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Full Version: Making the Chu-Ko-Nu (Zhuge Nu)
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Yun
QUOTE
Well, yeah some historians believe the ZhugeNu was first invented in the Warring States period but I based my design on an 11th century model. I don't know if any images of a Zhugenu from the Warring States exists. It might look different from this 11th century model but the basic design was probably the same.

OK, I've changed it to ca. 200 B.C.

This is taken from Wikipedia on the Chu-ko-nu.

**********************************
History

Repeating crossbows have a long history, with the oldest accurate written knowledge dating to the Han dynasty (ca. 20-220 A.D.) in China. The Chinese repeating crossbow (诸葛弩, pinyin Zhū Gě nǔ, English transliteration: Chu-ko-nu or Zhuge-nu) is an extremely simple piece of equipment. It is claimed to have been invented by Chinese strategist Zhuge Liang (181-234 A.D.), which is arguable since the earliest drawings of the weapon have been found from the buried library of Chu, dating all the way back to 250 B.C. The Chinese repeating crossbow saw its last serious action in the China-Japan war of 1894-1895, where photographs show repeating crossbows as common weapons among Manchurian troops. The basic construction of this weapon has remained very much unchanged since its invention, making it one of the longest-lived mechanical weapons.

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For a discussion of whether 'Zhuge Nu' type crossbows existed in the Warring States, Qin and Han, see http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...=0#entry4753624

Another example of how Wikipedia is not to be taken as an authority on Chinese military history. Jieming, would you be interested in editing that Wiki article?
Liang Jieming
QUOTE(Yun @ Aug 29 2005, 11:03 PM)
For a discussion of whether 'Zhuge Nu' type crossbows existed in the Warring States, Qin and Han, see http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...=0#entry4753624

Another example of how Wikipedia is not to be taken as an authority on Chinese military history. Jieming, would you be interested in editing that Wiki article?
[snapback]4753625[/snapback]

I've rewritten the article on the Zhugenu based on your comments. Thanks again.

Edit Wiki? I personally find Wiki such a mess and load of crap that I'm loath to even begin.
Yun
QUOTE
I've rewritten the article on the Zhugenu based on your comments. Thanks again.


Did you mean the article on your website? I looked and it's still the same, including the Sawyer passage on "linked crossbows on carriages".
Liang Jieming
Yes I have rewritten that article but left sawyer's paragraph unedited though I've not stated that it is a repeating crossbow, rather that is is an inventive use of the crossbow and let sawyer defend his own words.

I've also rewritten the possible evolution of the repeating crossbow as having been derived from the warring states double barrel crossbow which if the illustrations from thomas chen's book is correct, would be a repeating crossbow as the corking mechanism would be rapid enough to be considered repeating IMO... just not the final ming dynasty form of the zhugenu.
charsiubao
QUOTE(charsiubao @ Jun 28 2005, 12:53 AM) [snapback]4733368[/snapback]
my zhu-ge-nu is 1:1 scale. full size only the bolts are pencil thick, not sharpie thick.
i've started a production run of four more chukonus and the bows are still proving
to be the hardest part. i haven't found a good source for rawhide laces yet either.

the bolts will fire through a cardboard box at close range and the best range so far
has been 40 feet. the bow length is crucial. it needs to be right at the edge between
too big and broken. i want to try bolts with metal tips in the near future, too.


QUOTE(Liang Jieming @ Jun 28 2005, 01:38 AM) [snapback]4733380[/snapback]
You've made one! Good! Please do post pictures here. Let's compare notes.
What's the scale of your zhugenu or did you build a lifesized replica?


here's a picture of the latest one off the assembly line.
still needs the muzzle to be wrapped with ribbon.

ok. no picture. please see my fourth post for this pic.
i will reorganize stuff when i get more pics later.
CARDINAL009
QUOTE(charsiubao @ Jun 27 2005, 09:53 PM) [snapback]4733368[/snapback]
the bolts will fire through a cardboard box at close range and the best range so far
has been 40 feet. the bow length is crucial. it needs to be right at the edge between
too big and broken. i want to try bolts with metal tips in the near future, too.


How you tried using light weight, high density plastic instead of metal tips.
Romain
In case you're interested, I bought 2 Zhugenu in Beijing.

The first is original as it was designed to shoot pellets instead of arrows.
Romain
The second is a bit bigger and probably a bit more recent. It is designed for shooting arrows but the stock is prolongated by a rifle like barrel.

Maybe to add precision ? Or just for the fearsome look...
Liang Jieming
Whoa, I've never read of one that shoots pellets before... and the barrelled one looks like some hi-tech assault weapon! laugh.gif
copdoc
This is a great web site that helped me build a copy of an 12th century Chu-Ko-Nu. I am going to try to add a photo. The photo shows 2 laminates of bamboo and sineu. The final has 3 layers. The first had range of about 40-50 yards. The 3 layer bow can shoot about 200 yards. It surprised me and with the new bow I had to use a piece of hardwood an make a sear as the pine wore out quickly. I used pine initially because I had some and did not expect it to work as well as it did. I used information from this site along with Payne-Gallwey's drawing. Simple modern tools were used but there is nothing there that could not be built with a sharp rock and a lot of time. Timing is everything with getting it to feed right. The bow width seems to be critical. If it is too wide it splits. The larger the bamboo the better. Mine will shoot through both sides of a cardboard box but it is difficult to make it feed when level. Since they were used or indirect fire it would not make much difference.

I enjoyed reading your posts since I know very little Chinese history.
charsiubao
somebody needed to mention the 50k limit
on file attachments a full year ago.
urofpersia
QUOTE(charsiubao @ Apr 7 2006, 01:16 PM) [snapback]4801952[/snapback]
this is fully worth making my third post
just to let my feelings be known.


please use a third party image hosting website such as imageshack to host your pictures. You can then easily hotlink your pictures here.
charsiubao
here's my final attempt to post this pic
i really hope it was worth the heartache.
chizza
[font=Arial]

Im new to this forum cause my friend just showed me this the other day. My dad's building a sunroom so i got plenty of spare wood. I just wanted to know a few things though. I wanted to know what string you use for bowstrings. And also, is there an actual name for your carving set, because I want to ask for a set for my birthday. btw I saw all your projects and they are cool. Hoping to do something like that when I am older.
Liang Jieming
Just ask for a simply woodcarving tool set. Basic blades, curved blades, angled blades and flat planers. wink.gif

Do post photos when you're built one!

copdoc, you too!
Liang Jieming
QUOTE(charsiubao @ Apr 7 2006, 02:23 PM) [snapback]4801970[/snapback]
here's my final attempt to post this pic
i really hope it was worth the heartache.

Dude, what happened to your bowstring? It's outside the magazine slot.
chizza
Now that I know people actually answer extremely quick, I am going to ask a few more questions

-what do you use as the bowstring(do you actuallly use stretchy string, or is it all in the wood
-what length are your bolts for the crossbow, and what material are they made of(tips and shafts)
-For the crouching tiger catapult, what do you use for the counterweight, is it just lead? If so, can you melt it with a regular flame or will you need a smelter
-Can you put your other assignments on the site, and if you already have, could you reply me with a list of all of them on this and other forums, because I'm not sure if making such a complicated weapon like the repeating crossbow should be my starting point.

BTW I am learning Ancient China's history right now in school, I hope we get shown their weapons so next year or something I can say I made a replica of that one. As soon as I get the wood carving set i'll probably start working on one of your weapons

Thanks for all your help and your previous reply

Fogot to add, how do you get those pics under your name whenever you post a reply?
Liang Jieming
QUOTE(chizza @ Nov 1 2006, 01:20 PM) [snapback]4859093[/snapback]
-what do you use as the bowstring(do you actuallly use stretchy string, or is it all in the wood

I've used twine. Don't go with something that'll stretch. Defeats the purpose.

QUOTE

-what length are your bolts for the crossbow, and what material are they made of(tips and shafts)
Exactly the length of the magazine. My bolts fit with little to spare inside the magazine. The shaft is made of bamboo. The tips are supposed to be iron dipped in poison but I just carved the tips onto the same bamboo shaft and painted them metallic silver for effect.

QUOTE

-For the crouching tiger catapult, what do you use for the counterweight, is it just lead? If so, can you melt it with a regular flame or will you need a smelter

Chinese catapults used very simple bags of stones or rectangular boxes slung onto the catapult throwarms. You can do exactly the same. If you need to use lead, your throwarm is probably too heavy. Thin down the arm a bit more. The scaling should be the same whether you build a life sized catapult or a scaled model.

QUOTE

-Can you put your other assignments on the site, and if you already have, could you reply me with a list of all of them on this and other forums, because I'm not sure if making such a complicated weapon like the repeating crossbow should be my starting point.
GZ already has a thread on all my projects here.
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=5206

QUOTE

Fogot to add, how do you get those pics under your name whenever you post a reply?

Go to your settings and upload a photo. wink.gif
chizza
heh... thanks again biggrin.gif , but i'll probably keep asking you questions until I have a full idea of everything. tongue.gif
I wanted to ask you these:
-when you fire your bolts, you said you used bamboo with carved ends painted. Dont they spin when fired? And also, isn't bamboo hollow? Don't you need weights at the tip?
-Does the bolt HAVE to be same length of the shaft to work well?
-Do you use bamboo for the bow areas for the ballista & triple siege crossbow? If not, what did you use?

Thanks again... Sorry for all the questions, but you'll probably have to get used to it because I always come up with problems... smile.gif
chizza
Man..The questions keep coming to my head. So annoyin ranting.gif
Here is one more to add to the list
-Do you use any things to keep the arrow in balance, like in movies etc. they use the 3 feather tips at the end which keeps them balanced. Do you use them? because i never see them in your pics. i just see arrows with silver heads but no tail.
chizza
Also... tongue.gif
-What wood did you use for the bow? and in some I saw you use bamboo, but how? do you cut them in half or anything?

Thanks again... I'll probably be doing more thinking tonight g.gif
Liang Jieming
d****t! I already replied with a long post and then lost everything when CHF got corrupted back 3 days.

Ok, short answers.

- You're welcome to post questions. I'll just ignore you if they become irritating. wink.gif

- There's no rifling in the barrel so the bolts don't spin. The zhugenu is a short range weapon. Don't require the spin for accuracy at long ranges.

- No metal tips in my model, just silver nailpolish on carved tips.

- Shouldn't have weights at the tip but instead balance the bolt or it'll dip when fired.

- Bamboo is hollow but these bolts are made from the walls of the bamboo hollow.

- The bolts should fit just nicely into the magazine or the loose bolts might jam the mechanism when firing.

- I've used bamboo only for the triple bow but not for the ballista since the ballista doesn't require the flexural capacity of bamboo in it's arms.

- The zhugenu is short ranged and hence you won't need the tailfins. Besides, tailfins would not fit into the magazines and are not present in the originals. The triple bow bolts probably should have tail fins but then again, they did fire javelins/spears for short range artillery and not necessarily for long range flights.

- I used spliced bamboo.
copdoc




I think this will work. It is a low res pic from the PDA but you can see it.

(Jieming, Fell free to post the photos I sent you if these do not come work.)
copdoc
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