I think kaixin has mistaken gravely. The Cantonese HuangChao killed might have been very well Han because they dwelled in cities. Remember that in any province of China, there are always Han and minorities existing concurrently. Han was more susceptible to draft and war atrocities so once their population decreased the minorities started to fill in.
Grasy, your Indonesian might be right. I've met some overseas Chinese Indonesian and I must say they look less Chinese than some Vietnamese. But I can detect their Chineseness by looking at their family members. Some of them look distinctly Chinese.
Actually looking Chinese or not depends on how you dress, your hairstyle, your skin tone...I may not look Chinese if I didn't grow beard and have crew cut hairstyle. But once I shaved my head they started saying I look Chinese...really funny. Some said Japanese because of my beard..., some said Korean because of my height (they stereotype Korean all short).

Hey Ahman,

May I ask where you live? You seem to live in a place with some very strange knowledge and stereotype. Before, you wondered if speaking Cantonese made HKese less capable of writing Chinese, which is a completely absurd theory, as all Chinese dialects (including Cantonese) use the same Chinese writing system. Now you say that people stereotype Koreans as short, when they are reputably some of the tallest among Asians. Where are you from, really?

According to the book "Ancient Sichuan and the Unification of China", the descendents of the Kaiming kings ruled Shu on behalf of Qin as marquises. The last Kaiming marquis, Wan, began his rule in 300 B.C. and had it ended thirteen years later due because of his rebellion against his Qin overlords. So it seems plausible that Shu Pan (King An Duong) may have been the last of the house of Kaiming.

Hi Mengtzu. I studied overseas before. I was surprised to see that HKgers' English was worse than Malaysian and Singaporian's English considering they had been English colony for so long. I was even more surprised to see that their Chinese (writing) was not very good either.
About Korean being short you should know that South Korean (DaeHan) mercenaries fighting in Vietnam war were very short even compared to Vietnamese. The common people in Vietnam still stereotype them as being short.
"Before, you wondered if speaking Cantonese made HKese less capable of writing Chinese, which is a completely absurd theory" I think you mistaken my statement. I said being taught in Cantonese made them less skillful in writing Chinese which might not be a cause-effect relationship but can be a co-relation.
I even doubt you know Hk Cantonese better than me based on what you just said although I've only met overseas HKgers. Maybe you are an exception. Ask HK Cantonese fellows around here if they are confident in their Chinese writing?

could be. The idea of building a citadel was probably new to Vietnamese and people around its border.

nguoiVietchanhtong: the genuine Vietnamese who said that

You're right. I think they didn't care what ethnicity of people they killed, so that the probability of killing Han was higher.

Some Vietnamese look Chinese even to "non-sensitive" like me. By the way don't count the half Chinese they don't look anything Chinese.

Maybe thats because they are more experienced and thus not affected too much by hair dress etc.


HK English is very lousy, worse than Singaporean. I can hardly understand except for those who learned in International school.
Even most people from PRC I met have bad handwriting (even worse than HKers I met). Much worse than mine.

In past ages, even Japanese were very short.
I've said this thing in different places many times: Japanese males average were shorter than Indonesian average during WW2, but now they are taller.

I think being taught in Chinese makes them bad writing, because they tend to write more fastly. I've also met one Chinese from Malaysian Chinese school, his writing is very bad. But the ones never taught Chinese is definitely worse, because they don't even know how to write.

I am not convinced that Vietnamese have much in common with the Yues that originated in China.

If Shu Pan came from China, then he was a conqueror or one who converted himself to Vietnamese in order to gain power. Similar to Zhao To. Being from China, they often modeled their kingdom after those in China. With Yue being the closest, they would have reason to identify the nation as Yue. Even though Vietnam may have been characterized as Yue politically, I doubt the people came from the same Yue people.

As far as the Yue elements of culture in Vietnamese traditions, these may have been introduced by the Northerner elites. The Vietnamese race were likely to be very primitive.

I disagree with AhMan that the Vietnamese look Khmer. Those in Northern Vietnam look more Chinese. Even those in Souther Vietnam look more Indonesian than Khmer. AhMan may be you come in contact more often with people from the western provinces close to Cambodia, where there are large number of ethnic Khmers. Southern Vietnam is a very diverse region and the features of the people are not as homegenous. You can find a particular group of people with a certain look to back up your personal bias such as "Vietnamese are like Cantonese" or "Vietnamese are
more Khmer".
Regardless, there is one vietnamese feature that can not be mistaken as of others, the high cheekbone.

The Shu were not Yue, nor were they Chinese. They were ethnically and culturally distinct, although the line of Kaiming kings claimed a mythical descent from Chu.

Legend has it that the progenitor of the Kaiming dynasty, Bieling, a man of Chu, perished and his corpse disappeared, floating implausibly upstream the Yangtze to Shu. Eventually, the corpse reached the city of Pi and returned to life, coming to face to face with the current rulers of Shu at that time, the Duyu dynasty. The Duyu king had problems controlling flooding at that time, and deputized Bieling to solve the problem. When Bieling succeeded, the Duyu king gave the country over to Bieling and departed. Apparently, this happened sometime around 666 B.C., and thus, the house of Kaiming came to power.

^By all accounts, the population in Guangdong dropped during Huang Chao's rebellion and subsequent fall of Tang Dynasty. It only picked up later during the Song era and that is also when geneology records became standard.

粵 Yuè (Việt) [ QT 粵 Yuè < MC wǝt < OC *wat | Pulleyblank : LM yat < EM wut, same as 越 Yuè (Việt) | Pt 王伐 | Starostin : Used also for the tribe name *wat (earlier written as 越).

http://www.vny2k.net/hannom/tunguyen.asp (search=粵)
Ghichú : Ngàyxưa chữ này dùnglẫnvới 越 Yuè, để chỉ tộc BáchViệt 百越 BăiYuè, ngàynay hậuduệ phânbố và sống rãirác khắp vùng HoaNam, ÐôngNamÁ, và cóthể đã dicư đến các vùng hảiđảo lâncận khác

(my translation->) Remember: In ancient ages this character was used mixed with 越, only for tribe 百越. Now its descendants distribute, live and spread entirely in South China, Southeast Asian regions and probably has dwelled in nearby islands.

However in Middle Chinese 粤 meant a name of place (粤: description in Sino-Vietnamese data of one of my books: đất Việt, region called 'Viet'). 越 meant pass. Thus in Middle Chinese those two terms were already not interchangable.


look at this picture

no need to be such xenophobic: no one but nguoiViet asserted that Vietnamese and Cantonese are related.
Anyway: do I pass as a Khmer or Vietnamese?

neither

u look sorta japanese

You look like Vietnamese and it's just that you are under the sun in the tropical areas, making your skin a little bit tan. Many Vietnamese, who live in the United States in the North, where it normally snows in the winter, have pale skins. How do you explain that. I am sure that there are more than 50%. How do you account for that?

Oh yeah, like I said, some of you may not agree that Vietnamese are related to Cantonese. That's fine with me b/c I know that you are not truly Cantonese or not unwillingly accept the historical facts.

u must be kidding. there is no way he looks like a Vietnamese or let alone a typical vietnamese. He looks Chinese no doubt abt that. Here is yr fellow countryman, the soldier. The man on the left is a Chinese. See the difference.

Here is the Chinese and Vietnamese politicians. See the difference.


Vietnamese kids showing their curiosity towards tourists.


A Hanoi worker in a steel mill.

So I'm almost positive that the politician on the right is Chinese.

Also the first pic I'm sure they are not Chinese!

First picture: left is Chinese, right is Indochinese
2nd picture: cant determine
3rd picturel:Chinese south minority with Indochinese.
4th picture: Indochinese.

Whom I call 'Indochinese' but not 'Chinese' are the ones that have slight 'Indonesian' feature(admixture).

Here are some photos or links to my own people (Toisan Cantonese):

http://chinatour.envy.nu/taishan/taishan.htm

http://www.legacy1.net/album_a/page1.htm

http://www.taishan.com/english/people/index.htm



Some of them look "Yue", but some undoubtedly look "Han" as well.

I see your picture looking ugly. Are you saying that Chinese look ugly? Please don't destroy Chinese figures. Chinese movie stars look great, just like Vietnamese movie star



All of them look like Yue the most because they are Yue. A few may look like North Chinese due to genetic mix. That is similar in Vietnam. Some Vietnamese look dark in the picture b/c they live in the tropical areas. More than 50% Vietnamese who live in USA where it snows normally in the winter, have lighter skin. Your picture won't justify the differentiation in the Yue blood

It seems that darker people always has the desire of wanting to appear white or keep telling others, hey i am white by birth, tanned by environment. Open secret.

With due respest, compare PM Vhan with our premier Li Peng. The facial topography is distinctly different. PM Vhan has sloping and angular face with slopped forehead, obviously jutting jaws and visible frontal teeth set. while Mr Li has a flattish face. Skin tone differs too. Also notice PM Vhan's eyes are set deeper. PM Vhan's face is shorter, same as his stature. Mr Li has a longer and wide face, squarish and meatier.

It's not all about dark and light.
Their face shapes should be different if you want to say they are different race.
I wouldn't say white-skinned Malay looks Chinese.

In general, about 60% IMO, the Chinese population have that look. Vietnamese about 50% IMO have that look too. Please come up with something better

^Honestly, I have never seen a Vietnamese look anything close to Li Peng. Maybe some occasional Chinese-Vietnamese. But, the pure 100% Vietnamese can readily be differentiated from any Chinese.

Don't quote from my post if you don't intend to say white-skinned Malays are Chinese.

Another Vietnamese Picture:
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b105/1234567_/newz3.gif

It seems that you've been posting mostly negative comments toward other non-Chinese Asians. In fact almost your posts are anti-Korean and anti-Vietnamese that it's quite laughable that you used all your time for just a silly purpose.

nguoiVietchanhtong: Cantonese and Vietnamese aren't related, just drop your subject. Seriously, nobody in Vietnam would go around and say "Yue Pride". Vietnamese fought hard to stay their identity, and claiming Cantonese, who are in my opinion essentially Chinese, is like saying Vietnamese are related to Chinese.

qrasy: The girl's picture you posted; she posted in the "Vietnamese people thread" in soompi.com forum, and here are people who also posted in that thread:

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/4420/dsc093521bv.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/iluvDBSK/3056.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/ilu...d6c769a2956.jpg

As you can see, Vietnamese people have a variety of looks, and posting one or two people's pictures, and tell that how are Viets supposed to look like isn't accurate at all.

Actually hihi, I can tell that your pictures and the other pictures have shared characteristics that differentiate from Chinese. Also, I do not think we are trying to be anti anything. We're just talking about straight differences in facial structure.

In the 2 pictures, Ahman looks sort of Chinese. Sorry only today can I view the images .

I could never understand if anyone say he looks like Japanese.

I something going on in here. The Yue Cantonese and the Yue Vietnamese are not essentially the same but eventually the same, and same thing with the Yue in Zhejiang. The academic people would view Yue as the same in most context but if it's viewed in geographical context, it's different. What don't you understand. Just like the branching out and the Yue eventually had the same root. The only difference is that the Cantonese have more mix with the Northernerners than the Vietnamese. Tell me for more than 1000 years, you think the population just stayed the same within its own areas or what.

I had discussed with many academic scholars and Asian history professors and they admit that it's the same. When I discuss with these people, they think it's different.

For instance, the Tai ethnic group and Thailand people, they are similar in terms sharing similar roots.

Cantonese are Chinese but non-ethnic Chinese. This is very official to the world and schools all around the globe.

NguoiVietchanhtong, I have avoided getting into this topic as I feel the discussion was less than academic. However I find that I must respond to your last statement.

On the assumption that English is not your first language please look up the definition of 'ethnicity' before you comment further as not only will you lose any support you might have had for your arguments you only serve to embarass yourself further.

Regardless of the genetic makeup or ancestory of Guangdongren (Cantonese), they are *irrefutably* ethnically Han Chinese as the Han ethnicity is regarded today. This the way they see themselves and the way the rest of us see them as well.

Oh yeah, I never admit that they are not. A person or a population can have different ethnic backgrounds. So tell me what's wrong with that. Since the ethnic Han is popular in history, it's ok for people to take a strong stand on that but they must also admit they are partly genetically the Yue. Same thing with the Vietnamese, almost every Vietnamese is genetically partly Han and also we like the Sanguozhi story and the Hans but sorry Vietnamese think that they owe a lot to the Yue ancestors. That's what Yue Nan means.
What you are arguing is just based on history, especially the political part. I admit that the Han army was very strong and brave.

The term Yue Cantonese and Yue Vietnamese are ethnically, politically, geographically different today but were once the same. There was no historical misunderstanding of the Yue, only until recently since the population of Cantonese had changed so dramatically.

So back off and admit it, no historical misunderstanding, but the Yue can be modernly misunderstanding since a lot recent changes

Yue in Zhejiang is in turn more related to Dong, Sui and Tai.

Northerners may be mixed more with Mongolian. The dominant O3 Y-gene is from South. Also don't forget long generation adaptation may change the genes that 2 different people become more similar (especially in appearance gene and immune genes e.g. immunoglobulin/HLA).

Didn't you read my posts?

LOL You never know that Cantonese are officially Chinese? Go to 'Chinese town' outside PRC and in almost every of them 100% are "Yue" based in your definition.

Vietnamese also mix with more Southern people.

Don't you know the history of the name "Viet Nam"? That's not it. It derived from a country that wished to name itself the same as a more-ancient country "Nam Viet" and eventually reversed to avoid political problems.

In the past the two characters were the same meaning, but nowadays not the same.
But that does not have to do with ethnicity since "Guangdong Yue" does not seem one.
Yeah it's not historical misunderstanding. It's the topic starter that misunderstood the history.
closing...

This is what you wrote



Admit what? You persist in embarassing yourself in front of people. I gave you a chance to correct your statement, you choose not to. You choose to have meanings to words only when they suit your purpose? You statement is patently false and yet you try to twist your way out of it? Its one thing to not be proficient in a language, no one in their right mind will hold that against you, but to persist even after folks are kind enough to point out reflects most badly on your character and lessen anything positive you might have to add to the conversation.

I have more than a handful of Vietnamese friends and they have been nothing less than polite and courteous behaving like 君子 gentlemen. I think they would be ashamed to know a fellow Vietnamese has acted as you have. If you have any sense of shame, I expect an apology forthcoming.

I am no language expert and I have never pretended to be one. Therefore people would forgive me for making spelling errors and grammatical mistakes. This is not the same for language expert as people would agree with me that I found it is astounding for someone in the profession as a language expert can write such half intelligible sentences. Then again it must be a ploy to expound an idea with out any evidential support. Please forgive me if I seemed rude in persisting for back up evidential support. You do agree with me I do provide evidential support in my arguments.

The Cantonese Yue 粵 has a totally different meaning to Viet Yue 越. So there is difference in usage and application. In the modern age there is no connection between the two characters. As to etymological development I challenge anyone to put up evidence for the two characters having shared meaning and association such as having been used interchangeably. As of yet no documentation such as references have been presented.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...dpost&p=4751210
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...dpost&p=4752328
Sure, in modern use it is not interchangable, like SKIRT and SHIRT. Originally the same.
Do it mean nowadays one refer "shirt" as "skirt" or vice versa? Of course not.

No need to repeat.

I have taken note of the documented sources you presented. They are websites addresses with pages written by people who hold similar opinion as your self. What is lacking are archaeological and historical evidence such as historical inscriptions or historical documentations that could prove your case. At the moment based on anthropological evidence of the immediate present and historical anthropological evidence of the last 800 years plus there are such substantial differences in culture and in language that the Cantonese Yue 粵 is totally separate from the Viet Yue 越.

I would like to concur that the two yues are indeed different. I always thought the yue as in Vietnam meant 'beyond' and simply refered to the fact that Vietnam was somewhere 'beyond' the south of China. The yue as in Cantonese actually means the ancient kingdom(s) which existed in modern day Guangdong. People are making far too much of the fact that they sound the same. You really have to go Guangxi to see Chinese related to Vietnamese.

I find it offensive some people try to say Cantonese are not ethnic Chinese. The people you see in Gaungdong today have come down from other parts of China for thousands of years. To suggest they are not Chinese is saying the same thing to every other Chinese which is ludicrous. Sure there would have been intermarriage with other peoples, but the same would have happened in all parts of China. The North got exposed to the various barbarians close to their region routinely. This, combined with climate and diet would explain many of the physical differences you see today. But they really are not significant. We are all Chinese.

In Vietnam, we were taught that the continuity of Nan-Yue, once were ruled Trieu Da (a Han)and his descendents (mixture of Yue and Han), that we should carry our political mission to levitate the Yue fame. It was the historical evidence that the Cantonese Yue and Viet Yue, proving it was in the same country. Phien Nguu (Pan Gu) was once the Vietnamese capital and it was written in the historical record. During the rules of Han dynasty, the Yue was the same. Until the Viet Yue got independence from the Han, the definition of Yue then began to split. IMO, the Cantonese Yue are closest to the Vietnamese the most, out of other Yue. Remember, Hunan was once in the Nan Yue territory.
A lot of people in this forum deny Cantonese Yue similar or close to Viet Yue due to several reasons.
1) The people who have traceable or untraceable ancestral root from the North.
2) The people who lean too much on one side of heritage, due to lack of knowledge in academics and cultural lives. They could be influenced from the people in 1)
3) The people who would like to have their relatives from the North to Guangdong for better living and refuge. They think if the Cantonese Yue are close to the Viet Yue, they think that they would lose their Chinese identity or that the Cantonese would lose their identity
4) The people who are communists and do not care too much heritage, except their political power.
5) The people who want to claim Cantonese Yue as Chinese because Guangdong is one of the greatest place to live in. Remember the tax money of Guangdong people make will be distributed around the North.
6) The people who think culture of Cantonese Yue are significant and deeply rooted in Chinese culture. They think if Cantonese Yue belong to Viet Yue, their Chinese culture is probably gone.

I know there are more but I don't have time to write a book about it. Look at the Texas as an example. Some Mexican people who have mixed with the White people still claim that they are American and do not care about Mexican root because Texas right now belongs to USA and USA is more popular than Mexico. If you think you are different from that case, let me know.

Having a brother is better having another enemy. It's up to you

The point of the Vietnamese seeking independence from China it is because of ethnic and language difference. This would entail a separation from Chinese identity which was exemplified in the 20th century with the expulsion of most of the Chinese community in Vietnam. China and many Chinese states helped out what they could but nationalities wise these ethnic Chinese were considered to be of a different nationality.

In history Vietnamese know they are not Cantonese and vise versa. As to historical roots one can compare demographics as in genes, language, and culture. Guangdong and Guangxi demographics in Nan Yue times were significantly Hakka, Taishan, Cantonese, and Qin. They are all of Sinitic culture and language. Look at Vietnam today and you do not find significant Hakka, Taishan, Cantonese, or Qin. What you find instead are Austro-Asiatic Mon gene, culture, and language. The Viet in Vietnam is a borrowed name when minority Chinese had rule the country. But with the majority Austro-Asiatic Mon having over thrown the minority Chinese in their pursuit of independence the Viet in Vietnam has become an anachronism. Only Viet of Vietnam is Chinese with the rest of the country being wholly Austro-Asiatic Mon.

In my research that I have shown in this forum, I often wonder whether the Hakka lost their identity as Yue because of the national administrative conflict with Vietnam through out successive different dynastic rule. As Chinese citizens the Hakka Yue have to drop the Yue because of imperial ruling against using the name Yue as this would cause conflict of national affiliation between China and Vietnam. It could be the Hakka wanting and having to demonstrate national affiliation and not wanting the stigma of rebellion against central authority dropped the use of Yue.

In conclusion the whole point of Vietnam independence is to separate from Guangdong. The Hakka may have lost the use of Yue because of not wanting to confuse their identity with the neighboring country of Vietnam. There is genuine difference between Cantonese Yue 粵 and Viet 越. There are differences between the historical Nan Yue Yue 越, Bai Yue Yue 越 and the modern day Vietnam Viet 越. Vietnam do not even use the Viet 越 to identify themselves only the Chinese use the Chinese Viet 越 to identify the Vietnamese. The Vietnamese use their French Romanization or local alphabet to identify themselves.

How is that a valid point ? In a previous post you stated the only ethnic Americans would be Native Americans (American Indians). Mexican's mixing with "White" people could only "claim" to be European by your logic no ?

If Cantonese do not believe they are really Vietnamese then Cantonese people are your enemy ?

Whatever Yue heritage that SOME Cantonese have is very overshadowed and minor compared to the Han heritage considering the significantly large massive Chinese migrations into Southern China. Besides the term Yue does not necessarily constitute one ethnicity (which in this case being Vietnamese) as the Yue tribes were very numerous. Either way, this argument is pointless. Everyone knows the Cantonese are Han Chinese.

Bah, you're NEVER SATISFIED until everyone is agree with you. You have sources to say the 2 Yues are not related?
WHAT ARE YOU THINKING OF "SHIRT" AND "SKIRT"? I AM QUITE SURPRISED THAT NO ONE CARES ABOUT THAT EXAMPLE. You can also make "Shirt is not the same as Skirt, etymological misunderstanding".
I guess I must find a historical map to show you. (at present I don't have)
http://www.tabiken.com/history/doc/C/C080C100.HTM
http://kr.dic.yahoo.com/search/enc/result.html?pk=11037400
http://blog.yam.com/walis0822/archives/95849.html
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/百粤


粵 1 广东省的别称：~语。2 指广西、广东两广地区：两~
[文字源流] 粵是会意字， 由亏和宷（读作shěn）会意。粵的本义是“亏也。審慎之词者”， 即发语助词“于“，表示审度慎重的意思。粵也常表示某种庄重、严肃的语气，用于句首。又为我国古代民族名，在南方沿海居住，称之为“百粵”，也写作越。古时的百粤之地在今广东、广西一带，因此称作“两粤”。现广东省别称为粵。
beyond/to pass through is not Việt, it's Vượt. Note that Chinese have lots of 假借
Of course CANTONESE ARE ETHNIC CANTONESE, but THAT DOES NOT PROVE THE 2 YUES ARE NOT RELATED.


In Nan Yue times? I don't even think Hakka existed there.
VIETNAMESE ARE NOT MON, IF THEY ARE THEN CHINESE ARE BURMESE. You never saw Burmese look? Look Sort of Cambodian. You'll not even find Mon in Vietnam, there are their cousins non-Vietnamese Mon-Khmer speakers but the number of each group is even less than Chinese and they are very different from Vietnamese.
Isn't it strange (in comparison to your theory) that Hokkien/Min, Tiochiu, Hakka are not referred to be Yue 粵 at all? Geographical term, changed meaning into a branch of Chinese as I have said.
BUT in past THEY DID USE CHINESE CHARACTERS, AS JAPANESE AND KOREAN DO.
I think the script was developed by Portuguese.

What do you think about how Cantonese and Mongolian look compared to Vietnamese? It's true that Yue are NOT one but more or less they're related.

There is a north-south division in China. People from Shanghai to me look more like a typical southern Chinese. Many Cantonese have resemblance with Filipinos. I know this cantonese guy who tries to claim ancestry from the North although he looks nothing like a northerner. Sounds like he really wants to fit in with the Beijingers.

I wouldn't say the Vietnamese and Cantonese are that related. The Vietnamese, a Southeast Asian people, have been mixed with different types of Chinese. However they look closer to Indonesians.

Unfortunately most of the bad stereotype of chinese people in America come from the Cantonese.
I may sound racist but I don't like what is called "Chinatown" that they created. It doesn't represent chinese culture very well.

Filipinos that means you never got the true Filipino. I guess many Korean look Filipino to you. White-skinned Malayic people still don't look Chinese to me.
What I think to be true Filipino: http://www.tropicalisland.de/MNL_Lake_Taal...%20filipino.jpg
Filipino who look more Japanese: http://www.mediacampaign.org/images/boy_filipino.jpg
Remember "Chinese" heritage is not the same as "Northern" heritage. I remember that O3/M122 Y-gene is from South.
If my idea is right, many Manchu and Kazakh also look nothing like "North people" in my mind (more like "Southerner")
You may have seen wrong Indonesians. These below are not true Indonesians.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/qrasy/LQH.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/qrasy/Z1.jpg
Of course there are higher probability to find bad Cantonese in America than finding bad Shanghainese/Hokkienese since majority of Chinese are Cantonese there.

good point. Cantonese have been in the U.S. for about 150 years. When did Northerners start coming in significant numbers? 10 years ago?



"Chinatown" was not 'created' by the Cantonese... it was imposed on them by the whites when Cantonese first came to the U.S. of course it doesn't represent Chinese culture. You're not racist, you're just ignorant of the history of Chinese in America and place the blame on the Cantonese.
If it weren't for the efforts of Cantonese, you might still be sitting in the back of the bus or using a bathroom marked for "yellow" only.

Tell me what they did so that did not represent Chinese culture very well. This statement is probably from the Northerners who think their Northern culture truly represent Chinese culture. You have to thank to the Cantonese and a few other non-Cantonese Southern Chinese for all the effort of formation of having Chinese food and language today that you see almost every where around the world. Be careful when you view on the Cantonese.

Thank you for speaking up for Cantonese. This is the only post that I would like to see from you. Thanks a lot.

Sorry, your several reasons about a lot of people in this forum deny Cantonese Yue similar or close to Viet Yue are invalid.
I as a Cantonese can tell you how Cantonese feel. Deep in our heart, we view ourselves as Chinese people.
The one and only reason is as simple as that.

It's good if you feel that you are Chinese. You also need to know the truth and I don't think admitting Cantonese close to Vietnamese does not make you any less Chinese. I think my reasons are valid because you cannot compel your hearts by your academic reasoning to let you know that the Cantonese Yue are related to Viet Yue

My satisfaction is derived from coming up with a perfect solution for an unknown knotty problem. If people agree and express the fact, that is an additional bonus. Related or not is a matter of degree. For this particular exercise I would focus on the difference rather than the similarity. There are break off points to certain differences at specific degree when I have to conclude they belong to different categories. For instance Vietnamese speak a different language from the Cantonese. As the two languages belong to different categories with the two people having different nationalities one could say Vietnamese belong to a different race from the Cantonese.


That is a bad example as I believe you have mixed up between one topic on the Hakka and another topic on the Vietnamese. The above quoted metaphor was used on an argument between the Hakka Yue and Cantonese Man. Now with you trying to apply it to the Vietnamese, you have confused the subject of Hakka Yue and Vietnamese Viet. This is an important point as it applies to the mix up between modern Vietnam territory with the ancient Nam Yue Territory. The territory of modern Vietnam does not coincide with that of the ancient Nam Yue Territory. The land of modern Vietnam was never a part of ancient Nam Yue land. This generally means the ancestors of Vietnam natives who have always lived where they and their descendants are now and having no record of migration out of the area would not have been subjects of the ancient kingdom of Nam Yue. Therefore the identifier Viet was imported across the border from Nam Yue into Vietnam by immigrants from the north and the identifier Viet was impose on the natives of Vietnam. The natives of Vietnam actually called themselves Au Luc or Au Lac.



Check maps provided on this forum if they are still available



The general rule is to use English when ever possible. This is a case of bad manners.


Under the Chinese law Cantonese 粵 are not ethnic minorities and does not qualify for ethnic minority status. On the other hand Vietnamese 越 in China under the Chinese law are ethnic minority and does qualify for ethnic minority status. In most cases I say the differences are greater than the similarities. It is the specific situation that make whether the differences or the similarities that matters.


The people existed but under a different name as in Bai Yue. It is the same for Vietnamese in that the people existed at the time but under a different name as in Au Luc or Au Lac.


Cantonese Yue 粵 in nearly all cases is specific to the Cantonese Yue 粵 language and culture. There are a few exceptions of cause.




Chinese officials when ruling Vietnam certainly used the Chinese script. Their Vietnamese ruling class client has to learn it as well. Once again I have to point out this is in Vietnam. I am not talking about the ancient kingdom of Nam Yue. Vietnam and the ancient kingdom of Nam Yue are two different separate places with a border between them.

It is definitely the French.


Cantonese are different from Vietnamese. There are differences between Cantonese 粵, Hakka Bai Yue 百越, and Viet 越 as in language, customs, etc.

Let me tell you this. The original Nan Yue also included the area what is today North Vietnam only. The history of Vietnam included Nan Yue as their Kingdom, Zhao Kingdom. Au Lac was the same place Nan-Yue kingdom that existed prior to the ruling of Zhao kingdom.

Out of other ethnic groups in China, Cantonese are related to Viet Yue the most and the next is Han Chinese.

I mean the Nan Yue that was made out of Lu Liang. The Qin divided Lu Liang into Nan Hai (Guangdong), Gui Lin, and Xiang (Gui Lin and Xiang being modern Guangxi). This was what Zhao Tou had. It did no include North Vietnam. It was the Han who added North Vietnam.

I think you need a long discussion with General Zhao before you talk to me.

Who taught you Chinese history?
Let's open a debate whether Nan Yue did or did not include North Vietnam. The Vietnamese historically accepted Zhao Tou as their own Yue King because he married with Au Lac princess My Chau. Zhao Tou's descendents had Nan Yue for more than a hundred years of history. Zhao Tou wanted to run his own separated kingdom as it said on his national stamp, Nam Đế Hành Tỉ (South Emperor Executive or authentication).