From one historical source, through out Zhao Tou’s reign of Nan Yue, Nan Yue did not include North Vietnam. Through out his reign Nan Yue was only Nan Hai (Guangdong), Gui Lin and Xiang (Guangxi). However after Zhao Tou died and his son became king, the new king Zhao To later conquered North Vietnam.

Through out Zhao Tou’s rule of Nan Yue, Nan Yue is Guangdong and Guangxi only. Au Lac is North Vietnam. Therefore through out Zhao Tou’s rule of Nan Yue, Nan Yue and Au Lac are two separate Kingdoms. During this time and long before, Au Lac people never called themselves Viet. The identify Viet is alien to Au Lac people. Viet was imposed on the Au Lac people by the conqueror Zhao To, Zhao Tou’s son.

Having cross check a number of sources, I learned Qin General Ming Tien and Qin General Chao To conquered Fukien, Kwantung, Kwangsi, and Tongking. Then Chao To’s father became governor of Kwantung and Kwangsi. He then became King of Kwantung and Kwangsi. After Chao To’s father died, Chao To became King. Then later, Chao To conquered North Vietnam (again?).

Well, those are example show that things are clearly different but the same root actually. Actually difference between Shirt and Skirt is not much different nowadays than 粵 and 越 (for dictionary).
Neither did early centuries of "historical Viet dynasty" include South Vietnam.


You don't understand what I meant? 粵 and 越 transliterates the same without Chinese Character, so English source will automatically assumes they are the same. They tell there was a population called 百粵 in Southeastern China.

Of course I didn't say Cantonese are ethnic minority.


So what? Clearly 粤 is not the same as 越, but 粤 had some shared meaning with 越 (for tribes only), but IN THAT AGE I believe THERE WERE NO CANTONESE.

Hakka=Bai Yue? It's even more ridiculous than Comparison of 2 Yues. What source do you get? www.hoklo.org and affiliates? Those are political sites try to say that all Southern Chinese, especially Hakka and Hoklo, are not Chinese, but Bai Yue descents. They focus on Hakka and Hoklo and not focus in Cantonese since they are majorities in Taiwan. Stop taking TI mr's stuff.

It's quite modern term. I believe that was not before Yuan dynasty.

Nam Viet is the predecessor of Nam Viet
French colonized the Vietnam, but the script maker is Portuguese. French never had an idea of 'nh'.

>From one historical source, through out Zhao Tous reign of Nan Yue, Nan Yue did not include North Vietnam. Through out his reign
>Nan Yue was only Nan Hai (Guangdong), Gui Lin and Xiang (Guangxi). However after Zhao Tou died and his son became king, the
>new king Zhao To later conquered North Vietnam.
Never heard Zhao Tou or Zhao To, I only know Zhao Tuo 赵佗 the Qin general.


>Through out Zhao Tou’s rule of Nan Yue, Nan Yue is Guangdong and Guangxi only. Au Lac is North Vietnam. Therefore through out
>Zhao Tou’s rule of Nan Yue, Nan Yue and Au Lac are two separate Kingdoms. During this time and long before, Au Lac people
>never called themselves Viet. The identify Viet is alien to Au Lac people. Viet was imposed on the Au Lac people by the conqueror
>Zhao To, Zhao Tou’s son.
I want to say that Au Lac was not in the same age as Nam Viet.

http://www.asian-nation.org/vietnam-history.shtml
Nam Viet did not exist before Zhao Tuo conquered "Au Lac". Perhaps his father was a governor, but that should neither be a vassal state nor separate country. Well, this site seems have something wrong with the Vietnamese language since Vietnamese are not descent of Khmer.

Yongky Utama 吳啟勇

At this juncture of the debate, I have to high light evaluation of author and reference source. I myself have put my real name to my more important essay summation on this forum. I have also provided book references and academic author references. All this is an important part of accountability and responsibility of material distributed. Such an accountability and responsibility system would curtail disinformation and deliberated lying and misleading the public. An author stand and fall on what they write. The political situation of oppressive government however allows cheats and con men hiding under the genuine honest writer umbrella to swindle in anonymity. Genuine honest writers trying to avoid government oppression by writing in anonymity are being used as a cover for cheats and con men. The reverse side to that is oppressive government is using righteous campaign against cheats and con men to also oppress righteous writers writing in anonymity to avoid the powerful governmental oppression.

After all that would contributors on this topic should occasionally provide their real name in their writing to demonstrate their sincerity. Their references should also contain more author names preferably academic instead of anonymous web site pages to demonstrate accountability and responsibility for genuine and honest point of view.

Wai-Sing Fung

Hi guys, I a newbie.
I found this site to have good info about The Hundred Yue in general, as the background for the research on the history of The Western You, which in turn touched on The Luo Yue, ancient people who lived in Northern Vietnam. This website was quoted at least once somewhere on this portal.

http://mcel.pacificu.edu/as/resources/zhuang/contents.html

Chinese scholars classify The Hundred Yue as belonging to three branches.
"1. The Nan Yue: distributed in today's central and northern Guangdong (and in the early period into Fujian, "Zhejiang, and southern Jiangsu.)
"2. The Xi Ou: distributed in the Guijiang and Xijiang regions of Guangxi.
"3. The Luo Yue: distributed in the southwest of Guangdong and adjoining southeast Guangxi and northern "Vietnam, where they are known as the Lac.
"...While we find the tripartite scheme the most functional, we are compelled to recognize that in some regards the archaeological record does sustain the simplified bipartite division. Artifacts characteristic of the first group, the northern Yue, would include geometric pottery, large stone shovels, and a bronze inventory which was basically Chu-style. Characteristic of the second group, the southern Yue, were bronzes close to southwest styles, the late use of a large inventory of stone tools, and a relative lack of stamped geometric pottery and large shovels.[53] The southern group begins in Vietnam and extends well up the coast into Guangdong."
I also read from a Vietnamese source that the SouthWestern part of GuangDong was occupied by the Li ethnic, the same ethnic that occupied Hainan. There was also mention from a Chinese writing at the time that The Li were Luo Yue (though I think that might be a mistake in identifying a foreign ethnic with whom there was not enough contact, and they were actually closer, if not synonymous with the Cham ethnic in Central Vietnam, who founded an independent nation which lasted for 1500 years, if they did not found a country earlier, named Xi-Du Yi).
Present Vietnamese also includes Southern Vietnamese, who are a mixture of Luo Yue, Li (Cham), Khmer (who migrated from Yunnan over 2000 years ago), Cantonese, Teochew (or Jiaochao?), and Fujian.
The charaters Yue are written differently, as in NanYue and Yuenan. One belongs to the Northern Yue branch, the other to the Southern one. One spoke a Tai-Kadai language, and the other speak an Austoasiatic one with heavy Tai-Kadai influence because of the neighboring Xi You ethnic speaking a Tai-Kadai language, which belongs to the Austronesian family of languages, which in turn belongs to the Austric family of languages, which also included the Austroasiatic family of language.
If think The Hundred Yue consisted of many admixtures of Australoid and Mongoloid phenotypes, and that was true also within the Southern branch of the group. Actually, not only The Hundred Yue, but also all ancient ethnics of East Asia, and South Asia were admixtures of these two phenotypes, with the exception of Harappan ethnic.
So, in short, the Cantonese, which generally are from North and Central GuangDong, and the Vietnamese of three regions of the country are similar in that they are all descendants of The Hundred Yue, but different, as there are many ("a hundred") ethnics within this racial group.

A side note about the peoples who lived in Vietnam: over 8000 years ago, people were Australoid, then 6000 years ago, they were a mixture of Australoid and Mongoloid, then 4000 years ago, they were predominantly Mongoloid.

So are the Chinese Mongoloid?
These Chinese think that Vietnamese are not similar with the South Chinese. The last sentence made a lot of sense when they should have understood that Nan-Yue included North Vietnam.
NguyenTrongCam, I have met your writing somewhere which made a lot sense. Give these people free lessons for me please.

They also think that Shen Nong (Than Nong) came from China and Vietnamese just copied over their source.

As I said all along, at this point in time and given the very long timeframe in both Chinese and Vietnamese histories, no one can truly determine how a 'pure' Han or a 'pure' Yue looked like.

For Cantonese history, it really only truly took form during the late Tang and early Song era. Most Cantonese still have 'zupu' (geneological and lineal book) and migration history. Many of our ancestors all claimed to have come to Guangdong during the Tang Dynasty through the route in Nanxiong. More came after the fall of Song and invasion of Mongols. Of course there must have been earlier people (Han, Yue and mixed) in the province who became absorbed, but we still stick to what our ancestors told us.

Hi there. I'm glad to see some posters who have been to Vietnam, or are still living there, in this forum, because one also needs to be there in addition to reading about it, in order to add insight to his/her opinions about it.
It isn't too strange for Vietnamese, be him/her of ethnic Chinese or Vietnamese, or partly this or partly that, to be here, because after all, Vietnam was part of China for a long time.
As to being Mongoloid, all East Asians from Siberia to Indonesia are, so certainly the Chinese are.
ChaoTo's NanYue was based on present GuangDong, and Au Lac (Ou Luo), the new name for Northern Vietnam at that time, was a vassal of NanYue.
I have read some informative posts in this forum: not a bad place to have meaningful debates or information exchange.
About ShenNong, opinions are all over the board. I know that Truong Thai Du (Zhang Tai-You), whose work in Vietnamese are available in various forums, think he was of ethnic Yue, which of course is a huge group of ethnics. He argues that the word order with the adjective falling after the noun is Viet, not Hua. But proto Hua language used that same order, so that is no proof. As to the age of agriculture, it is still debatable whether the Hua or the Yue had the oldest agriculture civilization. So I don't have an opinion on it, for lack of reliable information.
I think we will never find out about certain things of the deep past. Only things that we can dig up from the ground now, or present sciences such as genetics, linguistics, and comparative customs/folklores/cultural practices studies can help in putting out credible theories. Then, we still may disagree; but at least we will do so intelligently.

^Again, you Viet pride scholars are doing wishful thinking.

The Nan-Yue of Guangdong have changed identities through a slow and long process. To be honest, it is not even certain whether they remained to mix with incoming Han (during late Tang Dynasty) or they migrated to join their brethren in Vietnam.

You cannot make the assumption that Cantonese Han are their direct descendants without facts. The Cantonese speak a Han Chinese/Sino-Tibetan language, not a "Tai-Kadai" We have over 104 surnames, most of them traceable to 'zupu' (lineal books). Most of them trace their migration route through Nanxiong. Only Cantonese people know about this. It is a disservice for others to interpret our own history for us. Our ancestors were the first Han Chinese group to truly settle Guangdong in any meaningful numbers. The remnants of Nan-Yue simply either joined our ancestors or fled southwest.

OK, I am listening to this famous Vietnamese rap song and I truly cannot detect any similarities with Cantonese. Their tones sound stronger than Cantonese though. Maybe like 12+ tones:

http://www.soundclick.com/stations/stations.cfm?id=107110

OK, I am listening to this famous Vietnamese rap song and I truly cannot detect any similarities with Cantonese.

http://www.soundclick.com/stations/stations.cfm?id=107110

those rap songs are in the regular conversations, but they are the fantasy of sounds.

By th way I'm not done for this.
I didn't know where the Skirt-Shirt comparison was used anywhere in Hakka discussion.
Where the phrase "Hakka Bai Yue" is found outside this thread?
Also why did you claim 南越 as Cantonese' ancestry?

LOL Vietnamese only have 6 tones. In singing raps, words are quite heavily detonalised. So it isn't good at all for tonal languages.
I'm listening to some Vietnamese songs and found that those songs hear strange with those b g d and 'e' (of herb) sounds.

(well, in Cantonese this kind of 'e' is changed into (short) 'a', from my observation on some dialects' speakers and how HKers pronounce English).

Nguyen-Trong Cam, where have you heard that Li=Cham? Those 2 don't seem related.

Well, nobody is pure racially, and all CJKV are mix with Austrics. (well, compare with Siberian which are better Mongoloids).
Don't care about that (genotype), afterall we are all African descendants. Afterall phenotype is much more important than genotype.

Basically they think not the same. Those people you referred to were somehow emotional of the issue so that they further denied to be "similar".

"Than Nong" looks regular Sino-Vietnamese(which) of 神農.
But actually that's not a guarantee, look at the terms "Au Lac" and "Viet".
How about this: 神農 is one of 3 legendary leaders, do you know who the 2 other?
神農 has already been in Chinese legend since long ago. When did it first appear in Vietnamese?

Well, the Yue here are actually the same written, just reversed order.
What is Xi You? (Sioux hehe:D).
Afterall we are in the same cluster as Amerindian

'Tai-Kadai is included in Austronesian' and 'Austric superfamily' are not generally agreed.

How do you know how Australoid those people were? Dig up Bai Yue bones?

Tibetan use that order but I don't know if 'proto-Hua' also use that. Linguistic source?

kaixin, I don't pretend to know more about you than you do. Sorry to have given you that impression. Don't know about other Vietnamese nationals here, but I learn your history primarily for the purpose of knowing about ours, and secondly, to know about a great world's civilization, and one that heavily influences us.
Also, I am not a scholar. I think Zhang Tai-du probably is close to being a serious researcher on the field, though I disagree with him most of the time.
Indeed, there are what you called Viet pride scholars, and many of us fall for them. That is true with any society though. But Vietnam has been a vassal of China for almost ever, and it is not easy to erase an inherent sense of inferiority.
Of course Cantonese, as well as other dialects of China spoken by "ethnic-Han" Chinese, is Chinese, judging by grammar and vocabulary. But, as with other dialects of peoples living in former Yue territories, it retains many words of "foreign" origin. And this origin is common among these dialects. Actually Japanese have more of these, as the Yayoi domination over the Wa probably was not of the same proportion as similar occurences in China.
I was in a refugee camp in HongKong, and got to listen to Cantonese more often than I did in Vietnam. My impression is that some pronunciations of Chinese words are exactly as ours in Chinese loan words in Vietnamese, for example the words for "worker," "police," etc... I was told later by a Chinese Vietnamese that in fact, Chinese loan words in Vietnamese are pronounced more like Mandarin. Then also, somebody with knowledge of both languages said that they sounds more like Tang pronunciation (which makes sense, since Vietnam regained independence during the Tang Dynasty, and contact with Chinese native speakers ceased to be frequent since that time). Maybe it's a combination of all these.
grasy, just found out that you beat me in who can post faster.
The Cham used an Austronesien language, had frequent contact with Hainan, and fled to it en mass when their lands were overan by Vietnamese. They are called Li, together with Luo (there are three characters for this), and Ou, and Luo Li, together with maybe the SanMiao, the Lai Yi, ancestors of Koreans, constitute some, if not all, of the JiuLi. The real Li are the Chuang, and the Hainan are probably just Luo Li. This is according to a Vietnamese researcher pen-named Binh Nguyen Loc, who wrote The Malay Origin of the Vietnamese.
I don't have Chinese font (tried downloading several times, and still have trouble doing so), but the characters for Yue in NanYue is different from the one in YueNan, or MinYue, for that matter.
The Xi Ou, also called Ou Yue, are the ancestors of today's Chuang ethnic.
The more North you go, the less Australoid the admixtures are. And yes, if phenotype is more important, then digging up bones of Bai Yue is the only way.
"Proto Hua" is something I made up, for convenience. I take that back, to eliminate confusion. Sorry. The right term is proto-Zhou. Sofronov 1977:192-204 is the source (though I'm quoting, and haven't read it).

The Skirt-Shirt comparison has been used by yourself a number of times previously. I my self have been very consistent in arguing that Hakka are the decedents of the Yue Kingdom heritage. If you applied it to argue against me with it, it must have been against my exposition to Hakka Yue heritage. The Vietnamese are Austro-Asiatic and therefore the comparison does not work for between Sinitic Cantonese and the Vietnamese. The Vietnamese inherited the Yue heritage by means of a small minority Chinese emigrants who once long time ago manage to established themselves as leaders over an majority, none Chinese and none Yue, Austro-Asiatic Mon natives. I never before have claimed 南越 for the Cantonese. Instead I have consistently claimed it for the Hakka and recently for Taishan. However, I have never deny Cantonese heritage for 南越 as I believe proto Cantonese occupied the same area but as the subjects of the conquerors.

Oh have to re-edit, I have used Hakka Bai Yue as a main point of my argument. I believe have accumulated enough substantial facts and point for my thesis and have explained them in detail often enough to have now just use the conjugated phrasal label.

I really wanted to do a complete read up on the subject before answering Mr. Yongky Utama 吳啟勇. However as it would take too long a time in which he, readers, and myself would certainly loose track of the detail of the argument, I now have to give pieces of the research as I dug them up. So the following answers do not follow any order as they were asked and answers would not come in an orderly fashion in one long post as I would have liked.

To the last question is my first answer:
‘In the thirty-fourth year, officers of justice who had done wrong were sent to build the Great Wall or to Southern Yueh. The emperor gave a feast in Hsienyang Palace, and seventy learned men came and offered toasts.’
Records of the Historian, Szuma Chien, Translated by Yang Hsien-yi and Gladys Yang, page 176, The Commercial Press, Hong Kong Printing Works, 2D Finnie Street, Hong Kong, First Edition 1974, Hong Kong 1975.

The above quote referred to The First Emperor of Chin. The emperor died on the seventh month of the thirty-eighth year. This historical documentation would showed that immediately after the Qin conquered Lu Liang the Qin renamed it Nan Yue 南越. At this time Au Lac was an independent Kingdom under Phan Thuc. At this time there is a national border between Nan Yue and Au Lac. At this time the people of Au Lac are not call Viet 越.

After the First Emperor of Qin, the Second Emperor of Qin ruled then after ruling for some years he too died during the rebellion. During the rebellion the governor of Nan Yue made himself king of Nan Yue. He ruled for a time. When the first Nan Yue king died, his son, Chao To, became the second Nan Yue King. The second Nan Yue King then conquered Au Lac.

The Second Nan Yue King Chao To most likely conquered Au Lac after the start of the Han Dynasty.




Wai-Sing Fung 馮偉盛

According to Vietnamese version

Au Lac area included Hu Nan, Guangdong, Guangxi, Fujian, and North Vietnam, and some more

Trieu Da was at that time stationed somewhere in the North. There was no Nan Yue kingdom at that time.

Trieu Da married to Au Lac's princess My Chau
After Trieu Da took over Au Lac, the kingdom was named Nan Yue because his son was a half Han and half Yue.

Your timeframe story has some conflict with the Vietnamese version.

I have cross checked many other translations of Sima Qian. They all agreed it is Southern Yueh or Southern Yue as in Nan Yue 南越. After extensive field work with witnesses of the actual events and match up with the large collection of imperial library records, Sima Qian wrote his account a hundred years or so after the event. When was the Vietnamese version recorded and what field work or what library work were done?

As my answers are usually quite complete it is only polite to be equally helpful and write replies that are just as long. Short and uncoordinated replies are more of a distraction than a real answer when the available information is certainly more substantial than what was given out. Please provide reference sources.

See attached pic.

1: Nanyue, kingdom established by Zhao Tuo, as written in Shiji
2: same as above, but different choice of character since Eastern Han, probably to avoid confusion
3: Yue (Viet) Nan (Nam), Chinese characters for the state of Vietnam established by the last Nguyen dynasty
4: Minyue, as in the name of one of the kingdoms that went independent when Qin broke down
5: Minyue, as a collective short form of Fujian/Fujianese and Guangdong/Cantonese

Friend foldup_gryphon, I'm suprised that you expect an ultra-nationalist to give "equally helpful" replies.

----------------------------------

To topic: I have searched through the Twenty-Four History Books and the use of 粵 to describe the geographical region and/or the people started from Hanshu, which was written in the Eastern Han period. Sima Qian used 越 for that purpose and I suppose this was the way in Western Han or before. The character 粵, in pre-Han Chinese language, means "careful(ly)".

For those who know Chinese and classical Chinese:

A sentence in Shiji:

我南望三塗，北望嶽鄙，顧詹有河，粵詹雒、伊，毋遠天室．

A footnote written by later scholars) explains:

正義粵者，審慎之辭也．言審慎瞻雒、伊二水之陽，無遠離此為天室也．

Whether the Bai Yue spoke Austonesian languages is indeed an important question. And I see why Yun is impatient. So foldup_gryphon's reservation is understandable. But I applaud his willingness to present incomplete information. For that's all we're doing here: we are no experts, and even they engage in discussions before arriving at any theory, then they will peer review the theories, then debate them, then come up with even more theories. My point is: let's just debate, and not be afraid of what happens next. Otherwise, holding too much information without any interaction with our peer, so to speak, will not help us even manage that big heap of information.
I also heard that the Austric superfamily (if there is such a thing) split into two around 4000 years ago. This was around the time of the battle of Trac Loc (don't know the Mandarin spelling) where the Seven Li alliance was defeated. Could it be that this alliance is by peoples speaking an Austric language? Then they fled and split into the Luo's and the Ou's. Could these two groups spoke Austroasiatic and Austronesian languages, respectively? I know that Wenchou dialect is very different from that of Northern Jejiang, which could be because the former has influence from the ancient Dong Ou language, and the latter that from the ancient Gu Yue, for which the term Luo was used (this character Luo has the insect radical, as opposed to another one having the horse radical, used to indicate the GuangDong ethnic, and a third less known one indicating people in Shaanxi).
The term BaiYue came after the countries JiaShi (sp?), Yue (Th'uong), and Chu (in an area called Jing Yue or Jing Man) were founded. They covered East of the Han River, and South of the Yangxi River. This is where axes are found. They are of 2 types, one with shoulders, and one rectangular. The one with shoulders seems to associate with peoples identified by the term Luo, whereas the other with those by the term Ou.

This is the semi-mythic battle of Zhuolu, in which Huang Di defeated the Nine Li confederation led by Chi You.

From another book, here is further collaboration and elaborations in detail to the initial disclosure of the founding of Nan Yue 南越.
Records of the Grand Historian, By Sima Qian, Translated by Burton Watson, Qin Dynasty, Page 53, The Research Centre for Translation, The Chinese University of Hong Kong and Columbia University Press, A Renditions – Columbia University Press Book, 1993.

The Qin did immediately rename Luliang to Nan Yue 南越 right after their conquest of it.


The danger of being fed a small bit of information here and a small bit of information there is the error of weaving false information into factual ones and thereby passing on inaccurate histories.

The mishap of presenting a large dose of unconnected data could come about through exhaustion of reading a large number of books and pages of information from many multi media sources. This is a case of information overload and the write up or presentation could reflect such a sorry state.

I myself have come to a dead end with the Cantonese Yue 粵. This is because I thought the character did not exist before the 2nd millennium Christian Era.

Mr. Yongky Utama 吳啟勇, I have found fault in your conduct in that you dismissed my theories with out reading my theses. All you have to do is do a thorough search on this forum and you will find my various posts with substantial details on them. As you have not read my theses it is not proper conduct for you to dismiss them. As you apparently have not read my original theses where I am the first to propound them, you assigned their originalities to third parties as you have done here to the www.hoklo.org. I do not know them and yet you make out I get my theses from them. I am afraid you have plagiarized on their behalf because I am the originator of such theses. It was I who proposed the Hakka migrated South much earlier than from the Tang Dynasty onward as every one was advocating. I proposed they had migrated South Before the Christian Era. There are a number of Pro Taiwan Independent members on this forum but I do not belong with them. They most likely copy my ideas and pass them on for further rearrangement to suit their political aims and presented their rearranged versions with out proper referencing to myself. Such action belittled any idealism their political movement has as it only shows internal and external influences of selfish interest behaving immorally.

However, on wards further to the exposition of my original thesis on the Hakka Bai Yue 百越 relationship originating from the Kingdom of Yue then to Fujian then on to Guangdong and Guangxi.


Records of the Historian, Szuma Chien, Translated by Yang Hsien-yi and Gladys Yang, Kou-Chien, King of Yueh, Page 55, The Commercial Press, Hong Kong, 1975.

This historical documentation confirmed my earlier hypothesis of the correlation between the present Hakka population and the historical Bai Yue 百越. The many disunited Yueh princes and their many rules in the modern provinces along the Southeast Coast of China are the Bai Yue 百越.

(forgive me to repeat) to say Viet=Mon is to say Chinese=Burmese, to say in Vietnam there's full of Mon culture is to say that in China there's full of Burmese culture.

I found something in what "Jiao Zhi (Giao Chi)" meant. Actually it was much wider to North than North Vietnam.


Well, I repeated it many times in this thread (the reason is clear: no one responded), but you claimed that they are in Hakka discussion (definitely not this place.)
Well, do your arguments hold for Yang-Yue which speak Tai-Kadai, a distinct family of language? Also I've noticed that some of the Miao Zu and Yao Zu speak Sinitic language.


Yes, that's consistent with the 'original meaning of the character' I posted in post before.

Well, before Qin even did that the name 南越 was already used for some tribe else (need to copy from Cihai to show you).
Well, that seems you agree quite well with us. But 粵 was not 'inexistent with that era'. It was used for different purpose. (It does not point to "Cantonese"). From lobster's (and my) post it's clear that it existed in old age. But in fact 南越 sometimes written as 南粵, similar for 百粵.
Moderators may change the name of this thread now.

Well, that'll take considerable time. Just be patient if I still don't read them all.

No, It's can't be correct to say I've plagiarized. It's they that put their name on the theses, not me. (OK actually I unconciously "helped" them plagiarize)
Well, those TI sites do not even say that Hakka was from North. They say they are 'original' Southerner. Yeah, that may be a further edit by them.

Historical documents (I thought the only way was biological.)
But actually the above quote does not mention even one word of 'Hakka'.
So then You don't believe in Zupu at all? How can Cantonese rely on them then?
I found that 客家 was also a name of a tribe of 七闽 ( http://www.town-all.org.tw/93EBooks/inside...l21.asp?BID=227 This is a long article, I've not read it fully yet, and remember I don't claim that it's theirs), but that is not quite a guarantee that the name was not 're-dedicated' like 东夷 or 'different things with same name' 越 of Goujian and 越 of 百越 (well, probably this is not one example)

---Yongky Utama 吳啟勇---

The fifth example above can be Fujian+Guangdong, but can also be used to refer to number 4.

Yeah, I bother in most of the 'foreign words'. Beijing Mandarin (is said to) also have a lot of Manchu. Actually you can already mix languages without mixing genes at all.


Well, Mandarin 'wins' Cantonese only in part which contains 'ie' and 'a'. (Cantonese too {a->o}-ized)
If Hakka was not also heavily {a->o}-ized, then perhaps Hakka will win Mandarin (well, Hakka already get close enough by '-nh' '-ch' '-ie-')

Well, if only by language can I say Vietnamese is Mon? Or Chinese is Burmese?
OK. The Li I thought of was just a branch of BaiYue (俚). Sanmiao Jiuli is also too old to be in time with Ou and Luo. Also, I've never heard of Lai Yi or their relationship with Korean.

'Malay origin of Vietnamese' don't seem right actually. Austric (the existence doubted) or Austronesian<=>Malay? OK. So Chinese are Burmese rightaway.

YueNan are actually the reversing of NanYue. (refer to history of the name of Viet Nam)

Yue (to refer to ancient people) can be represented by using 2 ways, and the more commonly used way is by using 越.

Even it's true that you can't know the Genotype of Bai Yue without digging their bones.

OK. From a book so I must search for it. Can anyone provice example where adjective was put after head?

That's it, Zhuolu; and Nine Li, that is, of course.
PS: I realize that what I posted earlier constitutes a wild speculation, and I'm all open for a hopefully lively debate ̣̣(didn't do that deliberately, though).

Jiao Zhi is a concept, not a country or territory. Jiao means contact, and Zhi means point (of contact), I think. (Zhang Tai-Du has a good treatment on this issue available on Vietnamese-language fora, under Truong Thai-Du, the Vietnamese transliteration of Mandarin Zhang Tai-Du). That point of contact kept moving South. At one time, Zhi Chu meant Jiao Zhi (this is where credit is due to Zhang Tai-Du, I think), when Chu was the Southernmost country bordering the Hua territories. As Hua territories expanded South, the designation of Jiao Zhi signified ever farther South territories.
Then during the Han Dynasty, Jiao Zhi Bu (sp?) included GuangZhou, and Jiao Zhou (North Vietnam). Jiao Zhi "Quan" (sp?), together with JiuChan ̣(sp?) and Rinan constituted JiaoZhou.
This could easily be a separate threat.
About the different characters of Yue, there are four. The earliest one, the Shang Dynasty one, is one that pictures the axe, and still exist as the bottom part of the one with the grain radical. Then came the one with the grain radical, but it was used to indicate not Cantonese (for it was still unknown to the Hua at that time), but people in the Chu, Wu, and Yue statelets, then as peoples farther South was known, that character was switched to indicate the Cantonese, and the third one with the radical crossing/fleeing was initiated to indicate peoples that were indicated by the second character earlier. Today, probably to eliminate the politically incorrect radical fleeing, there came about a fourth one with the radical metal. Sorry I do not know Chinese, and do not have Chinese font, and it takes some guessing from your part to figure out what I'm talking about. And please bear with me, as some of these may be redundant to you, as I have no way of knowing exactly whether you have addressed them or not, not being able to read Chinese characters you guys quoted.
About Cantonese and Vietnamese, they are of 2 different admixtures of Yue, which to me is a Chinese appellation of these various admixtures of Australoid and Mongoloid phenotypes, which extend, as they were extended in the past, from Indonesia to Japan and Korea along the coast, as "beach combers." According to Jeffrey Barlow, whom I agree has a good treatment on these subjects about the Yue, Central and Northern GuangDong, Northern GuangXi, up to the Wu territory belonged to the Northern branch of the Bai Yue. The Southern branch included Central and SouthWestern GuangXi, Northern Vietnam (I think also Yunnan). So the answer is yes and no. Yes, the SouthWestern part of GuangDong, used to be called Hop Fu (sp?), and SouthEast GuangXi, and Northern Vietnam was territories held by the Luo Yue ethnic.

The San Han, according to an ancient Chinese writing, are descendants of the Lai Yi in ShanDong. They later migrated to Korea.
The term Malay that Binh Nguyen Loc used included all Yue's, Koreans, Japanese, and SouthEast Asians. He thinks there are two branches, one with more Mongoloid phenotypes, and one with none. I don't agree with him 100%, but found many of his researches useful.
These old proto-Zhou writings I think exist only on stone erections. Kind of tough for amateurs like us to provide examples for, unless Sofronov provided some in his work.

I still think some of you should focus on the historical events that took place in Guangdong during the late-Tang Dynasty onwards and not focus so much on stuff before that. There are population figures and censuses from the Song Dynasty showing how there were dramatic population decreases in Guangdong during Huang Chao's Rebellion and their armies activities south of the Yangtze. Over 200,000 were killed during that rebellion in Guangdong alone. The population only picked up after fall of Tang and in the late-middle part of Song era. It is more likely than not that the identity of Cantonese in post-Tang and Song were different compared to Cantonese in Qin/Han eras.

Just like modern Mexicans cannot truly claim to be full Aztecs or Mayans, nor can they claim to be full Spaniards. Although there might be some that are.

Place names mean nothing. In America, there are many states that are still named after extinct aboriginal Native American tribes (ie Michigan, Tennessee, Wisconsin, Idaho, Ohio, etc.). Only whites live in some of those states now. Very few true Native Americans.

Zhi means 'toe'. There is some short description of what the JiaoZhi included in the book 'Cihai'.
Well, I don't recognise some of the names. 'Rinan' seem such a strange thing. Viet Quận=郡 Jùn

The remnant of the earliest pictograph is: 戉 (axe)
First of all, the one with 'grain' 粤 is a heavy mutation. Originally it was from from 亏+宷.
That one with 走 (run) is 越 means 'pass', with the similar reading to the 'axe'.
One of the Chinese method of symbolizing new meaning was "loaned for sound", in protograph there are some Characters that are loaned without adding signify, while adding additional marks to mean the original thing.
e.g. 自-> nose, later loaned for 'self', then use 鼻 to mean 'nose'
So I think probably 戉 was then used for 'pass', while meaning of 'axe' was 'separated' from 戉 by making new Character 钺. But somehow then they made 越, but replacing all meanings of 戉. Well, 粤 also sound so similar that it's used as well to represent the tribe. (but somehow Chiense seemed to favour to use 越).
Yeah, and I saw some diagram that 'Austric' spread in China and around.
Is there anything special with dividing BaiYue into 2 parts?

By 'San Han', you mean Chen Han, Ma Han, Pin Han? I've never heard about Lai Yi. Anyone knows the Chinese characters?
Uh, so every Mongoloid with Australoid descent are called 'Malay' by Mr. Binh Nguyen Loc while most people prefer only calling those who are dissimilar enough to Mongolian.
Yeah, at least give some images and let me think about it. And one more problem for me is those old writing are hard enough to translate to Modern Chinese character.

I think the distinction is made through artifacts found in sites within the Yue old territories. But I guess, as with language differences, cultural differences also imply ethnic differences. People of the same language intermarry, and cultural differences is a negative factor in dating, even today.

I have posited the South China Mon Origin Theory. Please refer to the following:
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...5&#entry4759909
This is in which I describe the Austro-Asiatic Mon migrated from the Yangtze Delta, Fujian, Guangdong, Guangxi, Yunnan, North Vietnam, and Loas. These people migrated in a Southwest direction over time. This movement of the Austro-Asiatic Mon is applicable to the many current population of Austro-Asiatic Mon living in Vietnam. Many of their Mon ancestors migrated in a Southwest direction from South China. This Mon movement happened when the Sinitic Man and admixture Sinitic Shang and Yi migrated south. Not all Mon moved out of South China as some remained in South China still today. Not all historical Mon living in historical Vietnam and Laos moved out of these places and make room for new Mon arrivals. During these migrations admixture of different population groups certainly took place such as Sinitic Man 蠻 with Mon and admixture of Sinitic Shang and Yi with Mon. Also admixture of Sinitic Man 蠻 with Shang and Yi is a certain possibility.

Records of the Historian, Szuma Chien, Translated by Yang Hsien-yi and Gladys Yang, Chapter Sun Wu and Wu Chi, Page 33, The Commercial Press LTD., Hong Kong, 1975.

The 'san Miao' could be the Miao of the present day which could mean they had moved from the Mid-Yangtze to Laos and Vietnam. This movement is a Southwest migration like that I ascribed to the Mon. Like the Mon not all Miao moved out of South China as many Miao remained in South China today in Hunan, Guizhou, Guangxi, and Yunnan. The Miao belong to the Sino-Tibetan family the same language that I ascribed to the Man 蠻 which is also from the Mid-Yangtze.

I agree with you. Discussing things that occurred long ago is only relevant to today's genetic realities only in so far as the ancient phenotypes are still predominant. Nobody can guarantee that's the case.
Before Vietnam regained independence after The Tang Dynasty, I assume that migration from Hua Xia territories have made GuangDong and Annan a bit Sinicised, with GuangDong more so because of its proximity, and more forgiving whether. I guess you know more about migrations to GuangDong after that date, and that GuangDong became even more Sinicised. I even read somewhere that there were three waves of migration to the South, with stated numbers of people. So historical records actually can quantify this trend, assuming that we also have accurate Southern head counts to figure out the mix (this is where the figures get compromising).
Today, thankfully, we have genetics. So forget about the past, and what happened, for records may be incomplete. Let's fast forward to the present. Assuming that genetic marker M174 signifies Mongoloid and Hua, and Xia, Qin, and Zhou seem to be close to the North Central area and therefore to this marker than to M122, which is carried by people of rice civilizations of the Bai Yue and DongYi. I suggest that if we personally are curious, we can spend 100 US$ to have The Genographic Project find out for us. Some of us may not be so curious, not unlike how we feel about finding our IQ's. Then we can go on using other methods, such as the ones we have been using in this forum, generally.

This is somewhat related to the thread "vietnamese are lost han chinese?".

Let me put up some of the stuff I have read. The 百 越 people were not just one tribe but the many , many tribes south of the han chinese which includes the natives of fujien, gwangdong, vietnam.

The 越 does not represent the vietnamese tribe, they call themselves 京. The country's name of 越 南 was coined by the chinese to mean the southernmost province/area.

Do not know if this is relevant but I just read through Sima Qian's Accounts of the Southern Yue 南越 translated by Burton Watson and I found the chapter does not have any record of Zhao Tuo or Chao To conquering/annexing/inheriting/taking over any part of Vietnam. In fact the chapter does not have any indication of Vietnam. No records of any clues about Vietnam such as direction, under a different name by which Vietnam could be guess at. The chapter has no record of Vietnam being a part of Southern Yue 南越. My conclusion right now is there is no historical record of North Vietnam being a part of Southern Yue 南越. I believe there is historical records of Vietnam being part of Han but no historical record of Vietnam being part of Southern Yue 南越. As far as I know we only have the word of posters of this forum that North Vietnam was part of Nan Yue 南越. Another important point they did not give any reference to support their exposition that North Vietnam was part of Nan Yue 南越. Now it is vitally important that they provide some credible academic reference that would indicate North Vietnam was ever a part of Nan Yue 南越.

North Vietnam as being part of Nan Yue 南越 is a myth and not a historical fact!

http://countrystudies.us/vietnam/3.htm

"The last Hung king was overthrown in the third century B.C. by An Duong Vuong, the ruler of the neighboring upland kingdom of Thuc. An Duong Vuong united Van Lang with Thuc to form Au Lac, building his capital and citadel at Co Loa, thirty-five kilometers north of present-day Hanoi. An Duong's kingdom was short-lived, however, being conquered in 208 B.C. by the army of the Chinese Qin dynasty (221-207 B.C.) military commander Trieu Da (Zhao Tuo in Chinese). Reluctant to accept the rule of the Qin dynasty's successor, the new Han dynasty (206 B.C.-A.D. 220), Trieu Da combined the territories under his control in southern China and northern Vietnam and established the kingdom of Nam Viet (Nan Yue in Chinese), meaning Southern Viet. Viet (Yue) was the term applied by the Chinese to the various peoples on the southern fringes of the Han empire, including the people of the Red River Delta. Trieu Da divided his kingdom of Nam Viet into nine military districts; the southern three (Giao Chi, Cuu Chan, and Nhat Nam) included the northern part of present-day Vietnam. The Lac lords continued to rule in the Red River Delta, but as vassals of Nam Viet."

Read that and learn. Trieu Da, who probably already occupied North and Central Guangdong and Fujain, was a Chinese Commander and took Au Lac, where it covered Southwest Guangdong, Guangxi, and North present Vietnam. Then later he declared his own Kingdom as Nan Yue. There was a national stamp which had the words "Nam De Hanh Ti."
Erase all the other ideas of others tried to give you. If you want to go beyond the historical facts, let me know and I am ready

Before vietnam got its present name, it was called 安南 (annam). Before it got annam, it may have had a different name too.

NguyenTrongCam,

There were actually 5 waves. The Cantonese ancestors came down through Nanxiong and probably the Hakkas were a little to the east (between Fujian/Jiangxi borders).

I sincerely believe that the Japanese have a lot of Yue in them. They have very thin body structure which is not common for Asian people living in cold climates. They were probably Yue who fled south China due to Han expansion. Of course, they mixed with Koreans too. A lot of Koreans must have this same Yue strain, but Koreans got a little more Manchu influences via Puyo invasions.

I think that it would be way too presumptious to equate the two terms Buyeo and Manchu.

1.) Buyeo's an ancient term. We have no clue who they're related to.

2.) Manchu's a relatively recent term that included more ethnicities than just the Jurchen tribes IIRC.

The credit for the information in the site does contain academic credibility. However it is true to say the endeavor was political foreign policy driven by the Department of State and the Army. Politics is a bias affair and never even handed. I myself am an independent researcher. The site is not an independent none governmental organization but it is a political governmental department dictated by US President Bush foreign policy.

Now I challenge these eminent academics to produce archaeological evidence such as inscription or historical documentation to support the postulated of Vietnam was ever a part of Nan Yue 南越.

What was left of the Nan Yue so we could bring it up to you. If you need physical evidence, then you have to know Trieu Da descendents whose tomb was found recently, by using carbon dating and DNA of Trieu Da descendents. Trieu Da had his son, Trong Thuy, whose descendents mixed with the indigenous Yue. Tell me the evidence to convince you and maybe I will bring it up.

Remember the whole nation of Vietnam claimed Trieu Da and his descendents as the King of Vietnam in history. Sometimes, it's not that easy to hire a researcher like that, especially in Communist countries. They don't really care for that matter but just only Communist histories. Tell me how much you know about Trieu Da.

The name of An Nam for Vietnam was before the name of Vietnam. Those people or with the King tried their best for the continuity of Nan Yue kingdom because they believed that they was there for.

Remember, the ancient name of Vietnam was Van Lang and Au Lac to indicate the national identity at that time while they knew that they were all sourrounded by the Bai Yue people.

The Japanese were not the Yue but they were influenced by the Yue culture. The Southern Yue made up the main population of Vietnamese today although they may differ in the appearance due to genetic mix with the Chinese.

Not all Southern Yue are Vietnamese but most or many Vietnamese were from Southern Yue. The topic has ended.

Yeah, I've heard that there were 2 kinds of axe, one kind is found in the Pacific Ocean and around, while one is found inland the Indochinese peninsula. So one can easily claim that one is Austroasiatic and one is Austronesian


Yeah, I'll take time to read after this.
Alright "Pyu people could have under gone the same process as the Bai (Pai)/Yi people. They were all Austro-Asiatic speakers but because of influences from their neighbors have subsequently become Tibeto-Burman." so <Vietnamese was influenced by Mon and began to speak Austroasiatic.>

Austroasiatic is not same as Mon and cannot be encompassed by Mon. Same as saying bird=eagle or Burmese=Chinese. Also Mon is a very modern term.
>By the way people usually also have wider 'Malay' so my reason is not very strong here.
But it bugs many people the same as common reaction to Mr. Binh Nguyen Loc considering Korean and Japanese as 'Malay'.
Also many claim that Shang was part of DongYi and actually was Austronesian. Another claim (that you may consider as stupid) is Man<=>Mon.

Miao-Yao is usually considered as separate family. And most of their vocab are not similar to Chinese.
Also some claim that there exist such strange theory 'Miao-Austroasiatic' superfamily of 'Austric' which contains Austronesian Tai-Kadai and Miao-Austroasiatic.
The reason you claim Miao are Sino-Tibetan actually the same as reason why xng say Vietnamese was not from Austroasiatic or "Mon" (your new term).

How can you see which county was actually inside 'Vietnam' if in that time it was called in a very different term? How if Zhao Tuo already had North Vietnam when the kingdom starts? OK. Honestly I've not read the history but Zhao Tuo/Trieu Da was the founder of Nan Yue kingdom.

That is your opinion. I can also claim Huang Di won a war against Chi You a myth.

My translation of a part of long entry of "JiaoZhi" in Cihai

交趾 (I took entry no.3)
(#3) name of a 郡. In 2nd century, Zhao Tuo of Nan Yue founded it, and in 111BC was taken by Han. The region is equivalent to today's Northern Vietnam. In Western Han, governed Ying Lou (now Ha Noi's Northeastern), in Eastern Han moved to Long Bian (now Ha Noi east, Tiande (Thien Duc?) river's North coast). After that the governed region shrank, only around Red River delta. Deformed. Sui/Chen destroyed(?). In early DaYe大业 years onve Jiao Zhou was renamed into Jiao Zhi 郡.

Chinese one:
交趾
(3)郡名。公元前2世纪初、南越赵佗置。 公元前111年归汉。辖境相当今越南北部。西汉治羸[阝婁](今河内西北)，东汉移治龙编（今河内东天德江北岸）。后辖境逐渐缩小，限于红河三角洲一带。隋平陈废。大业初又曾改交州为交趾郡。

（well, about the character 阝+婁 I'm not so sure maybe I just saw wrongly and just 婁)