (Wusun) troops.




Read H. Dubb's economic journal on the Han to see for yourself on the economic comparison. The population under Wudi didn't surpass 40 million. While the census in 2 a.d. shows a population roughly 59,590,000 so yes its more in both population and GDP(but not in per capita).
Do I really need to explain political influence? You should know that yourself, during Yuan Di, Han's influence spread into the Aral sea, the Wusun, Kangu, Wu Huan, Xiong Nu all recognized Han supremacy, none of which recognized Wudi's supremacy. Wudi didn't even control the Tarim Basin yet. The protector general's status started in 60 b.c. and held an absolute control over the 50 states of the Tarim in which Wudi merely had Hami and Loulan and both of which are ready to switch allegience to xiongnu the instance they gain a victory. Under Yuan Di over a quarter of the world's population and resource lay in the hand of the celestial empire. Under Wudi only a sixth lay in the hand of Han.




you are talking internal politics, but on the world scale for the Han as a world power, Yuan Di's reign is the height of Han power.




No, there wasn't plenty of enemies, what the hell are you talking about? during Zheng Guan, Tang reigned supreme in all four directions it controlled the Tu Jue, Kitan, tarim and Tubo was a vassal. The empire streched all the way to Siberia in which the Tie Le tribes of Xue Yang Tuo, Bai Ku han, and Uighurs weer all under Tang protectorate, under Kai Yuan none of them was, Tu Jue was independent and raided occasionally, Tubo was extremely powerful and was a competitor to Tang in the west, the Turgis empire is constanly revolting and so were the Kitans and Xi, Silla and BoHai were also competely independent. On the world scale, During Zheng Guan and Gao Zong's reigns Tang was the only supreme power, it ruled a third of the world's population. Under Kai Yuan, Yarlung Tubo, and the Umayyad Caliph were both great powers, the Ummayad is even larger than the Tang although not as powerful. Kai Yuan is richer and superior internally if thats what you are talking about, but on the world scale Kai Yuan doesn't come even close to Zheng Guan. You think Zheng Guan is a mess? Did you forget about An Shi revolt? During Tien Bao, the emperor could barely control his army!
As for Wu Ze Tien's Sheng Shen Zhou Chao been superior to Zheng Guan's reign in power, wake up yourself, her army could barely coupe with the Kitan rebellion and the raid of the Khan Mocho of Tujue. There were a lot of rebellions, such as one in 684 when she took power. The zeal of her soldiers are poor. This is clearly mentioned by Li Zhen Kui general of the Korean campaign in one of his letters he claim that his soldiers are poor and all they wanted to do is go home. He asked a soldier why? The soldier answered during the time of Tai Zong, every soldier is rewarded and so they fought with zeal, yet by the fifth year (660a.d.) the soldiers are no longer paid and rewarded well or granted ranks so they had no zeal to fight. The Fu Bing system was cleary in decline by 660a.d. and it became so inefficient that in 737A.D. the emperor decreed an order to created a permanent professional army on the border this strengthened the army yet weakened central control.

And you still haven't answered to this, if you categorize zeal as power of empire, Rome would not be at its height under Trajan but under Julius Caesar, Marius, Sulla or Scipio. Roman historian clearly mentioned that during the empire, Roman fighting zeal and patriotism were gone and praised the time of the Republic.
Eastern Han and late western Han also had much xiongnu auxiliars to use none of which arein Wu Di's troops.

You also seem to forget that by the end of Wudi's reign Han was in virtual bankrupcy because of war and didn't fully heel until Xuan Di. When Han is still rich, it was still paying annual subsidy to xiongnu and its empire didn't even strech to the south yet.

No, no, please don't post in Chinese. While this forum is devoted to discussing Chinese History, it is asked that you don't do so in foreign languages. While I'm sure you could summarize it, Yun, I would hate for people who don't speak Chinese(the majority I would presume) to miss the the whole thing.

I had already shown that they're more effective than Yuandi, infact you should show one. Yuandi's troops won the war (more effective) simply beacuse Xiongnu was more weaker than it is since Wudi, basically more divided. Wudi troops were more effective, beacuse they won more victories from 133-90 BC than just a single battle war in 36 b.c. Also Chen Tang never mentioned anything about Wusun, he said one Han is equal to five Hu soldiers when their metallurgy was weak, he (even he himself became disability after the injuredly war in 36 BC) said that when Xiyu was attacked by Wusun in later years under Yuandi. It is basically a cliche 夫胡兵五而当汉兵一, beaucse you and me know, that there's no way for one Han soldier to kill every five hu in every major battles.








Who's Dubb, I hope he does know what you're talking about. During Wudi, Han's influence spread into Dayuan so what's the point. The goal of the Wudi regin was the cut off Xiongnu right arm terrtiory (Gansu) which was basically done, there's no need for him to annxed all tarim (as which was done by Xuandi). Any pre-2 AD census was doubtful, which was merely recorded in Hou Hanshu of a passage of Diwang Shiji, whatever it is, 59millions was the peak of population of entire Han, which was seen as 汉极盛矣 and 汉之极盛也, but that does not meant Pingdi was the peak of Han Dynasty, don't be such twisted.



No, there were plenty of enemies, like Liang Shidu duirng Zhengguan (627-49), and Tubo was never a vessal of Zhengguan, Li Shimin was force to marry a princess to Songtsan in a victory battle of Songzhou 638 AD, furthermore he was force to retreated during an expedition to western Liaoning of 645, which he saw the local regime (Gaoliju) was equal that of early Tang, so what's your point on Khitan part of Wu Zetian anyway. What's so wrong of Zhengguan is that court struggling was the mere curse, Wu Zetian does had court struggling but not corrupted as like Zhengguan. And you really ought to read something about the so called siberia parts history, it was not merely annxed in Zhengguan but Longshuo. And that Ten Jiedu was a great stability for outer and inner Tang territory of Kaiyuan, I don't see anything wrong with that (except its went wrong in Tianbao).






Which was why under Xuandi it was called as Zhong Xing 中兴, during Wudi its simply known as peak. The south was more or less annnxed by the end of Wudi, no local tribesman could even set up a regime, even if it did (in which never) it cannot be seen as separated parts.

YMRD, Homer Dubbs was a well-known Sinologist at Oxford University in the first half of the 20th century. His specialty was in Han history. Warhead, can you give the full citation for Dubbs' book so that YMRD can check it up?



Ok, let me translate this into English that the others can understand :blink:
"What was wrong with the Zhenguan reign period (i.e. the reign of Tang Taizong) was that internal political struggles at court were a real curse. Wu Zetian's reign did have court struggles as well, but not as serious as in Zhenguan. And you really ought to read something about the history of the 'Siberian region', it was not really annexed in Zhenguan but actually in the Longshuo reign period (i.e. 661-663, under Taizong's son Gaozong [Li Zhi])."

I'm sure many of you guys aren't familiar with the Tang reign period names that Warhead and YMRD are throwing around. For now, just remember that besides Zhenguan being the reign of Tang Taizong, Kaiyuan is the first two-thirds of the reign of Tang Xuanzong and Tianbao is the last one-third.

Yun, I think you realy shouldn't translate yimanrongdi's words, you might miss some of his points (interpertation is very personal), let the forumites ask if they don't understand.

Please dont post in Chinese, we poor Japanese people cant rad it

OK, BoF, Thirdgumi and Deathdoom - I get what you mean. I'll only rephrase or clarify some sentences that I think are important and useful for everybody, but are too difficult to understand in their present form. I was just feeling what a pity it was that YMRD and Warhead have such deep analyses but many of us are confused by what they're writing.

Anyway, YMRD and Warhead: you can continue to quote some passages in the original Chinese, like what YMRD is already doing now. It's clearer that way for those of us who can read it. I will definitely entertain any request to translate that passage into English.

Heh.... seems we have strayed quiet a bit from the original topic no ...?:P B)

I think we have some basic disagreement here of what define as a peak too....

book of faith:
Why is Chinese a foreign language in discussing Chinese history?! Faugh! You can ask us to translate it, but saying that Chinese is a foreign language in a chinese history forum is a little over the top!

Its like discussing Russian history, someone quotes a historical passage by a Russian historian, and then someone says its a foreign language in discussing such history...blegh!

This is an english language forum. Period. We need to be courteous to those users who don't speak Chinese(myself included), keeping in mind the majority here do not speak Chinese.

Yes, we have a dilemma here in which many of our members don't read Chinese (but not most - GZ, Sephodwyrm, Thirdgumi, Han Wudi, Rolling Wave, Yau, Han Chinese, Warhead, Yimanrongdi and myself can), while a handful of our members are better able to express themselves in Chinese. That doesn't just refer to grammar, but also to the usage of terms: for example, YMRD used 'sheng shen zhou chao' (Wu Zetian's Zhou dynasty), which would leave many of us in a fog of confusion since it isn't translated for our convenience. Even the Hanyu Pinyin used by many of us is wrong (e.g. 'Sheng Shen' rather than 'Shen Sheng')

My translation suggestion was an attempt to find a compromise between the two, but I do recognise that it causes too much inconvenience both for myself and for non-Chinese readers. So let's just take my second proposition: primary sources can be quoted in Chinese, but explanations must be made in English. And also refrain from using Hanyu Pinyin if appropriate English translations can be made.

You've absolutely nothing other thanpointing out that Wudi fought more battles. You've so far failed in every aspect in comparing the quality of the Han troops to the extend you've discussed the quality at all. You've got to do better than that. You've shown no prove that Wudi's troop is superior other than saying he fought more. And all those battles aren't victories if you haven't noticed.



Dubbs know very well what he is talking about. Modern systematic analysis of population patterns links a much greater variety of demographic, economic and environmental variables, garnered from both documentary and archaeological sources, including more recently gathered desertification and erosion data. As well as a great under tanding of population growth. And Wudi's reign the population is much less than Yaun Di. This is not even needed to study, by the simple biological logic, a population will always grow under peace and prosperity. Wudi's reign is only the middle of the prosperity, and Han continues to grow afterwards.

More importantly, it didn't spread into Kang Gu, Xiongnu, and most of Tarim is my point.



He couldn't annex Tarim because he couldn't, the late armies sent by him with such genearls as Li Guan Li and Li Ling was disastrous and were annilated, only Ma Tong's campaign was moderately sucessful but that doesn't change much, by the end of Wudi's reign, it is learly recorded that the Xiongnu embassadors traveling through the tarim is far more respected than Han envoys.

59 was only the recorded registereed population, those "unregistered" might have been even higher, this also doesn't include the non chinese tribes that are in the Han Empier such as the Yue tribes, and it certainly doesn't include the protectorate population in Tarim Basin and Qin Hai. And certainly not vassal states like Wusun with a recorded population of 640,000.



Liang Shi Du was subjugated during the third year of Zheng Guan and the Tu Jue empire a year afterwards, so thats a poor example, I'm comparing the Zheng Guan at its height not the first few years if you didn't realize that.



Wrong! Have you even read Zhi Zhi Tong Jian? In Zhi hi Tong Jian 195: 6139-6140, its recorded clearly that general Hou Chun Chiled a surprised counterattack and outed the Tibetan invading forces killing "over 1000 heads" In Qiu Tang Shi, it is recorded that the Tang troops drove off the Tibetan troops in heavy casualies", San Bu later wrote a letter to "beg forgiveness for his crimes" and reosk the marriage, Taai Zong thought it would be beneficial and agreed. It was a Tang victory pure and simple. For the vassal status. Zhi Fu Yuang kuei 974: 13V, Tu Yu;190: 1023, Jiu Tang Shu196a:5222, and Hou Tang shu: 196a:3r)
All of them states thatthat in 649 a.d., when Gao Zong just got on the throne, he bestowed the title of Fu Ma Tu Wei("military commander/ imperial son in law) and Xi Hai Jun Wang(soverign of the western seas) as well as the title of Bao Wang(treasure king) on Sgampo. In response, Sgampo states that if the Tang had any problem he would promply to send an army to help straighten them out.

Is all you can name of Zheng Guan's problems? Because for every one I can name at least five defeats and problems for Kai Yuan, The Tibetans handed many defeats and nearly wrestled the Tarim away to him especially in the early years. The Kitan and Xi was constantly revolting heavily defeating Tang armies in 736 and again in 751. The Tu Jue was never subjugated so there is no point discussing that. Turgis also handed some defeas upon the Tang. Compared to Zheng Guan, Kai Yuan lost far more battles and was far less successful externally.



I did read a lot on this part already thank you, its you who should read them. After Tai Zong defeated and conquererd the Tu Jue he divided their territory into 20 perfectures into the An Bei, the Xue Yang Tuo confederation which occupied Siberia was also organized into Du Hu Fu. But they revolted constantly. In 647 the Uighurs revolted against the Xue Yang Tuo and with the aid of Tang troops overthrew them and occupied Siberia and north mongolia. Tai Zong rezoned this region into 6 Du Hu Fu and 7 Zhou established over the Uighurs and associated tribes. North Mongolia was incorportated into the Tang Empire during Tai Zong reign as this implies.



Do you know what Zhi Shi is don't you? (Zhi) means rule) Shi means the period. Together it means reign of prosperity and peace. During the reign of Wen and Jin Di it was known as Wen Jin Zhi ZHI. During Xuan Di it was Han Xuan Zhi ZHI. There was no Zhi Shi given to Wudi's reign because for most part of his reign, there is no peace or prosperity. By the time the south , Koera is annexed and Xiongnu war at rest, the Han was bankrupt. Thats why Wudi adopted the policy of "Yu Ming Xiu Xi" which means "resting the population" and this pollicy continued until Yuan Di's reign. Do tell me what Chinese word are there to describe Wudi's reign as peak. And do tell me how Wudi's reign is superior to Xuan Di since you yourself admitted, that it was during Yuan that Han really started to decline while its still stron during Xuan, so tell me how can you claim Wudi's reign is supeior to Xuan Di's. It makes absolutely no sense, Xuan Di's reign compared to Wudi's late reign is more prosperous, larger, more political influence and more population and the internal politics nearly just as well. So I eally fail to see your logic on this one.

Let me explain what this "decline" means. It has absolutely nothing to do with decline in military, economics or external expansion and national steength. It means that the emperor's authority is declining thus the Han regime's power is declining, the emperor is more or less heavily influenced by court people such as the empress dowager and eunuchs. Also the regional strength grew and central authority weakened. But on the contrast since regional power weakened military grew as its the rule of politics, thus you could say Rome is less powerful after Marius than befoer Marius before central rule also weakened by the introduction of Professional troops. Externally, the Han is far from weakening , on the contrast its growing during Yuan Di and so its the national strength. This is whats meant by "declining"; internal poltics and nothing more.




I'm going to show you the military garrisons during Tai Zong's reign to give you a picture of how much less of external therat during Zheng guan- Shang Yuan than it is to KaiYuan-Tien Bao.
First, by Zheng Guan 8th year 634, the fu bing was at its height and the Tang code was introduced, in less than a decade after Zheng Guan, the people were so prosperous that it was said they worried no starvation, their food include a variety of delicacies with different vegetables and meat. People could leave their doors unlocked and fear no bandits. Its far from hardship as you describe.
as early as the 5th year of Zheng Guan, the Tang was in complete harmony that the emperor placed less than 100,000 troops on the frontier, there were no permanent garrisons UNTIL 677 when the Tibetans became a threat, Koguryo was far from a threat of any sort. Thjerefore there is absolutely no powerful enemy capable of threantening Tang during this time. On the contrast, during Kai Yuan, Tibetan and Tu Jue is very much of a threat, 490,000 troops are placed permanenly on the frontier, numerous garrisons are created, I'll name them all if you want. Only duing Tien Bao did peace return and foreign wars are still far more numerous and much more garrisons are placed on the frontiers because of powerful enemies. There is no comparison,
The Xien Qing and Lung Shuo is the strongest period during the Tang dynasty.

You can at least attempt to ask politely for the person who posted in Chinese to translate it, or a moderator to assist you in the language. The thing is, Chinese is not a foreign language in discussing Chinese History! :angry:

It is on an English language forum.

We're ruining this thread the more we post, so if you would like to discuss this more, please contact me privately.

I appreciate that, I sugest that when we use terms in Chinese, we could write them in both English and Chinese , for a better understanding.

I also suggest that forumites make no subjective statements like "did you ever read XXXX" or "You should read more about XXXX" when debating. It's quite offensive, using those phrases it's implied that our counter-parts didn't read something but actualy he might have done.

I had succeeded in comparing the quality of Wudi troops was far more superior, they had won almost all Hexi, Mobei, Monan, Henan's battles (except for the last two) not just a single battle of Yuandi, and Chen Tang did not won on a proper army but an exiled army of Zhizi, compare it with a proper army.




Dubbs knew nothing about your nagging, there's no census for what you had been stating (less then 40 million? what the hell?). Show me a source to prove that, the beginning of Wudi's regin (after Wenjing) population are much higher than Yuandi, while Yuandi's population (after Xiongnu war) were certainly lower than early Wudi's regin, in that case it had only merely recovered from 36 BC. And "continues to grow afterwards"? Show me a source.

Most importantly, during Yuandi, it didn't spread into Kangju either, neither to Wusun, go read Hanshu. And what the hell you had been stating that they had recognized Han supremacy, Kangju had long been self-arrogant and isolated from Han even during Chengdi times, they won't greet any Han embassador either, even protector Guo Shun had stated an Ally (non-vassel) with Wusun made no benefits and curse only problems (Shengshi) for Zhong Guo. And Wuhuan? Since when did Wuhuan recognized Han supremacy during Yuandi. Again what's your point.


Show me your source on the Xiongnu embassador parts.

State your source that yue tribes wasn't registereed, infact over 10 of thousands (and almost all of Minyues) of them were sent north of yangtze (district area) and left substantially few of them on original land.



You're kidding, we have been talkiing the Zhenguan years and I see no disagreement from you.

Wrong, Songtsan seek for marriage even before the incident, by 638 they attacked Tuyuhun, Dangxiang and Bailan, at Songzhou he had asked again for one princess, because Songtsan was too impatient to wait for Li Shimin's daughter, its clearly states 谓其属曰：“若大国不嫁公主与我，即当入寇。”遂进攻松州, and it wasn't showing any vassal status either after the war, it even shown that Taizong surrendered (Xujiang) Wencheng to Songtsan, by the time of Gaozong (649) it was merely recognized as the status of emperor's son-in-law (Fu Ma), this status generally did not existed after 650 when Songtsan died, Songtsan could never send his troops to help Tang either, beacuse he was death by a year.



During Zhenguan and Li Zhi's regin, tarim was occupied occasionally so what's the point, infact they had lost more battles with Tibetan during Li Zhi. The Khitan during Kaiyuan and Tianbao paid over 20 times or so tributes to Tang so what's the point again, they shown at least a clear vassel status of Kaiyuan.

You're basically mindless, there's no Anbei back then when Taizong defeated Tujue either to that of "20 prectures". It was merely after defeated Tujue, Taizong discussed with his ministers and divided Tujue territory of from Youzhou (east) to Lingzhou (west) into four Dudu and six Zhou, from which left-terrtiory incorporated into Dingxiang and right-territory to Yunzhong Dudu Fu (not Duhu), which was not even included Outer (North) mongolia which still holds by Xueyantuo, again what implies.



孝宣之治，信赏必罚，综核名实，政事、文学、法理之士咸精其能，至于技巧、工匠、器械，自元、成间鲜能及之，亦足以知吏称其职，民安其业也。遭值匈奴乖乱，推亡固存，信威北夷，单于慕义，稽首称籓。功光祖宗，业垂后嗣，可谓中兴，侔德殷宗、周宣矣！
There's no such term of Hanxuan Zhishi either, please keep that in mind. It should be Zhongxing, during his regin, the Xiongnu recognized Han supremacy (not Yuandi), and the regin of Yunadi and Chengdi could barely be supremacy than Xuandi, due to this fact that he was equalied that of King Pangeng (Shang) and King Xuan (W.Zhou) as comparison.

承孝武奢侈余敝师旅之后，海内虚耗，户口减半，光知时务之要，轻繇薄赋，与民休息。
Yes, but you had been freaken-up, because Wudi didn't adopted Yuming Xiuxi (与民休息), and Yuming Xiuxii was only adopted by Wen, Jing as well as Huo Guang during Zhaodi times in which was lasted unitl Xuandi Qinzheng (not Yuandi either). Primarily because after Wudi the popluation had been deceased into half and worsted during Yuandi times. I still failed to see your logic that Yuandi was the Peak of Han.

So you had agreed Zhenguan wasn't the peak of Tang but Kaiyuan.

然举唐之盛时，开元、天宝之际，东至安东，西至安西，南至日南，北至单于府，盖南北如汉之盛，东不及而西过之。考隋、唐地理之广狭、户口盈耗与其州县废置，其盛衰治乱兴亡可以见矣。盖自古为天下者，务广德而不务广地，德不足矣，地虽广莫能守也。呜呼，盛极必衰，虽曰势使之然，而殆忽骄满，常因盛大，可不戒哉！
It simple, beauase Kaiyuan and Tianbao is basically the peak of Tang as commonly stated.

I had never heard of 贞观 as a peaking, but instead 贞观兴开元盛, Zhenguan had a larger territory but that does not meant its a peak.



There's no such term as Shen sheng Zhou Chao either, neither it had been a histories term, warhead, its Tianjin not Tientsin, Xuzhou not Suchow, don't be such anachronism, what you used isn't Wade-Giles either, why not instead D'ang Dynasty.

I have a question. What does comparing victories get us, they were fighting diffrent enemies.

No you haven't, I repeat, all you've done is rant about how Wudi fought more battles or how he was more successful, none of which equate to superior troops, fighting more battles has no connecting whatsoever to superior army, an army that doesn't fight isn't in any way inferior to one that does, you make absolute no sense. Been successful has nothing to do with strength, Just about all historian agree that Han power continued to grow after Wudi.

When I mentioned Dubbs I wasn't talking about population but economics, genius.




Short history of the Chinese peoplethird addtiion by Goddrich p.30, it clearly mentions that the population grew steadily from the begining of the Han to 2a.d. which the census show 59,595,000. And since according to Dubbs, economics grew but per capita didn't the only way possible is if the populatuion grew.

Read Han Shu yourself, i don't know what nonsense you've read, but in Han shu 96b, 3-6 it clearly mentions that after 65 b.c., the Wusun is divided into two kingdoms, that of little Kunmi and big Kunmi, both of which recognized Han supremacy and remained faithful vassals, when Zhi Zhi attacked big Kunmi, big Kunmi remained loyal to Han and didn't submit to Zhi Zhi. During yuan Di, there are frequent civil war between the two kingdoms and Yuan Di had to use troops to quell them constantly. Han Shu also clearly states that in 5 b.c. when a petty princeling of Wusun in the west stronve to gain glory attacked the Xiongnu but was in return defeatedthe Wusun was forced to remain a hostage in the xiongnu, court. When the Han found out they insist that since BOTH the wusun and xiongnu are vassals o the Hanits highly improper that one should remain a hostage in anotherso the xiongnu gave way and returned the Wusun hostage.





Han Shu clearly states that after Zhi Zhi is defeated, the Kangu start to pay annual tribute to the Han and even sent a hostage there, so the Han did have a vague influence on them even though its purely nominal. The Han during this time is virtually the policeman of central Asia punishing those insubordinate nations that threaten other weaker ones such is the case with Zhi Zhi.




I don't why you have so much questions if you actually read Han Shu as you claimed, because once again the Han Shu clearly mention that in 5 B.C. right after the Wusun incidence, the Han emperor sent a fourfold ultimatum to the xiongnu and says that trouble would come to them if they harbor anyone from
1) China proper, 2)Wusun, 3)Xiyu, 4) WuHuan
It also states that afterwards that WuHuan still paid tribute to the xiongnu, and since both are assals of the Han the Han told the WuHuan that tribute is no longer need to be paid. The Wu Huan obeyed.

Now why am I not surprised you didn't know this either? :rolleyes: Han Shu 96a, 26-29 expressively told thatwhen a xiongnu ambassador is equippted with a letter from the Chang Yu, arrived at the capital of any of the various kingdoms of XiYu, the local ruler would provied him with provisions and means of transportationfree of cost, but when a Han agent appeared on the scene he was expected to pay, and pay liberally, for any provisions or transport animals he required.

Obviously this is not the case because Fu Jian's Yue was never compete assimilated or removed until the time of Sun Quan. You want source? I'll give them to you in full detail. First your statement was not only unhistoric but preposterous in every way. There are numerous tribes in Yunnan Fujian, and Canton as well as Annam that had tribal chiefs that merely gave allegience to the Han and paid annual tribute they were never assimilated into Han population thus not registered. Examples of the tribes are Ye Lang of Yunnan. These can be found Han Chinese expansion in South China by Herold Wiens p.139. Another prove is that After Jin emperor Wen had conquered Shu Han in A.D. 263, a census registration revealed a Chinese (including sinicized Tai) of 940,000 households in Si Chuan and the former Wei kingdom combined. This would be roughly 5,372,900 people. Before Jin conquered Wu, the Wu had a registerred population of 5,300,000.. Yet after Jin conquered Wu the Wu had 4 Zhou, 43 Jun, and 313 Xian. The registered household was 523,000, the officials 33,000, and its soldiery 230,000. Male and female, its population numbered some 2,300,000. The entire population of Jin was given as 2,49,840 households, with 16,163,863 people. This indicate a tripling of population in only 17 years. a absolute impossibility. This can only be because of two things, one the unregistered population is much higher because of chaos and fleeing, the other is that more local tribal population are incorpaorated into the local Chinese population during this time after Jin conquered Wu and Han and these newly submitted tribes became registered Chinese population after they submitted as LiuShan Li point out. Again read Han Chinese expansion in South China by Herold Wiens p. 177.
Happy? Or are you still stubborn enough even after the sources are obviously presented.

I'm talking Zheng Guan at its height with Kai Yuan at its height for the second time.



Whats wrong? For the second time in Zhi hi Tong Jian 195: 6139-6140, its recorded clearly that general Hou Chun Chiled a surprised counterattack and routed the Tibetan invading forces killing "over 1000 heads" In Qiu Tang Shi, it is recorded that the Tang troops drove off the Tibetan troops in heavy casualies", Sgampo later wrote a letter to "beg forgiveness for his crimes" and reosk the marriage, Tai Zong thought it would be beneficial and agreed. Its quite obvious that it was a Tang victory, therefore the only one thats wrong is you for claiming a Tibetan victory.
Xu Jian doesn't mean surrender it merely mean marring the princess off. Or is it even a primary source that you've read because Neither Jiu Tang Shi or Zhi Zhi Tong Jian in any way claim that Tai Zong is "force" to give the princess. It mentions that only after Sgampo begged forgiveness and sent a large amount of tribute as well as his embassadar prostrating befoer the emperor and kowtow that Tai Zong agreed to give a princess to pacify the barbarians.



Could you read? because I've just posted right befoer yours that in 649 a.d., when Gao Zong just got on the throne, he bestowed the title of Fu Ma Tu Wei("military commander/ imperial son in law) AND Xi Hai Jun Wang(soverign of the western seas) AS WELL AS the title of Bao Wang(treasure king) on Sgampo. In response, Sgampo states that if the Tang had any problem he would promply to send an army to help straighten them out. For the vassal status. Zhi Fu Yuang kuei 974: 13V, Tu Yu;190: 1023, Jiu Tang Shu196a:5222, and Hou Tang shu: 196a:3r)
All of them states thatthat. This title is GRANTED to the Tibetan emperor not just known. Only a vassal could be granted a title. Since I've shown my source, why don't you show yours?



Sgampo alerady sented troops to help out Tang on many occasions, one was a campaign against Kucha in which Tai Zong ordered many nations to join hin in the attack and Tubo is listed as one of them. Another is in 647 when Tang ambassador Wang Xian Ce went to India but was mistreated, he later went to Tibet and asked Sgampo to give him a army for revenge, sgampo been a vassal sent a force of 10,000 and persuaded the King of Nepal to sent a army of 7,000. With this army Wang xian Ce defeated the king A Fu Shun Na of central India and lead him back in Chains to chang An. So don't mince words with me.

Tarim was occupied for more or less thirty years. and during this thirty years it was more powerful than Kai Yuan or Tien Bao. They only lost to Tibetans starting from 670 a.d., which is not what I was talking about. Tang was at its strongest from 630-665 druing this time it had no threatening enemies opposed to the numerous ones in Kai Yuan and Tien Bao.



The point is they defeated the tang army and was in constant rebellion whuile it only rebelled once and was immediately crushed during Tai Zong and Li Zhi's reign.



And your eyeless because you again missed what I've posted as here: in 647 the Uighurs revolted against the Xue Yang Tuo and with the aid of Tang troops overthrew them and occupied Siberia and north mongolia. Tai Zong rezoned this region into 6 Du Hu Fu and 7 Zhou established over the Uighurs and associated tribes. North Mongolia was incorportated into the Tang Empire during Tai Zong reign as this implies.

I never said Xiongnu submitted during Yuan di nor did I say Chengdi's reign was superior, Xuan Di and Yuan Di are the strongest point of Han. Which one is superior is up to opinion, but both are clearly superior to Wudi was my point. You still haven't mentioned to me why Wudi's reign is superior to Xuan Di's as you claimed.



Wrong, Wudi did adopt Yu Ming Xu Xi during the last three year of his reign, this set a precedence to Zhao and Xuan Di. Do you want sources?


What the hell is wrong with you? Where did you see in my post that I claimed Kai Yuan is superior? I never said Zheng Guan is the strongest, Li Zhi's regign was. Zheng Guan was still superior to Kai Yuan for the obvious reasons I've pointed out.



I haven't installed a Chinese reading program into my new computor yet, so don't give me anything in Chinese because they won't appear. Whats commonly stated? Show me your source. And commonly stated doesn't mean its always right, since most Chinese Sinologist are highly sinocentric so what they say doesn't mean its the truth in any way. Kai Yuan and Tien Bao is wealthier and internally stronger, this I didn't disagree, but externally Tang during 630-665 is the strongest where its a unipolar power without challenge.

Again, I never said Zheng Guan is peak, I said that Li Zhi's reign is the peak, simply because it had no challenge.



There is a third system other than Pin Yin and Wade Giles, and this system is the one that I came across. Since you can understand it what are you bitching about? I have my own use of words.

And still, YOu cower away from answering to my statement that according to your logic, Trajan's reign isn't the strongest reign during Roman either if you count internal politics and spirit or success and nyumber of battles as the strength of a empire. Because Rome fought far more battles, won far more territories, and have more troops during the reign of Caesar than trajan. All Trajan conquered was Dacia and Northern Mesopotamia. During Caesar and Augustus's reign, more than twice that many territory, battles and victories are presented than Trajan's. Your method of stength judgement is simply flawed. And as I repeat again, strength is not judged by internal decline, its judged by the power comparison between that state and its enemies, even if Yuan Di and Cheng Di's rule became weakend, Xiong nu's power weakened even more so Han is more powerful during Yuan and Cheng Di. Its absolutely ridiculous to claim Wudi as the strongest simply because during Wudi, Han is not even a unipolar power yet. This did not began until the xiongnu empire collapsed and Han became the sole power in the power struggle, just like that after the soviet Union fell, United States became the unipolar power and had no challenge, but since the United States has less missile than it had duing the cold war is the U.S. inferior in power after the Soviet Union collapsed? No.

I see your points.
Warhead was emphasing relativism between different powers, while yimanrongdi was emphasing relativism between the same power but of different stages in history. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I think comparing a state with others is easier than comparing a state with itselves during different stages of history. The former one would be obvious, one can see the difference between 2 states just by comparing them. The later one is not so obvious, because one must take in consideration the growth (be it economical or military or anything else) of the state in different stages.
So, back to the topic, all we need to take into considerationg is to mark a period which a Roman legion and a Han army would meet, because we can't put two armies belonging to different periods to fight, it would be unfair.

A word from the MOD to Warhead and yimanrongdi: be cool and be calm, stop offending each other. And I suggest when we post in Chinese we must also post the english translation of it, so other forumites could understand.

I would not respond much, since your full of ****.

Yes, infact I did shown how inferior Yuandi was than Wudi on such apects, you should had shown yours.



Look, on Hanshu it stated that the populatuion had been deceased into half and could barely growth until Yuanshi and Yuanfeng era, it grew instability and erratic, so your statement was not only unhistoric but preposterous in stating like "grew steadily" or "continuously" from begining of Han to 2 AD.

Yes, they were divided after 64 BC (not 65 BC either), but they had never recognized Han supremacy, either it had mentioned anything of remained faithful vassals and they had revolted and fighting one another occasionally during Yuandi and Chengdi times, infact it even stated that since the division of Wusun, Han had been exhausted and yet couldn't accomplish for peace of Wusun matters. It did, Wusun attacked Xiongnu in 5 BC and in return was defeated. And no, its had NEVER stated that both are vassals. Quote your source out.



Yes, if so please do quote your source.

No, After defeated Zhizi, Kangju was barely mentioned during Yuandi times. Quote your source.



Yes, Wang Mang did sent four orders to Chanyu after two Xiyu kings fled to Xiongnu, but Chanyu did not really obeyed, and it never stated Wuhuan still have to paid tribute to Xiongnu, infact Wuhuan obeyed the Zhaotiao (rules) which set by Wang Mang and eventually angered the Xiongnu, the Xiongnu raided and killed hundred of them afterwards.

I could barely agreed, also Yelang wasn't in Yunnan but Guizhou, and they were never under part of Yizhou Jun. Read Tongdian, after Wei (not Jin, he was not yet titled Wendi either) had conquered Shu, census revealed 280,000 households, 940,000 populations, 102,000 soldiery and 40,000 offcials, Tai minority was not included in this registration. Before Jin conquered Wu, the Wu had a registerred population of 2,300,000 and 520,000 households (242 AD). After Jin conquered Wu, the Wu had 4 Zhou, 43 Jun, 313 Xian, 523,000 households, 320,00 offcials, 230,000 soldiery and 2,300,000 population. The entire population of Jin was given as 2,459,840 households with 16,163,863 population. The Jin incresed 986,381 households and 8,490,982 (8 millions) population in 18 years. In which many of them were unregistered during chaos.



Yet you didn't even stated earlier

Go check out my perviouly post, I said during a victory battle of Songzhou. And Xujiang does not literal means marring off.



Show your source on the kowtow parts.

Tubo wasn't a vassel of Zhenguan.



You're kidding, tarim was occupied during Zhenguan and Li Zhi for even less than 20 years.

read your post: After Tai Zong defeated and conquererd the Tu Jue he divided their territory into 20 perfectures into the An Bei, the Xue Yang Tuo confederation which occupied Siberia was also organized into Du Hu Fu. But they revolted constantly.



At least we came to an agreement, Wudi and Xuandi are the peak of Han as I had been suggested on earlier post, and there's no freaken way that 36b.c. of Yuandi was the Peak of Han

Go read Tangshu (as I had posted earlier), it had already stated clearly that Kaiyuan and Tianbao was the Peak of Tang.
.






Right on, either you had been stating Li Zhi regin as the strongest earlier, however I did stated Li Zhi was superior on externally, but it was the Kaiyuan which regaraded as the Peak of Tang.






What kind of system would have Qiu Tangshu (Jiu Tangshu), Hou Chun Chi (Hou Junji)

Sorry to interrupt. First of all, an apology to Yimanrongdi: the use of the term "sheng shen zhou chao" was actually by Warhead and not by you, as you have already mentioned.

Secondly, I would appreciate if both of you use Hanyu Pinyin, simply to avoid confusing the rest of us who are not so strong in Chinese.

Thirdly, when you quote a passage in Chinese from the primary sources, please try and translate or summarise for the benefit of those who can't read Chinese.

Fourthly, do not use words like "what the hell" and "****" in this forum. If you use them again, I will have to edit your post. My job as a moderator is to ensure that the language used is moderate.

Lastly, let me propose a way to simplify this debate into a more easily understood form for everybody. Both of you should express your entire argument in a point-by-point manner covering all areas:

1. Territorial extent

2. Strength of military

3. Economy

4. Population

5. Relations with other powers

6. Others

Compare Han Wudi's reign with Han Yuandi's reign in one post, and then compare Tang Taizong's reign with Tang Xuanzong's reign in another post. And then address your opponent's arguments point by point, from 1 to 6. Cite sources whenever you can, and counter your opponent's sources wherever possible. If your opponent has a relevant source and you do not, then you are considered to have lost on that particular point.

All the best to you both!

Alright.. sorry for the interruption, Warhead and Yimanrongdi, I know that both of you get into a rather heated debate trying to prove each other's point is wrong and you're right. But please calm down and follow our forum rules. Saying things like "You are full of ****" isn't going to make our discussion more fruitful. I would appreciate if both of you can be more polite.

I hope I'm not going to lock this thread or send a PM warning to you guys, but please refrain from personal attack and follow our forum rules . I'll watch out for this thread so that it doesn't turn into a flame.

As said before, this is an english-language forum, so if you're quoting chinese sources, I would appreciate if you can at least translate them into english, for the benefit of forummers who can't read chinese to understand your point. Anyway, if you're a chinese speaker, this forum is also a place where you can improve your english and express yourself. If you do have problems about translation from chinese to english, you can PM me, Yun, thirdgumi, Sephodwrym for help.

Why give up so soon? I ask only your source that proves my so called "****". Do not press on too much love. For you've done nothing but rant. So far I've asked you to tell me why Wudi's reign is superior to Yuan Di or Xuan Di, but all you've done is cower away like a scared puppy and fail to give any solid reason. But even worse is that to dispatch up your ignorance and incompetence, you've resorted to name calling and shown nothing but the crap such as its been "commonly" agreed. Do not attempt to mince words with me, I know very much what your so called "commonly agreed is. The Kai Yuan that you are so fund of as the height of Tang is called Kai Yuan Shen Shi, and you obviously fail to understand the definition of this term. The historian did not refer to this as military height, but cultural and prosperity height. You have so far shown absolutely nothing worthwhile to back up your prove and you consistently deny your mistakes.







And here is a perfect example of your head on ranting without stop. How many time to I have to tell you that all you've done is giving me numbers. I want quality. Do you even know what the definition of troop quality is? Ask any militarist and see if they will give your erroneous definition of fighting more battles. Fighting more battle has nothing to do with strength of the military, or else Israel would have the strongest miltiary on earth. I've kept on questiong you on these and you've kept on avoiding these replies because you couldn't. The very fact that Wudi is fighting more battles shows that there is constant threat and his reign is not as stable or peaceful as that of later emperors. Yuan Di and Xuan Di didn't fight as uch battles because there isn't much to fight about since Han was alerady supreme, and the battles they did fight, they won all of them.

That was during Wang Mang's reign, show me the chapter where it claim it was during Wudi's reign. And you seem to forget that its after the end of the war that Wudi conquered Korea and South China, which added a large amount of population to the empire. Decline by half? Do you have any common sense? How does a foreign war decline the population by half, there isn't a single instance in history that has that, even the two world wars merely took away a fraction of the population much less than even a quarter. You've taken Han Shu literally just as you've done with all your other petty arguments.











First I said after 65 B.C. so there is nothing wrong with my statement. I've already shown my sources and even the exact chapter, look back, Here is the passage from Han Shu. "Yuan Shou Er Nien Chuen Zheng Yue, Xiongnu Chang Yu Ji Wu Sun Da Kun Mi Yi Ci mi jiezhi lai Chao, Han Yi wei Long."
Translated: in the second year of Yuan Shou, the Xiongnu Chang Yu and the Wu Sun great Kun Mi(king of wusun) Mi Yi came to court to to obeiance, the Han's honor is great. I don't know how you can weasle and tongue twist out of this one. The king of Wusun himself came to court to do obeisance, its very clear that Wusun is a vassal a heavily influenced vassal as well.



Thats obviously wrong because Han did in fact involve in many internal struggles afterwards by dispatching troops. Want the source and events?

[quote]No, After defeated Zhizi, Kangju was barely mentioned during Yuandi times. Quote your source.[/quote]No to what? Here is the same passage that comes right after the Wusun Kun Mi and Chang Yu coming to court. "Er Kang Gu, Da Yue Qi, An xi, Yensai, Wu Ge Zhi SHU ci yi gue yuan bu zi shu zhong, qi lai xian gong." Translated: But vassals such as Kang Gu, Da Yue Qi, An xi, Yensai, Wu Ge were too far away so they isn't withing the number to give tribute. There is certain flaw in the passage, its doubtful that Ansi(Parthia) and Da Yue Qi are vassals but there is no reason to suppose that the Yensai and Kang Gu isn't, the Han has a well record of Kanggu on its population and military strength. And Yensai is heavily economicly dependent on the Han and could barely live without Han's products and were quite willing to claim legitimancy of Han.


[quote]Yes, Wang Mang did sent four orders to Chanyu after two Xiyu kings fled to Xiongnu, but Chanyu did not really obeyed, and it never stated Wuhuan still have to paid tribute to Xiongnu, infact Wuhuan obeyed the Zhaotiao (rules) which set by Wang Mang and eventually angered the Xiongnu, the Xiongnu raided and killed hundred of them afterwards.[/quote]

The point is WuHuan is a Han vassal, and you're wrong when you claim it wasn't.

[quote]I could barely agreed, also Yelang wasn't in Yunnan but Guizhou, and they were never under part of Yizhou Jun. Read Tongdian, after Wei (not Jin, he was not yet titled Wendi either) had conquered Shu, census revealed 280,000 households, 940,000 populations, 102,000 soldiery and 40,000 offcials, Tai minority was not included in this registration. Before Jin conquered Wu, the Wu had a registerred population of 2,300,000 and 520,000 households (242 AD). After Jin conquered Wu, the Wu had 4 Zhou, 43 Jun, 313 Xian, 523,000 households, 320,00 offcials, 230,000 soldiery and 2,300,000 population. The entire population of Jin was given as 2,459,840 households with 16,163,863 population. The Jin incresed 986,381 households and 8,490,982 (8 millions) population in 18 years. In which many of them were unregistered during chaos. [/quote]Thus my point.

[quote]Yet you didn't even stated earlier[/quote]

I don't need to, I said it was the stronger DURING Zheng Guan, DURINg doesn't mean its the whole reign, it could be one year or all of the reign but as long as it fell within the scope of the reign.

[quote]Go check out my perviouly post, I said during a victory battle of Songzhou. And Xujiang does not literal means marring off. [/quote]Nor does it in any way imply forced marriage as you claim, so whats your point?

[quote]Tubo wasn't a vassel of Zhenguan.[/quote]

Wrong, it was, and I've already shown you my source on it. Now back up your claim.


[/quote]You're kidding, tarim was occupied during Zhenguan and Li Zhi for even less than 20 years.[QUOTE]

No, thats all of tarim, most of tarim was occupied for 30 years. By 648 all of tarim is subjugated, but most of it was subjugated long before.

And read your post: And you really ought to read something about the so called siberia parts history, it was not merely annxed in Zhengguan but Longshuo.




No we haven't, I claimed Xuan Di and Yuan Di's reign is superior not Wudi's. And so far you haven't told me how Wudi's reign is superior to Xuan Di's as I ask for the third time

There is no freaken way tha Wudi's reign is the height of Han, Xuan Di's reign is clearly superior in all aspects. While at least during Yuan Di Han influence spread further west and further north, therefore I think it was superior to Xuan Di as well.

I haven't installed a Chinese reading program into my new computor yet, so don't give me anything in Chinese because they won't appear. Whats commonly stated? Show me your source. Kai Yuan and Tien Bao is wealthier and internally stronger, this I didn't disagree, but externally Tang during 630-665 is the strongest where its a unipolar power without challenge.




And as I said you are been sino centric. And again Kai Yuan and Tien Bao was clearly called cultural and economic height not miltiary or political height. Show me the passage where Tang Shu claim Tien Bao is miltiarily and politically stronger than Zheng Guan. In fact I've already shown that your petty argument on peace is wrong by simply examining the miltiary garrisons presented in both eras, Kai Yuan had far more garisons on the border because it had constant threat while there is virtually none in zheng Guan because there is no powerful enemy to even challenge Tang let alone threaten it. Tang during Zheng Guan is a unipolar power, Tang during Kai Yuan wasn't.

Peak of Tang as culturally and economically as I've already said but not the height of Tang as a world power as I said.




Don't know, I've merely came across it in English books, ask the author. I merely mispelled Jiu Tang Shu, don't be such a pain in the a**.

There is nothing more important than the subjugation of the Xiongnu which is what all the territory annexation os about. Thus most importantly xiongnu was not subjugated during Wudi therefore Wudi's reign was not stronger than his suceessors.



What are you bickering about? Zhong Xin doesn't contradict Zhi shi. Zhong Xin translated as middle height could also be a Zhi Shi. Xuan di's reign is a Zhi Shi, its often called Xiao Xuan Zhi Shi or sometimes Han Xuan Zhi Shi. And Wudi had neither Zhi Shi or Zhong xin given to his reign so I fail to see how its the height of Han. I've read that passage of how he compares to King Xuan, its Ban Gu's words. And you still haven't told me how Wudi's reign is superior than his.


http://cn.netor.com/know/hist/hist4.htm, I have another book source which is not with me. This also clearly claims tha tEastern Han's economy is superior to western Han's.



Its not something that needs to be emphasized, all nations measure their power by their relative position against another, and those with the greatest ability to spread their infleuence through military power and economic pressure are considered the greatest power of the time. The relative position of both Xuan-Yuan Di and Tai Zong-Gao Zong is superior to Wudi and Xuan Zong's reign by this definition. Since the former are unipolar powers while the later aren't, in fact as already pointed out, its not even clear which power had the upper hand during Wudi's reign, the xiongnu or the Han. Its not until later Zhao Di's time that the Han had a clear superiority. Wudi's Han never had the conflict dampening role that a unipolar state such as Han during xuan di-wang mang or such as the U.S. could exercise. There its absolutely clear that his reign isn't the height of Han and Xuan di's is superior in everyway.

[Edited by Mod as it contains verbal attacks words]

Yimanrongdi has been issued a warning for using provocative and offensive language towards Warhead despite previous requests from the moderators to refrain from doing so. Warhead will also receive a warning if he continues to use offensive language towards Yimanrongdi.

This thread has deviated alot from its original purpose, although it has been educational for all of us. Anyway, the original purpose was itself dangerous because Warhead got into a very ugly quarrel with another guy on AE about the Han vs. Rome issue only a few weeks ago. Warhead, you may be a moderator on AE, but on CHF you are obliged to respect the forum rules yourself. And that means strictly no personal attacks, whether in retaliation or not.

Also, let it be stated here that no-one on this forum is to dismiss another forum member as an 'amateur', as if there were something very wrong with that. We are all amateurs on this forum, as long as we are not professional historians. If you have a PhD and are a professor of history, let us know. But I can say in all frankness that this is not the way that professors debate with one another.

Now, follow my earlier instructions and summarise your arguments in point-by-point format, or I will close this thread because it is becoming useless to the rest of us.

I woudln't if he doesn't, just my philosophy, if someone bites me I bite them back. :angry:

Well, now I got my program and I can read Chinese on screen, this quote also show plainly that "Han Zhi Ji shen Ye" or the height of Han's population. So I'm right when I said that 2 a.d.'s population is superior to Wudi's because it clearly mentions that the census was the height of Han, therefore population did grow after Xuan Di. In fact its common sense, the law of biology sattes that a population given the condition to grow will grow until its overpopulated. And since peace and prosperity reigned, the population did grow.

Warhead, it was you who first used strong language like "absolutely not" and "freaken", and Yimanrongdi retaliated by using even stronger language like "what the hell" and "please awake". The verbal assaults just escalated from there. So do remember who you're dealing with in future - YMRD is not one to restrain himself from biting back either. And this forum is for reasonable humans, not angry dogs. ;)

Guan Li was a legendary General from which dynasty?

Whats wrong with absolutely not? Its he who began the insult such as your Mindless.