Yes, there was a strong historical connection. They were also genetically mixed with the Hans. Pretty much they were the same and now they are similar. The Southern Yue people of China did not want to split from China. Only the Vietnam was split b/c the strong sentiment of Yue ethnicity was strong and popular.

Your explanation looks very persuasive but it did not match with historical context.

When Nam Yue was established, at that time, 越 was the same as 粵. 粵 was for the farming Yue when they were in peaceful or no-war time, by looking the original characters of 粵, you could imagine a person small rice plant inside that character. 越 was popular for the Yue in ZheJiang b/c they were constantly in war to defend themselves from the enemies. Analyzing the 越 , you could see the axe is part of that character.
IMO, 越 was used in Vietnam b/c most of political figures at that time came from Yue in ZheJiang and Fujian. Genetically, 越 and 粵 are the same. Right now every body claims to be Hans over there, no need to persuade southern Chinese to be the Yue.

Grasy: But I doubt Hong Kong was influenced that much (since it's under British control). I'm now in HK, and never heard anyone referring to 粵語?
First off I have to point out both the terms Cantonese 粵語 and Cantonese Opera 粵劇 are in popular usage in the mass media of Guangdong and Guangxi. Because of this I did not have to do any literary search in the discourse of these two terms. What I have written are totally based on common understanding of every day going on. As to why Grasy have not come into such a common usage of Cantonese 粵語 and Cantonese Opera 粵劇 could be the population of Hong Kong Island and Kowloon Peninsular are composed mainly of expatriates from the UK, USA, and people of the British Commonwealth who naturally are not particularly conversant with Cantonese 粵語 and Cantonese Opera 粵劇 usage. This also is true for the Chinese population who are from other parts of China and Asia other than Guangdong and Guangxi who naturally would not be conversant with these two terms and who also made up the population of Hong Kong Island and Kowloon Peninsular. However as yehzhaofeng has pointed out Cantonese 粵語 and Cantonese Opera 粵劇 are common parlance of the HK media industry.



I am sure Vietnamese culture does harbor all sorts of little known historical treasures and a few of these are totally unknown to the outside world. The Farming Yue 粵 of Vietnamese past at the time of Nam Yue 南越 Before Christian Era that you have described certainly belonged to the category ‘little known’ and even ‘unknown’ to the outside world. As such the onerous is on you to provide the necessary documentation proof The Farming Yue 粵 of Nam Yue does exist or has existed. I do question the integrity of the sudden emergency of the Farming Yue 粵 as real historical actors at the time of Nam Yue 南越 as this is seen as a ploy to shore up a flagging argument.

The Yue Opera has nothing to do with Vietnamese, except the term Yue seems to be popular around that area when it was once in Bai Yue area. When Nan Yue was a country, Guangdong, Guangxi, and Vietnam were in the same country. Guangdong and Guangxi had more peaceful time in farming so the term 粵 was popular to them.

I wasn't really sure if you agreed with me or not.

粵 1 广东省的别称：~语。2 指广西、广东两广地区：两~
[文字源流] 粵是会意字， 由亏和宷（读作shěn）会意。粵的本义是“亏也。審慎之词者”， 即发语助词“于“，表示审度慎重的意思。粵也常表示某种庄重、严肃的语气，用于句首。又为我国古代民族名，在南方沿海居住，称之为“百粵”，也写作越。古时的百粤之地在今广东、广西一带，因此称作“两粤”。现广东省别称为粵。


However, I did not intend to mean the written thing the but speech. If you use 粵語 in speaking you will not use 越語, both are of the same pronunciation and type (both are nouns referring to language) but not same meaning, and using both is just making confusion.
I think 粵 had been fallen into common use, but after that re-used to represent GuangNan part of China. By the way 越劇 refers to the opera of Zhejiang. 百越 is interchangable with 百粵, but 越國 is not with 粵國, showing that 粵 may be a later convention.

thanks Yun.

^ngoivietchantong, They did not split because by the end of Tang and beginning of Song era, the ethnic composition in Guangdong began to shift. The mixing was complete by that time. The Huang Chao massacre had decimated a large portion of the native Yue. Thus, when northern Han (or Tang) migrants poured in, there was fewer resistance by the remaining Yue. They mixed to form the current Cantonese race.
We became "Tang" and are no longer Yue.

Honestly, even Cantonese and Vietnamese foods differ from one another. Vietnamese like to put peanuts on top of their rice. They also eat a lot of raw basil and spearmint with their foods. Cantonese don't eat like this.

We can differentiate the Vietnamese and Cambodians "physically" when we see them in Chinatown. Just like we can differentiate northern Chinese too.

The similarities you see in Vietnamese culture with Chinese is because the Cantonese and Fukienese immigrants brought these traditions over there (along with 1,000 year of Chinese rule).

I think Vietnamese should abandon claims to Guangdong and accept the fact that we are already a mixed race and culture. We are no longer YUE.

I don't think the Cantonese ever widely use the "Yue" term until modern times.

Cantonese opera in the past was always referred to as "dai hei" (big plays).

And, we always referred to ourselves as "Tang." Even our language. (Tong-wa).

I think only the Cantonese in Hong Kong use that term "Yue."

kaixin, are you vietnamese?

i hear people saying cantonese and vietnamese sound similar. do they? so the cantonese are descendants of the yue?

Neither do I, but look at this Los Angel:


You mean 大戲?
唐話? I've heard that "唐山" refers to China.
I think only Cantonese of PRC use that:

It's up to deny or accept Yue. Oh yeah, please don't say the word "we" b/c not every cantonese agree with you on that part. Just say that it's your opinion. There are many things to differentiate things even among the Cantonese or Hong Kong people, which does not change to the historical fact that Vietnamese are similar to Cantonese. Please read the history first. I never want to claim Cantonese are part or the same of Vietnamese. It was just the political and regional concept to differentiate each other. I honestly accept Guangdong is a genetically mixed and also accept Vietnamese not much from the Cantonese b/c Vietnamese were genetically mixed too.

kaixin is Cantonese not Vietnamese.
Cantonese Vietnamese Thai etc. sound similar because of the tonal system.
All South Chinese should be descent of Yue.


Genotype and haplotype are not important compared to phenotype, since we had lots of criss-crossing between races and the common ancestor was African.

How about this?:

Interesting. I think nationalists on both sides wants to retain the Yue connection, but for different reasons.

China: Vietnam is descended from Yue and Yue is chinese. The Vietnamese came from Chinese and therefore Vietnam really should belong to China

Vietnam: Vietnam is descended from Yue who is separate from Chinese. China is occupying Yue ancestral lands and the nation of Vietnam should be larger than its present form.

if the vietnamese were never part of the yue people to begin with, why do a great majority of them look like southern chinese?? i do see a big difference between the viet and thai language. i would like to hear how cantonese sound like though.. my theory is that most of the modern day viets are actually descendants of yue but migrated to northern vietnam and assimilated into the native culture there...

the viets just look too different from other mon-khmer speaking groups.

If you can distinguish Thai, Viet and Cantonese by ear, then it means you can understand (not need to be 100%) at least one of the languages (I guess you are a Thai).

And: Aren't Thai and Lao people look similar to Viet?

Vietnam is not from China. Read the history of Sanguozhi. Vietnam was under Shu dynasty and Shu dynasty was not from Han dynasty. In the past, the story of three kingdom did not mean that there was one kingdom and then they the split from that kingdom. You go to China and say Yue is Chinese. They will probably stone you to death. Chinese people never claim Yue to be their great historical heritage, but just a bunch of tribes and savages. If they respected the Yue in the past, we would be in the same country now. That strong sentiment of the Yue came from the Yue in Zhejiang and Guangdong, up to point to attract the political figures to go rebel against the cruelty of the Chinese.

Don't forget Cantonese truly established their identity during Ming dynasty and the Northern (from Anhui, SuZhe, Jiangxi, Hunan...etc) people started mass migration to Canton during Ming/Qing dynasties. Actually Vietnamese started a separate development from supposedly their "Yue" relative across the border during Tang dynasty. People from GuangDong, Guangxi started adopting Han culture and intensifying the sincinization during this time. But they were still ethnically aboriginal Yue. People from 2 Guang were further assimilated into China during Song, particularly Southern Song dynasty. But the term Cantonese only appeared as late as 15 century where there was distinguishment between Han Cantonese and Zhuang/Miao Cantonese.

So you mean the term Cantonese was politically created by Ming dynasty. So what? Of course this 粵 is only regionally different from this 越, but genetically they are the same and could be academically interchangable. I don't see anything wrong with it.

nguoiViet you should do a bit more travel in China. Who said that Yue are not proud of Yue culture. Liangzhu culture is already acknowledged in common Chinese and is promoted in ZheJiang area (mentioned in plays, wearing traditional primitive Yue clothes in shows...etc). The only thing is whether Vietnamese are the same Yue that people in JiangSu/Zhejiang are? They are so different.
It does not matter whether you see a few Chinese having Vietnamese look or Vietnamese having Chinese look. The subconscious ideas about their identities are very conspicuous. Don't you often hear Vietnamese complain: my daughter has slit eyes, look like a Chinese...or in my case (shaved head): you look very Chinese to me...

Nope, it's not a complaint but just a regular comment how people look. Maybe you have been with a lot eye prejudice people, not on my case. People normally ask that I look like Chinese b/c of my Chinese eyes and I said no, b/c I am nguoi Bac 100% more than 6 generations, so far I could trace.

nguoiVietchanhtong don't use terms like "chinky". It's derragatory. I've edited your post for you.

-GJ

Where did you get that idea? Vietnam (actually only north Vietnam) was under the Wu, and after the fall of Shu-Han it was conquered by the Jin. Besides, Shu-Han was founded by a Han warlord who claimed to be descended from the Han imperial clan, so what makes you say it was "not from Han dynasty"?

^Please show a site or source saying that they are genetically related?

I did not say Vietnam is from China. I merely stated the position of some who claims that the link between China and Vietnam goes back much further than the Han dynasty. If there was such a link, then the Han dynasty had a legitimate claim to Vietnam and the invasion of Vietnam was not a foreign invasion but rather an integration into the empire of one of its people. If so Vietnam was never "occupied", it was simply ruled by China and then later broke off.

I am not going into the details about cultural or lingusitic similarity betwen Yue and Vietnamese because I am not an expert on Yue. If you are a Vietnamese who look like a Cantonese and you feel that these people are alike because of this resemblance, that is good for you. I just won't accept it as scientific.

Dude, where are you getting this info from? Like Yun mentioned, Shu was referred to as "Shu-Han" because the guy that founded Shu-Han claimed descent from the Han royal house and sought to restore the glory of the Han.
Moreover, when you said "the story of three kingdom did not mean that there was one kingdom and then they split from that kingdom" you are not entirely wrong but you are far from right. There was one empire (Han dynasty and the three kingdoms (Wei, Wu, Shu) were formed when the empire collapsed.
I'm sure you've never been to China before. Do you think people in China will stone you to death for saying Yue is Chinese? You'd probably hear a long discussion about how Yue is Chinese depending on the region that you're in.

In overseas communities where there are alot of pre-PRC immigrants, the term 唐 equals "chinese" or "cantonese" so 唐話 is a totally acceptable term here in the states. Another term is " 唐餐 for "cantonese cuisine"

With regards to 粵 - HKers will probably never use this term in conversation but sometimes in magazines, newspapers, and TV shows, 粵 is used to refer to Guangdong province.

粤語 is a real formal name for Cantonese. I've never used it myself and I am surprised that yehzhaofeng's family would use this term in their regular conversational exchanges. This is not to say that HK ppl do not know this term. I know this term and if you look at scholarly articles or something from HK academia that refers to Cantonese, I'd contend that 粤語 is used more often than the very informal misnomer, 廣東話 (ppl in guangzhou use 廣州話 or 白話 to describe Cantonese) If you watch TV and you have nicam, look at some program schedules for some korean dramas, it will say something like 粵、韓語麗音廣播 or look on the back of a DVD movie dubbed in multiple languages 粵 is used to designate Cantonese.

Actually he may have gotten the kingdoms as well as the periods mixed up

Vietnam was indeed under Wu kingdom during the Three Kingdoms period. If he really meant Wu instead of Shu, then his statement about Vietnam not being ruled by Han make sense. If I am not mistaken, the Sun family of Wu descended from Sun Tzu and did not claim lineage from the Han royal house. Therefore Wu can be considered distinct from Han.

In addition, nguoiVietChangTong may have confused the Wu of that period with the Wu of the Warring States period. During the Warring States period, there was not just one kingdom but rather there were many kingdoms, Wu and Yue being among them. The original Wu state did not have any relation to the Han either. If my memory serves me right, Wu I was conquered by Yue. I can't comfirm whether the Wu and Yue kingdoms have anything to do with the Yue people that we are talking about here.
Maybe Yun can shed some light on this.

According to China history, during the Sanguozhi period, your claim was right. According to Vietnam history, the Shu was Shu Pan (Thuc Phan or Kinh Duong Vuong in Vietnamese), he was a Yue. Vietnamese and the rest of Bai Yue people claimed that they were from Than Nong.

Wu and Min Yue were up in Zhejiang, not close to North Vietnam. You mean that if someday Vietnam got into like power (just like Japan in the past) and what if they conquer the region of Southern China, do you think Chinese people would oppose that? My great grand fathers told me that Vietnamese nowadays are mostly descendents of the Yue, and Wu and Shu come after. I am not really sure if Wu and Shu were the Yue also. Even during the time of Nguyen Hue (Quang-Trung King), he planned to get Yue back together but he died early.

Vietnamese has thick lips. On newspaper, I saw this Vietnam man by the name of Mr Tran. He has thick lips, the lower one was dropping. Then i saw this Thai-American, he also has thick lower lips which kinda droop. Both men has lips that are red, not pale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanyue
"南 (nán, nam) means "south", and 越 (yuè, việt) is a variant of 粤 (yuè), the Chinese term that covers the languages and ethnicities of the southern Chinese province of Guangdong and surrounding areas. 南越 can therefore be thought of as roughly meaning "southern Cantonese."

After the Han Chinese controlled the Nan-Yue kingdom for nearly 1000 years, the Yue's land has come to shape what is now northern Vietnam. Areas of present-day Guangdong and Guangxi were completly sinicized, while the Kinh (Jing) people of the Yue form the majority of the modern-day ethnic group of Vietnam."

http://www.vny2k.net/vny2k/SiniticVietnamese3.htm

"That linguistic influence was a direct result of waves after waves of Chinese migrating population from China. Their immigrating path is a sure southward movement that might have continuously taken place in any given period over the past 5000 years in Chinese history given the hypothetical assumption that today's composition of the Vietnamese anthropology has been a mixture of Chinese immigrants from further northern territories with one of the local Yuè 粵 or 越, or BáchViệt 百越, i.e. an ethnic branch of peoples also being called by today's terminology as BăiYuè or BáchViệt people, whose descendants, being known as the Dăi ("Tày") 傣, Zhuāng 莊 or Tóng 桐 ("Nùng"), Shuǐ 水, Máonán 毛南, and some others, have been living in today's China's southern regions since the ancient times."

http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Han/han-event.html

"aboriginal people of non-Chinese origin (especially Yue 越, sometimes written 粵) occurred almost yearly as consequence of the Chinese immigration to the south (the two census of 2 AD and 140 AD show the difference between the distribution of population: famine lead many families to wander to the south). "

http://www.wikimirror.com/Yue

Yuè (越), a name associated with several concepts related to coastal South China, including:
The Yue peoples, a collection of ancient peoples in coastal southern China. They included groups such as the Luoyue (T: 駱越 S: 骆越) and Minyue (T: 閩越 S: 闽越), and inhabited the modern provinces of Jiangsu, Zhejiang, FujianFujian (Chinese: 福建; pinyin: ; Wade-Giles: Fu-chien; Postal System Pinyin: Fukien, Foukien; local transliteration Hokkien from Min Nan Hok-kiàn) is one of the provinces on the southeast coast of China. Fujian borders Zhejiang to the north, Jiangxi to the west, and Guangdong to the south. Taiwan lies to the east, across the Taiwan Straits....
[click for more], Guangdong, and Guangxi
http://www.viethoc.com/forum/read.php?f=10&i=1286&t=1181
漢書: 粵同越

http://www.mevietnam.org/NgonNgu/lva-Viet.html

Chữ Việt có hai nghĩa. Chữ Việt bộ Mễ là để nói, thời bình người Việt làm nghề nông sanh sống, lúa gạo trữ trong kho. Chữ Việt bộ Tẩu là để nói, thời chiến người Việt cầm vũ khí đi chống xâm lăng để giữ nước.

Shu Pan was known as An Duong Vuong (King of Anyang), not Kinh Duong Vuong (King of Jingyang). Kinh Duong Vuong was Lac Long Quan's father, and a supposed descendant of Shennong (as you say).

Also, Shu Pan's 'Shu' existed way before the Three Kingdoms. It was in the Warring States. Furthermore, there are scholars who question whether he really came from the State of Shu.



The claim by the Sun of Wu to be descended from Sun Wu was so suspect that even Chen Shou doubted it in his Sanguo Zhi. They were actually just a humble military family with no great ancestors, which is why Sun Jian was despised by his peers. Besides, Sun Jian had been Prefect of Changsha under the Han, so there's no reason to say he had nothing to do with the Han dynasty.

Yun is really an expert in Vietnamese history too. I wonder why nguoiViet still has the courage/face to argue with such professional historian.

I'd like to give my two cents on this subject.

First of all, we have to realize that the early Central Plains (CP) civilizations were not as rigorous as we are now in identifying border minorities and what not. Many of the southern tribes were all just lumped up together as 百越 'bai-yue' 'baak-jyut' which means "Hundred Yue" By just looking at this name, i think it's safe to assume that the CP civilizations were not interested in dividing up the tribes one by one or differentiating between them. 百越 was a term of convenience. Whether or not these southern tribes were actually related was insignificant to the CP people.
To claim that the 越國 of which one the famous rulers was 勾踐 'gou-jian' 'au-zin' is remotely related to the modern day 越南 vietnam is questionable at best. Also, the name of 越國 is supposedly derived from its founder, 于越 'yu-yue' 'jyu-jyut' the son of 少康 'shao-kang' the 7th ruler of the Xia dynasty.

Now to the claim that 越 and 粵 are genetically related.
I am not a geneticist and I know nothing about it but the topic of this thread, I assumed, was whether the terms 越 and 粵 are the same and are they related.
This, I must answer, is no they are not.
In order to answer this question we need to focus on when the peoples of modern Vietnam began to adopt the 越 when addressing themselves. I am not an expert on this topic but I would guess that they began using this term after they broke off from the Chinese? (After the 10th century?)

When did the concept of 越南 develop? What does this name mean to Vietnamese? For me, as a Cantonese, I think that 越南 is a reference to Zhao Tuo's 南越國 Kingdom of Nanyue. We must recognize that this kingdom encompassed Guangdong, Guangxi, Northern Vietnam. It is not exclusive to Vietnam! The capital of this kingdom is near modern day Guangzhou. The ruler was from the Central Plains. If either Vietnam or China had a claim to this territory, I'd argue that Chinese have a better claim. Now why is this kingdom significant? Because of the name. Why did Zhao Tuo name his kingdom 南越? Because his subjects were named as such? Chinese-styled kingdoms usually named their kingdoms by the name of the region, and since Guangdong, Guangxi were the areas inhabited by the 百越 i guess it made sense to name the kingdom 南越. Now were all the peoples related in this region? Maybe, maybe not, we'll never know. But go look at the ethnic minorities in Guangxi. They are in close proximity with Vietnam. Are the Zhuang and Vietnamese directly related? Are the Vietnamese and Zhuang language directly related? You just cannot assume that just because Vietnam was ruled under the same kingdom as Cantonese, makes these two peoples related. Han ruled parts of Korea, Vietnam, Western Regions, but we all know that Han was not directly ethnically related to Koreans, Vietnamese, or Xinjiang peoples.

As to 越 and 粵 being interchangeable. Sure, these terms might have been interchangeable during the Han Dynasty but it's 2005 now. These terms are not interchangeable. Even when they were interchangeable 2000 years ago, they were referring to a collection of ethnicities, whose relationship to each other are questionable. 粵 nowadays is exclusively used to refer to Cantonese, and that's that. Why is 粵 used? To differentiate ourselves from Vietnamese who arbitrarily took over the use of 越. How should i explain this more clearly... The 越 refers to a geographic region and 粵 also refers to a geographic region closeby.

It depends if that term was interchangable or not. If the Cantonese politically and militarily take over Vietnam, that term is interchangable. Did the school teach these 越 and 粵 preferred to non-Chinese ethnic groups? Oh man, you don't get it. I already those two are regionally different. In 漢書: 粵同越 , meaning the same meaning. The history proved that and even Vietnamese people knew that. The Vietnamese were supposed to take this 粵 but because most of the political figures came from Zhejiang this 越 made more sense to them.

Whether you differentiate these two terms, 越 and 粵, I know for sure you want to lean on the Chinese side. What does this tell you when the Chinese history proved that 越 and 粵 were non-Chinese? Zhao Tuo ruled Vietnam, Guangdong, and Guangxi, and named it Nan-Yue because he promoted the Yue ethnicities. His kingdom lasted for more than 100 years with the political stamp, (Nam Đế Hành Tỉ), proving that he was a separate Emperor of the South, although he was genetically from the North. YOu have to know that the Chinese destroyed the Yue historical books and many others coming from the Yangtze River. It's ok for you to claim to be Chinese because you have a choice to choose either one you like.

I am a Yue, live like a Yue, and fight like a Yue. You are in Vietnam now right. Probably you are taught by Communist history, which should be above all other histories.

How do you explain to him what Chanh Tong means?

Yun is an expert in Vietnamese history in only battles or military relation. I would like to argue to the Professional historian so I could find out the truth on both sides. It depends on how Yun uses rhetorics to persuade me.

Let me ask Yun a question. Who do you think have better claims on Than Nong? Which geography fit more to the description of Than Nong, the North China or South China?

Tto be fair to Sun, I believed that San Guozi was written by a historian of the Jin dynasty, the dynasty that conquered the Wu. Since the Jin themselves did not have a strong claim to noble blood, I would have reason to believe that they were trying to discredit their enemit by saying Sun Jian lied about his ancestry.


Liu Bei's claim of lineage from the Han royal family is also suspect. If anything Liu probably had the most humble background out of all the three pretenders.

I didn't say Sun had nothing to do with the Han dynasty. I just said they did not claim lineage from Han.

If they were not distinct because the Sun family were Han servants, then would you also argue that the Jin dynasty is not distinct from the Wei dynasty? After all the Sima family served with distniction under Wei.

Chanhtong,
Now I understand which Shu you were talking about.

You did not get the idea at all, nguoiViet. 粵 and 越 are interchangable so there is nothing like"Vietnamese adopted 越 instead of 粵 because they are related to Zhejiang Yue instead of Cantonese Yue". 粵 was invented later while 越 was invented earlier to describe people in Yangzi area, and even 100 Yue. No way Vietnamese would have taken 粵 as their identity because this would only mean they were the same as Cantonese (粵 is specifically used to refer to Canton and Cantonese). Vietnamese used 越 long before 粵 was invented. For example Dai Viet in Le/Ly/Tran dynasties.
"The Vietnamese were supposed to take this 粵 but because most of the political figures came from Zhejiang this 越 made more sense to them."
Do you have evidence to support this?

So eventually what you wanted to assert is that Vietnamese came from South China. Then South China history was not glorious enough you wanted to assert that they had contributed equally as North China to China history. This shows the perspective of a pro-Chinese person. Maybe you should have been born a Chinese.
Contradictory to you I believe that ancient Vietnamese had little relation to Yue in South China. But over 2000 years of contact and colonization South China has influenced Vietnam both culturally and genetically (to lesser extent as I always believe that Vietnamese are more Khmer genetically).

I am not taken in by the double play of nguoiVietchanhtong and AhMan with both promoting the absorption and subordination of Cantonese genetics, cultural and historical development under the 南越 and 越南 iconography. The public disagreement between the two is the detail of the delineation of the Cantonese 粵 from the their supposed primal trunk of Viet 越. I content that even though both people Cantonese 粵 and Viet 越 have, at an ancient historic juncture, come together, collided, and occupied the same geopolitical space yet the two people have different and separate roots before that historical juncture and subsequently after that historic juncture have gone their separate ways.

The ancestors of the Cantonese 粵 are from The Han River and The Middle Yangtze River whiles the ancestors of the Viet 越 are from The Upper Huai River of Henan. During the historic juncture of 南越 and Bai Yue 百越, the ancestors of the Cantonese 粵 had political affiliation opposed to that of the dominant 南越 and Bai Yue 百越. The ancestors of the Cantonese 粵 were affiliated to the defeated Chu 楚 cause. The ancestors of the Viet 越 on the other hand were initially affiliated to the victorious Qin 秦. After the collapse of the Qin 秦, the ancestors of the Viet 越 turned against the Qin 秦 to rule over the conquered Chu 楚 and ancestors of the Cantonese 粵 in the place of the former Qin 秦.

The later historical development would see the Han invasion going into Guangdong and Guangxi where the Viet 越 were forced south in to present day Vietnam. The Cantonese stayed where they were in Guangdong and Guangxi under the rule of the Han Dynasty.

粵 and 越 comparison is like shirt and skirt. Modern day persons popularly don't think they are same root.


I agree. The term 粵 was invented quite late. That's why in past they could only be used for 百粵. Since it's easier to write 越 than 粵, 粵 might once be abandoned (and only avalaible in expert's dictionary), after that revived and used to refer only the 2 Guangs.

The meaning for "tribe" for 粵 might not be so new, but I think it has been invented long enough. 粵 has other meaning for original definition. I think I've posted it in this thread.


IMO use of 粵 as Cantonese is quite new.

Source? I've never heard any country in the Zhou warring state age called "粵".

^During the Han Dynasty, Guangdong still had a majority Yue. Maybe back then they were really more like the modern Vietnamese.

But, the crucial and turning point in history came during the late Tang/early Song era. The civil wars prior to the end of the Tang Dynasty witnessed a lost of live and drop in population in Guangdong. Many of those who perished were the native Yue and Middle Eastern merchant classes. The population only grew with the fall of the Tang and the early formation of Song. People from the north and central plains began to migrate south as a result. That is why modern Cantonese sometimes still refer to themselves as Tang. The Yue didn't all die out. The remainder mixed with the incoming northern migrants. I had talked to a Chinese researcher who studies DNA and ethnic genetics and he said the mixing was mostly one way: usually Han male with Yue female.

That's why you occasionally see some Southeast Asian/Austronesian appearance on some Cantonese facial features. But, there are also occasionally some who look like they could be from in northern interior parts of China as well. I see this in my own family. Some of my Toisanese relatives have eyeshapes and nose shapes that cannot even be seen amongst any Vietnamese person I met in my entire life.

That is why I am adamant that not all Cantonese are genetically pure Yue like some on this forum keep on insisting.

My professor said 'shirt' and 'skirt' are 2 Germanic words from different branch, where 'skirt' is Scandinavian (I forgot where 'shirt' came from). Originally it was a piece of long cloth. I think their males wore like Chinese, 'shirt' and 'skirt' started to be distinguished due to the use of pants.


Do they in the picture below look Chinese? Mongoloid? Austronesian? Neither? Mixed?

Actually, what is 'Chanh Tong'?
Edit: chánh tông=正宗
I understand this term but I can't translate it to English.


We are also discussing about this in http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=6656


Language has not too much to do with genetics (mostly due to genetic drift->I'm not sure about this term).
e.g. Mundas are closest to Dravidians

I've been using 粤語 longer, and more often than 廣東話. I have also heard people using 廣州話. This was more recent, like, 2 years ago. I've never heard people use 廣州話 up until then.

Please don't call me Los Angel, Angeleno is the correct name used to distiguished residents of the Los Angeles City/County.

No one is genetically a pure Yue. What does the Han male and Yue female? I don't think the % up to that high since most of the kill aimed on Yue soldiers and political figures. IMO, to be safe, just nearly over 50%.

You probably met and compared to around 1000 Vietnamese people. That's probably nothing compared to the %. Travel to Vietnam and you will experience more. Maybe your face is not usual comparing to the normal Cantonese faces.

I'm not Vietnamese, and I live in Singapore. I have also never been taught by Communists.



I am not an expert in Vietnamese history. But I have a book by my professor, who is an expert. It covers political, social, economic and military history.



Let's look at the Shiji of Sima Qian, which is the earliest source we have on Shennong. It says that Shennong grew up along the Jiang River, which is a tributary of the Wei River, and is west of Chang'an. He originally had his capital in Chen, which is in Henan, and then moved it to Qufu, which is in Shandong. All these are in north China. But he was buried in Changsha after his death, and that is in Hunan in south China. Thus there may be some reason why his supposed descendant Kinh Duong Vuong was linked with the daughter of the god of Lake Dongting, which is near Changsha.

Your argument is that farming is more important in south China than north China? The Huainanzi states that Shennong taught people the cultivation of the five grains (wu gu): rice, millet, broomcorn millet, wheat, and beans. Of these five, only rice is from the south. The rest are northern crops, or (in the case of beans) grown in both north and south.

What are you trying to say??

You are trying to say: citizens were not usually killed so there is Vietnamese male lineages in South China?

Among Indonesians friends I travelled with to Vietnam, most of them think 80% Vietnamese look Chinese. I'm not sure because my view itself its not that high. I even realized something strange about my view: even not all South Chinese look like Chinese(?). Probably that is due to the 'Austronesian features' meant by kaixin.

For the benefit of the others: we are talking about Shu Pan 蜀泮, a prince from the Sichuan state of Shu 蜀 who is said to have come to the Lac Viet 骆越 kingdom of Van Lang 文郎 ruled by the Hong Vuong 雄王 king in the late Warring States period, defeated the Hong Vuong and conquered the Lac Viet using a magic crossbow, and then founded a new kingdom called Au Lac 瓯骆. He took the title of An Duong Vuong 安阳王, or King of Anyang.

Shu Pan is mentioned in the now-lost Chinese source 《南越记》, a fragment of which survives in the 《太平寰宇记》. He is also mentioned in Vietnamese historical texts dating from as early as the 11th century. However, in 257 BC (when Shu Pan is supposed to have invaded Van Lang), the state of Shu had already been conquered by the state of Qin 秦 a century before. Thus scholars in China doubt that Shu Pan was really from Shu, and theorise that he was just from a family in the Guangxi region with the surname of Shu.

I have never suggested there ever was a state called "粵". However I have propounded the ancestors of the Cantonese 粵 did consolidate into a political kingdom state entity called LuLiang from 1st millennium to 214 Before Christian Era when Qin general Ming Tien and Qin general Chao To conquered Fukien, Kwantung, Kwangsi, and North Vietnam. Sima Qian, Historical Records, The Annals of Qin. Where the literature recorded the former prisoners of the Qin state were sent to garrison the three provinces of Nanhai (Guangdong), Guilin (northern Guangxi), and Xiang (southern Guangxi and part of northern Vietnam) that have been made from the Luliang state. These former Qin prisoners were the Bai Yue 百越 prisoners of war who were freed after pledging allegiance to the Qin state and worked as mercenaries/auxiliaries for the Qin to pacify the local natives (ancestors of the Cantonese 粵 and Chu 楚 refugees) of Luliang.

Later it is recorded in Sima Qian, Historical Records, The Story of the Rebel Chen Sheng that the Qin conquered the Bai Yue 百越 and employed them in the provinces of Guilin and Xiang.

At least I saw 粵 in a book written nearly a century ago. It is called pronunciation of Yue language (remembered vaguely, written by certain Wong (Huang).
Unless Cantonese speak to foreigners like Vietnamese, Thai...they often use Yuehua to refer to Cantonese when conversing with Chinese fellows.