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Full Version: What is this weapon? Jili 蒺藜?
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Wujiang
In terms of warring states military, what does 蒺藜 means ? Is it a weapon or a form of military unit ?
General_Zhaoyun
QUOTE(Wujiang @ Apr 7 2005, 01:29 AM)
In terms of warring states military, what does 蒺藜 means ? Is it a weapon or a form of military unit ?
[snapback]4710871[/snapback]


蒺藜 Ji2 Li2 - This is a type of old weapon

"Ji Li" is also referring to a type of herbal medicine.

Check
http://cb.kingsoft.com/search?lang=utf-8&s...97%9C&d=PWDCCAC
for the dictionary explanation.
Yun
Jili were caltrops, spiked objects scattered on the ground or in moats to pierce the feet of enemy attackers. See:
http://nd.cnnb.com.cn/article.html?id1=1202

General_Zhaoyun
Jili is somewhat equivalent to today's "mine" (in modern warfare to stop tanks/infantry approaching).

These are obstacles that chinese troops deployed to stop infantry/cavalry advance.
ih8eurocentrix
wat dynasty is this from...
the ninjistus used caltrops did they learn from the chinese
General_Zhaoyun
QUOTE
战国时期已使用铁蒺藜。秦汉以后,铁蒺藜成为军队中常用的防御器材,除在道路、防御地带、城池四周布设外,部队驻营时,也有营区四周布设。宋代以后铁蒺藜的种类逐渐增多,如布设在水中的“铁菱角”,联缀于木板上的“地涩”,拦马用的“蹄”,在刺上涂敷毒药的“鬼箭”等。明代军队广泛使用铁蒺藜。铁蒺藜制造简易,敷设方便。除用铁铸造外,也可以用竹、木、陶代替。2000多年来,它一直是战争中应用的障碍器材。


http://nd.cnnb.com.cn/article.html?id1=1202

I'll translate the above:

The use of Jili began during the warring states period. After Qin and han dynasty, Jili has always been the chinese army's defensive weaponry. Besides laying them at roads, defensive region, around the walls of city etc, the chinese army also put them around their military camps when they were on mission/campaigns. During the Song dynasty, the variety of different types of "Jili" increase. For instance, those deployed in water were known as "tie ling Jiao 铁菱角", those used on wooden floor are known as "di se 地涩", those used to block horses are known as "ti 蹄", some were even stained with poisons known as "Gui Jian 鬼箭". The ming dynasty troops also greatly used Jili. The Jili was made of iron casting, but other materials such as bamboo, wood, ceramics can be used as well. This was an effective obstacle weaponry.

Note that the Jili can also have holes in them which can have chain-ropes to strap through, forming a chain of "Jili". This makes it easier to lay the Jili as well as to re-coil them back after use.
Wujiang
Thanks guys
much appreciated
General_Zhaoyun
Actually, the Jili was usually used as a form of weapon to halt the advancement of cavalry. It functions a little like the mines of today. Usually, each Jili is linked together by chain-wire (ropes) and can be easily deployed on land. When the horses of the enemy cavalry passes by, the Jili would pierce and hurt the horses's feet causing them to fall, stopping or delaying the advancement of cavalry. When unused, they are rolled up.

In the Drama series "Genghis Khan" filmed by PRC, there are scenes of this weapon. When the Mongols discover the Jin army deploying the Jili to stop/delay their cavalry advancement, they collected these weapons and used that against the Jin army later on.
ih8eurocentrix
did other culutres around the world invent the caltrop or is a chinese one?
CARDINAL009
Seen examples of that specific implement in Ninja books.
ih8eurocentrix
I read somewere that alexander the greats army spread out caltrops in front of phalanx btw this link is highly dubious in historical accuracy
tadamson
QUOTE(ih8eurocentrix @ Dec 16 2005, 09:07 PM) [snapback]4776926[/snapback]
did other culutres around the world invent the caltrop or is a chinese one?


Fairly common. Romans were particuarly fond of them.
General_Zhaoyun
Here is one more complete picture of the Caltrop. It shows the different design of chinese spikes and that they can all be tied together with ropes.

From Japanese Source:Ancient Chinese Weapons 中国兵器大全 - 筱田耕一



Appearance and Usage

Caltrops were used as a form of obstacle to prevent movement of enemies.

It comprised of :
1) Natural Caltrops such as those of spikey fruits
2) Artificial Caltrops made of iron

Chinese Caltrop has a length of about 4- 5 cm and can be linked together by rope through holes in the center of the caltrops. According to the Ming military text Jixiao Xinshu 《纪效新书》, in 1.6m rope, the normal pitch (i.e. the distance between each caltrop) is around 30 cm, and there would be about 6 caltrops. Normally, there were already connected and can be laid onto the group easily.

When caltrops were to be carried or transported, they were to be placed onto a bamboos container with a wooden cover. When in use, the wooden cover is removed, one can easily turn the container upside down and easily laid the caltrops onto ground without hurting the hand. Caltrops can be painted with feces/urine of poisonous venom, in which case, its killing rate will increase. Because of this, iron caltrops were also known as "Gui Jian 鬼箭" (which means "ghostly arrow")

Another type of caltrop was known as "tie ling jiao 铁菱角" (metal oblique spike). They were normally distributed on the ditch (defensive canal) of city, used for harming the legs of enemy or cavalry's horses.

Other types of caltrops include "Di Ze 地泽“ (land swamp), which had wooden needles nailed onto the caltrops and were used for piercing the legs of horseshoes. There were also specialised caltrops used for toppling the cavalry horses, known as "Ti Quan 踢圈", “Ma Tuo 马托“ etc.
General_Zhaoyun
Here are some more info about the history and development of chinese caltrops:


Caltrop were first used during Spring/Autumn period. In the book "Mozi 《墨子》", it stated that chinese caltrops were used as a defensive siege weapon, deployed around the ditches (defensive river) around the city. As to whether the caltrop was natural or artificial, it was unknown. However, what was clear was that the earliest chinese caltrops were 'natural' caltrops. Later, in order to increase its power, there was a unified specification to produce artificial iron caltrops.

The iron caltrops could possibly appeared latest around Eastern Han period. During 3 kingdoms period, Zhugeliang of Shu state and Sima Yi of Wei state fought at the Plain of Wuzhang. Zhugeliang passed away during that time. In order to stop the advance of Wei Army, the Shu Army retreated while at the same time, spreaded and distributed the Caltrops. To react against this, Sima Yi produced the boots made of soft wooden base, thus counteracting the threat of Caltrops. From the archaeological excavation of battle of Wei-Wu state at Hefei, we could verify that "Di Ze 地泽" could have been used during 3 kingdoms period. " Chou Di 搊蹄" could be used during Age of fragmentation period, used to counteract against Cavalry.


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