I thought we should devote a discussion on the "Hundred Yue" people, which is also called the "Bai Yue" 百越 ,since our vietnamese members such as Like2learn, Zhou Taiyu, Ahman is quite interested in Vietnamese ancestry which somehow is related to the Yue people.

Chinese historians during Qin/Han period have collectively called the nomadic people of the north as "Hu 胡" people (such as XiongNu, Qiang, Jie, Xianbei, Wuhuan etc.), while the 'uncivilized' people of the south as "Yue" people. During Han Wudi's period, he led a conquest of what's today Guangdong and Fujian province, and northern Vietnam, where a large population of "Yue" people dwelled. This occurred roughly around 130 BC (uhmm.. not sure the exact date). Because there were many groups within the "Yue" people, there were also called "Bai Yue" 百越, which means "hundred Yue"

I've already posted an article at

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2252


History of Yue People

Basically, during the spring/autumn and warring states period times, the people that dwelled in the southern region of what's called "Zhejiang", "Fujian", "Guangdong" provinces today and northern part of "Vietnam" are called "Yue" people. The Yue people are quite diverse and have many clans and tribal federation. The Yue people are considered by the civilized chinese of the central plain (中原) as uncivilized and therefore barbaric. Because of so many clans and tribes, the Yue people are also called the "Hundred Yue or Baiyue" (百越).

During the Spring/Autumn period, among the Yue people, the tribes that are more advanced and civilized will have to include the "Yue" (越) clan and " Gou Wu" (句吴) clan. During those times, they dwelled in the region of the lake Tai. The Yue clan founded the Yue state (in today's Zhejiang province region) while the Gou Wu established the Wu state (in today's Jiangsu province region). Later, the Wu state defeated the Yue state and the king of Yue, "Gou Jian" (勾践) had to rear horses for the king of Wu, "Fu Chai" (夫差). However, the king of Yue later gained trust from the king of Wu and he was allowed to return to Yue kingdom. Legend had it that after he returned to Yue kingdom, he worked very hard to make his kingdom strong. Finally after 10 years of hardwork, he finally defeated the Wu state. However, by the late Warring states period, the Kingdom of Yue was conquered by the Chu kingdom (one of the 7 strong states during the warring states period).

Although the Yue kingdom was conquered by the chu kingdom, the Yue people survived. The Yue people of former yue state and Wu state intermixed with the Hua Xia people (ancestors of Han-chinese) . After the warring states period, the "hundred Yue' term began to become popular. During the Western Han period, the people of the south were officially called "Hundred Yue". The "Yue" (越) could also referred to another Yue "粤" (which means "cantonese").

During the early Han dynasty period, the "Hundred Yue" were divided into "Eastern Ou" (东瓯), "Min Yue" (闽越), "Southern Yue" (南越), "Western Ou" (西瓯), "Luo Yue" (骆越) etc, main groups.

1. "Eastern Ou" (东瓯) - also known as "Ou Yue" (瓯越). They dwelled in the region of previous Yue and Wu state. (today's Zhejiang Wenzhou region)

2. "Min Yue" (闽越) - also within the region of previous Yue state (today's Fujiang province) - these were the ancestors of the "Min" chinese people today (who speaks Hokkien dialect)

3. "Southern Yue" (南越) - within the region of today's Guangdong province, later developed into the region of Guangxi province and its south part. They were the ancestors of cantonese today.

4. "Western Ou" (西瓯) - within the region of today's western part of Guangdong province and southern part of Guangxi province

5. "Luo Yue" (骆越) - today's north Vietnam region. The ancient Luo Yue people were the direct ancestors of today's Vietnamese. Today's vietnam in chinese is called "Yue Nan" (越南), which means south of Yue.

The above Yue people were all conquered by Emperor Han Wudi during his military expansion campaign of the south and after that, these regions in the south became part of the Han provinces. After this conquest, the term "Hundred Yue" disappeared from the history records of the chinese. Some of the Yue people were sinificised and mixed with the Han-chinese. Some of the Yue people became the ancestors of today's "Gao Shan" ethnic
(高山族) in Taiwan. Another Yue faction became today's "Dai" ethnic (傣族) in southern China. Others became today's "Zhuang" ethnic (壮族), "Bu Yi" ethnic (布依族), "Tong" ethnic (侗族), "Shui" ethnic (水族) in Southern China.

Basically, today's "Zhuang" ethnic (壮族) and "Tong" ethnic (侗族) in South China were related to the polynesian people in south-east asia.

It is thus important to note that Yue was a generic term to referred to barbarian people of the south during warring states.

Now, if someone can point to me the detail history of their migration, their mixing and their sinification, I would be very glad.

I only know the genetic difference between North and South Chinese. North Chinese is known for sure but the South Chinese must have been the Yue. I can't answer that part. Let me ask my Vietnamese scholar and how he has learned Vietnamese history

The legend goes that the Bai Yue were descended from 100 children born from an egg sac laid by Au Co (Yu Ji 妪姬), the wife of Lac Long Quan (Luo Long Jun 貉龙君), the founding father of the Yue people.

[Do let me know if the Chinese characters are incorrect, they seem to vary in different sources]

how do you know about that story? what about it? Can you elaborate on that story? I am interested to know

I'm sure you can find it on lots of Vietnamese websites on their history - there will be quite a few in English.

Basically, Lac Long Quan was the son of the King of Jingyang (Kinh Dong Vuong 泾阳王), who ruled a Kingdom called the Red Ghosts (Chigui/Xich Quy 赤鬼). The King of Jingyang swam to the bottom of Lake Dongting 洞庭 in Hunan, and married the daughter of the dragon spirit who ruled the lake. This was Lac Long Quan's mother.

The King of Jingyang himself was a descendant of Shennong 神农, the legendary Chinese Sage-King. His father had met a fairy while touring the Nanling Mountains 南岭 in the north of Guangdong, and married her.

Lac Long Quan succeeded his father as the ruler of Chigui, and taught his people to grow rice and wear clothes. But he spent most of his time underwater in the sea. A distant cousin attacked and seized his kingdom while he was away, but Lac Long Quan rushed back and defeated the cousin. He also captured his cousin's wife (or daughter, according to other sources) and married her - this was Au Co.

Because Lac Long Quan liked to live in the sea and Au Co liked to live on land, they decided to split their 100 sons between them. The eldest son stayed on land and became the ruler of the kingdom, and his name was Hung Vuong (Xiong Wang 雄王). He founded the dynasty that ruled Van Lang until it was overthrown by the King of Anyang.

The account above leaves one thing out, so what happened to the original Wu-Yue people? From 瓯越 south are some very difficult terrain for that time period, it would seem unlikely that all the original inhabitants of Wu-Yue simply took off south. This notion of ONE Yue origin seems to me quite unfounded.



I think you are confusing 蛮 Man4 (southern barbarian) with 越 Yue4. 越 referred to the Yue Kingdom in most historical accounts then. Baiyue term wasn't used until much later.

Yes, that's exactly my point. Yue was first referred to Yue Kingdom.

You are the King of Ou Yue. What did you know about Ou Yue folktale story?

I have nothing to do with Ou Yue and Ou in Wenzhou, a city in southern Zhejiang (if you don't know where it is) has different dialect and practices from the people in northern Zhejiang, where Yue Kingdom was founded, though some elites fled to the south after the kingdom's downfall, just like any dynasties or kingdoms.

any story formation how your kingdom was found

A much more likely scenario of Baiyue is this: Southern China was very diverse, with various ethnicities and tribes of different origins (Thai, Austroasiatic, Austronesian) and quite regionalized (this point is important); when the Sinitic influence came, each region absorbed the Sinicization to different degrees. The main migrations south were done by the Han Chinese, not indigenous peoples. This means that the Vietnamese and the other "Yue" groups are not the original inhabitants of Wu-Yue, nor are the inhabitants of Wu-Yue necessarily more Sinicized than other regions. There is no "pure Yue" continuum here from north to south (south being "purer"); they weren't even one people.

The diversity of southern dialects is living proof of this mozaic of peoples living in southern China.

To say they were one people is like calling the Mongolian a more authentic Manchurian. Ridiculous.

Au Co (Cien-a living being from heaven, could be depicted as mountains) and Lac Long Quan (Long-a living being from water). The meaning in that story, the Yue are the true descendents of Cien and Dragon. 100 eggs stand for Bai Yue, too many kinds of Yue as standing for their last names. 50 went to the moutains and 50 went to the sea, represent the spilt of several Yue Kingdoms, but are truly genetically related. There will be more
Let me ask, how the Southern Chinese and Pacific Islanders are genetically related? Even with the polynesians in Hawaii are related to the Southern Chinese? How about Indonesian? What do you know about Indo-China?

I am not talking about the Vietnamese. I will lead you to why they used Vietnam as the name for their country. Why did they throw the Han Chinese out in for more than 1000 years under the influence of Hans. They had histories that made sense a lot in order to persuade the Zhao Zhi people to rebel against the Chinese

Like2learn, please keep the topic to the discussion of the Yue people and not side-track or go Off-topic to the discussion of "Southern Chinese and Pacific Islanders are genetically related". Such kind of discussion is irrelevant in this topic and if you wish to discuss that, please do it in our Asian History forum.

I don't discuss about that topic because it is a fact. I want to go beyond that fact.

Since you already 'establish it as a fact', then why do you still ask it?

You have to be warned for 'hijacking' the thread. Please keep the topic to the discussion of the Yue people. Otherwise, I'll have to edit or split your irrelevant post in order to maintain the quality of posting.

Please contribute more info on what you know about the Yue people, and not just 'ask question that you actually already know the answer'.

Nishishei, your saying mirrors my thought exactly hahahaha!
Hey, I dunno why people are interested in the Yue so much? If Yue had been conquered by Wu I think less people would have claimed to be related to Yue. Unfortunately Yue, a barbarian kingdom even became one of the hegemon of Spring and Autumn period so many started claiming to be related to that Yue.
No, even the grand historian of Vietnam wrote that the Yue that Vietnamese related, at best, were the Yue from GuangDong. There was no mention of Yue in ZheJiang. Anyone who studies a bit of history knows that. If there is any relation at all, it is not about ethinicity and race but some common cultural features of sea-borne communities (Dong Yi, Yue, Min, NanYue and LuoYue).
Ask Vietnamese if they really care about history of the Cham. There was no mention of Cham ethinicity until recently in school history textbooks. People boasted about great southward expansion of their ancestors, and can you see the simliarity between China and Vietnam in this aspect? What did the Cham feel? So why should you accuse China while you condone Vietnam's unjustice? Cham was just conquored 3 hundred years ago but today how many Cham are left in the South? Many Vietnamese have intermarried with Cham and today there are only a few Cham communities in the middle and southern most parts of Vietnam. In a few more decades I doubt there will be any true Cham left. So should the descendants of the Cham, who also have Vietnamese blood flowing in them want to indentify themselves with Cambodian, and start begrudging about their "ancestors" being oppressed by Vietnamese? Ask youself that question like2learn, and then compare the situation of so-called Wu Yue people in ZheJiang and JiangSu or even Yue in GuangDong, and multiply that by 6 fold (2000 years compared to 300 years).
I suggest people should just ignore his post. He's not up to something. I'd rather think he just has some tumour in the brain.

I agree. It seems strange for Vietnamese to be claiming common ancestry with the Malays and Indonesians when the Cham would have a much better claim to that.

I dunno if there is any reason for Vietnamese and Chinese both use the term tongbao (同胞 -same egg sac), but it could well be Vietnamese historians who copied this term from Chinese and made up a story for their own. See how HuangDi was made up in Zhou period (not remember quite well here) the story of Luo Long Jun and Au Ji could have been well made up by historians who were concious about their country and their people.

Yes, the identification of Shennong as an ancestor suggests an attempt to have an older pedigree than the Chinese.

Is any Chinese story that includes Luo Long Jun and Au Ji ? I want to know

No, there isn't.

I used to wonder if the Bai Yue were the same as the Austronesians. I now doubt it. This seems to be what you are arguing?

Also, you are now under Mod Preview because of your tendency to divert discusions towards your pet theory about a Pan-Yue nationality. Your posts will be approved by a moderator before they can be visible to members.

"Another Yue faction became today's "Dai" ethnic (傣族) in southern China"

Hmm. Just curious, since I can't read chinese. Is "Dai" the same as the "Tai" ethnic group that's also in, I think, Kunming, they speak the same Tai language and also had Songkran holiday...

If that's the case, it'll be interesting to note the Yue were ancestors of the "Tai" in China, our theory's that we migrate down from the Xinjian/ Mongol regions to present day Southern China, Northern Vietnam, Laos, Thailand, and Burma...

Yes, it's the same word, now pronounced as Dai (3rd tone) in China. These are the same Tai who moved into Southeast Asia from Yunnan around the 12th and 13th centuries, and now form the majority in Thailand and Laos and a minority in Vietnam and Burma. I've heard that some Vietnamese scholars are now exploring the cultural links between Yue and Tai.

a descendant of 3rd generation from Than (a deity) Nong (agriculture), Đế Minh, promoted his child, Lộc Tục as a King Dương Vương in the South of China which was around Sông Dương Tử. The land was close to Động Đình Hồ. King Dương Vương married to Động Đình Quân's daughter (dragon ancestry), with the title, Long Nữ (female dragon). They had a child together and his name was Lạc Long Quân.
If you want to know more details about him, you are welcome to go to the link:
http://kicon.com/stories/hundredeggs/e2.html

Lạc Long Quân loved to be around the sea and water areas and perhaps, created many customs and practices for the Yue. One time he met Âu Cơ (giống Tiên) on the mountains and he fell in love with her right away. They had lived together for a long time. Âu Cơ taught the villagers how to do agriculture, farming rice and vegetables. Wherever they went, they were welcome by people all the time. After a while of living together, she bore a sack of eggs that had a hundred children. One day, Lạc Long Quân missed his own life and decided to go back to the sea where he originally came from. They split the group of their children 50 and 50.
From these children, there came out to be Bách Việt. The Bách Việt (a Hundred Yue) had both land culture and aquaculture to adapt to nature. The one with Âu Cơ stayed up on the land and the first child to be the king, Hùng Vương, stationed at Văn Lang. These practiced matrimony (last name past on by females). The Lạc Long Quân descendents practiced patrimony (last name past on by males) and created the aqua culture.

The focus of both ways of living was great. They had legendary stories and backed up for some of the customs. I am sure there were many more among the 100 Yue.
Lunar New Year (rice cakes)
Phù Đổng Thiên Vương (trojan horse to fight against the North, giặc Ân) (from ShangHai)
sự tích Trầu Cau
Trống Đồng Ngọc Lũ or Đông Sơn

The Yue were the people who liked to live in peace, not competition, unlike the Hans.
These stories were also popular before the invasion of the Han and probably were forgotten after the sinicization.

Legend of Lac Long Quan - Au Co has been passed by tradition in Vietnam for thousands of years now. The historical a Hundred Yue took place around the Yangtze River agriculture people and passed down to the south of it to Hai Nam, currently South China. Besides, there were the local villagers also, but not many.
The writing for a Hundred Yue was rather close to the shape of the worms. The food they ate was basically rice and fish, where the fish sauce could be from there. They had a ying and yang concept, so every single vocabulary must have syllables. The cloth was close to the drawings as the above link. After the sinicization, the cloth style changed. They beliefs were animism, venerating ancestors, ghosts. So they had totems such as the birds and dragons. Their civilization lasted for around 2000 years until the invasions of the Hans. Their girls were the most prettiest one that many neighboring kingdoms tried to take over the 100 Yue. Some of the Yue had their own kingdoms and some of them had tribes.
They were not allow to practice their own culture such as official language in writing, dress, and beliefs.

This 100 Yue story is based on Vietnamese oral traditions, only. It was very popular in the Red River Delta although they were not officially allowed to publicize it.

This is the Chinese culture hero Shennong 神农, who developed agriculture and herbal medicine.



This should be Kinh Duong Vuong (Jingyang Wang 泾阳王, the King of Jingyang)

Can't make out the Chinese characters for these words.



Dong Dinh Quan is Dongting Jun 洞庭君, the (dragon) lord of Lake Dongting. His daughter is Longnu 龙女 (Dragon Girl).



I think Giong Tien is Jiangxian 绛仙, "immortal/fairy descended from heaven". This is why Vietnamese like to say they are descended from a dragon and a fairy. But if you read my earlier post, there is another version that says Au Co was the wife or daughter of an enemy ruler whom Lac Long Quan captured.

Dương Tử river

I will post more the history of Luo Yue in post-invasion of Han and why some of the artifacts, such as the bronze drums, were buried into the ground. I am assuming that it could similarly have happened to the rest of the Bai Yue. I hope the Mods agree with me to let me post continuing from the previous one. What do you say Mods?

A pretty good account by Jeffery Barlow of research on the history of the Bai Yue: http://mcel.pacificu.edu/as/resources/zhua...r-Chapter-47857
http://mcel.pacificu.edu/as/resources/zhua...r-CHAPTER-37516

I think these words by him are a good caution to anyone, Chinese or Vietnamese, who takes it for granted that a large, unified Yue civilisation existed:



Also an article by him on Yue weapons: http://mcel.pacificu.edu/as/resources/zhuang/zhuang2-1.htm

I never said that the Bai Yue had the same culture and custom. Yun, the article is just a debating paper. He was looking for artifacts that could be easily interpreted as one source of a unified culture. The orally traditional story was aware of other existing people other than the Yue. The Yue were never united as one political party. For the Vietnamese, it is a treasure since many others were lost due to Chinese invasion.

The Hundred Yue could well be the Hakka reference:

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...topic=221&st=30

I asked these questions on the Genetic Differences thread. They didn't get answered or even noticed, which is strange because I find them to be quite crucial to the whole Bai Yue = Austronesians theory proposed by such members as Like2learn and Foldup Gryphon. Perhaps they will be answered here.

Were the Yue or Bai Yue related in any way to the Austronesians?

If not, did they speak Austro-Asiatic, or Tai-Kadai?

Are the Taiwanese Aboriginal Peoples related to the Austronesians, or to the Bai Yue?

If they are related to the Bai Yue and not the Austronesians, then is the theory of an Austronesian origin point in Taiwan discredited?

I could not reply earlier to the questions because there are no ready answers. There are a number of tentative answers all of which are contradictory and incoherent. But if you must press for some answers I can offer some of the contradictions.

Dapenkeng Culture (5000-2500 BC) covered the region of Guangdong, Fujian, and west cost of Taiwan was believed by academics to be proto Austronesian. Many experts do agreed that there is a sizable Austronesian speakers among the native aborigines on Taiwan today. Coming out of the text book, they believe Guangxi, Guangdong, and Taiwan to be the original home of all Austronesians speakers!

Covering the same area (1000-500 BC) the same Mei Tsu-lin and Jerry Norman offered evidence of Austro-Asiatic language presence. Further they do assert that Yue and specifically the Hundred Yue were Austro-Asiatic speakers. This of cause could be a muddle between the natives of Guangxi and Guangdong to that of the real hundred Yue or the actual Yue from the former hegemonic Yue kingdom.

South Vietnam has the same contradiction in that traditionally it is believe by academics to be Austronesian. Later research pointed to an Austro-Asiatic perhaps at a later date.

Conclusion: Austro-Asiatic speakers came and forced Austronesian speakers up on to the Yangtze Delta. The Austronesian Dapenkeng culture migrated from Guangxi, Guangdong, and Fujian on to the Yangtze Delta and gave birth to the Liangzhu Culture of the jade and feather headdress fame.

-----------------
Are Miao/Hmong ethnicity part or decendants of ancient Bai Yue ?

The script Ceonni has is for Mango, a Min (Mindong) dialect in southern Zhejiang.

Mango? Now that's an interesting name

I don't think so, their ancestors were probably to the north west of them.

It is surprising that the character are very similar to curent Korean character (Hanguel) which might referred very old character, Garimtoh (according to some nationalist scholars).
According to these scholars, the Garimtoh characters originate from the age of Guryi (or Kori? the name later used for Koguryo - High Guryo), Guryi was the very old kingdom (including even Sumer? the legendary central Asia kingdom from middle east to pacific - for me, this was not Korean but pan-Asia kingdom - just before the story of Chi-You (Dong-Yi).
This could be also the characters of Dong-Yi. Miao has Chi-You as an ancester, so Fujian Min (Man?) also has the same ancester? A great mystery of archeological value

Please tell me where the Man people and language (or character) originate from?
Please

what is this connection i keep reading about between the southern yue people of china and the vietnamese? is yue an ethnic minority group? were they conquered by the han chinese at about the same time as the vietnamese also?

Read this thread: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=3798

The Cantonese Yue, 粤, representing the unique Cantonese history and culture in Guangdong and Guangxi is different and separate from the Vietnamese Yue, 越, representing the historical Bai Yue, and the ancient kingdom of Yue of the Zhou dynastic period. People who believed the Cantonese 粤 can be the same as the Vietnamese 越 have not provide any real proof the two could be used interchangeably. They have to put forward evidence that the Cantonese 粤 is the same as the Vietnamese 越 which they have failed to do. Due to the lack of evidence Cantonese 粤 is not interchangeable with the Vietnamese 越. The Cantonese themselves have never used the Vietnamese 越 to represent the Cantonese. The Cantonese only used the Cantonese 粤 in association with Cantonese history and culture with out exception. The same is true for the Vietnamese who without exception only use the Vietnamese 越 in association with their own history and culture. The Vietnamese have never used the Cantonese 粤 in any association with themselves. The Cantonese 粤 has a rice radical which is significant in that it meant the Cantonese has a southern historical origin in the rice growing regions of the Han River, and the Mid Yangtze River, beside that of Guangdong and Guangxi rice growing regions. Equally compelling for the Vietnamese 越 is it has a northern Zhou Dynasty origin similar to the Zhao kingdom 趙. This is indicative that the Bai Yue 越 and Yue kingdom 越 of the Yangtze Delta have a northern Yellow River origin at some particular time.

I think the name given by Chinese is based on the name of war axe, 戉 (鉞).
Probably they made the character 鉞 since 戉 is used for pass, which later changed to 越.

IMO 粤越 meant the same people. Later 粤 means a place, not ethnicity anymore.
I think the use of 粤 is quite recent, probably the singular name given by PRC. I never head Cantonese themself call their language 粤語 or 粤話. They always use 廣東話 to refer to their language.

The war axe you referred to can be significant if it concerned a specific local or specific stylistic type in relation to the Bai Yue 越 and the Yue Kingdom 越. War axe in general is not significant because all different types of people all over the world through out time have axes. This is in the same way that the bow in general is not significant because all society through out time uses bows which diminishes the importance of the bow radical in Yi 夷 unless the radical refers to a special type of bow.


That is what I was referring to when I requested for real evidence for the interchangeability of 粤 with 越. The point being no concrete evidence has been presented as yet.


I need help with this one in that can someone confirm on the mainland they do use the 粤 in relation to Cantonese Guangdong and Guangxi because if I remember correctly this 粤 is what I have come across there. This is confusing because the mainland uses the simplify script. Is this Yue 粤 correct for grasy’s 粤語 or 粤話? How ever the confusion is with the Cantonese Opera 粵劇 or
粵劇
that I have come across in the Cantonese Opera site. Which is the correct Yue the enlarged version above or the mainland 粤 or
粤
that I have come across as in the usage for grasy’s 粤語 or 粤話?

These are significant because the term Cantonese Opera 粵劇 and grasy’s 粤語 or 粤話 are, contrarily to what grasy just wrote, in fact traditional or historical terms that have been past down in Cantonese culture.

I don't agree with you grasy. My family uses both 廣東話, and 粤語.

Even the Hong Kong Channel, TVB lists Cantonese as 粤語, and Mandarin as Putonghua.

I've heard many Cantonese use 粤語 instead.




Like what foldup_gryphon said, 粤 is probably a more classical way of saying Cantonese. I am pretty sure, a lot of Cantonese also use the term, 粤語, and I am guessing because many Cantonese overseas had been taught by their parents/grandparents, who may have been here during the three major migrations overseas.


粤 Simplified
粵 Traditional

Sorry I didn't know. I'm not Cantonese, but I often hear my Cantonese friends say 廣東話 never 粵語.

I think Mandarin as 'Putonghua' is not earlier than 1911.


In small size nothing looks different. I didn't even realize if I mistyped. (how could you look into small things?)
I got this: 粵 from Taiwanese input.
Mainland Chinese input:粤
SO:
•When is the first major migration of Cantonese overseas?
•Do they ever call Vietnamese_language 越語?

The Cantonese migrating pattern is a deep tradition. We inherited it from both our Han and Yue heritages. During the end of Tang, wars caused people to flee the north to the south. People from the far north could not really settle in the central parts of China because it was already densely populated by others, so they kept moving south (usually by boats following the rivers).

On the same token, the ancient Yue kept getting driven south from their original homelands in the north near Yangtze River.

This is the migrating traditions Cantonese people inherited. To survive, they had to be a 'tough' and 'intelligent' people. We took these traditions to many parts of the world to find a better life. Our forefathers thought if ancient Chinese can build the Great Wall, they could build railroads in America too. Most of the railroads you see in the western parts of America were built by Chinese hands and blood.

I know Cantonese Sei Yap people came to America and built railroad but when??

Late 1800s.

We never got thanked for it either.

Late 1800s Mandarin must have already influenced other Chinese much esp. large cities like Guang Zhou (it's already late Qing dynasty).

But I doubt Hong Kong was influenced that much (since it's under British control). I'm now in HK, and never heard anyone referring to 粵語?

They would not thank because the overseas Cantonese got paid.

Perhaps knowing that Cantonese themselves somehow knew they are related to the Vietnamese by blood or culture, so they deliberately change the Chinese word of Yue to differentiate. So there u have, 2 Yues of the same sounding but different meaning, however with the same origin. One comes after another.

The Vietnamese language is transcribes as 越語. However the differentiation between Vietnamese 越語 and Cantonese 粵語 is clear cut. The two terms are never mixed and never interchangeable.


It is certainly the case for Cantonese 粵語 coming after Vietnamese 越語. Vietnamese 越語 have a direct historical record that traced back to Bai Yue 百越 and the Yue Kingdom 越國 where as Cantonese 粵語 and Cantonese Opera 粵劇 only have a direct historical record that traced back to the Ming Dynasty. The very fact that Cantonese 粵語 and Cantonese Opera 粵劇 do not go back to Before Christian Era in the time of Bai Yue 百越 and the Yue Kingdom 越國 proved that ancient 越 for Vietnam could not have been used interchangeably with the later relatively recent 粵 for Cantonese. In addition by the time of the Ming Dynasty, Vietnam 越南 is a fully developed entity quite distinguished from the Cantonese 粵語 and Cantonese Opera 粵劇 of Guangdong and Guangxi which means during the time of the Ming the term 越 can not be used interchangeably with 粵.