I do not expect someone posting nonsense here in CHF like that.

Who do you think you are?
Expert?
New data, new information?
Atempt to re-write theories?

If you are not expert in the field, please, just follow the trend.
If you do not want to follow the trend, please, keep your objection to yourself alone,
so that other do not laugh at you.
Don't go backward and saying the trend is being rewritten.

It's personal interpretation to assign people with a genetic marker. How can 1/3 of the Buryats have this lineage?

ShenNong. I don't think there are evidences that he is a Yue.

Bai Yue does not mean one single group. I'm not sure if Ou Yue and Luo Yue are the Daic people.

Muong is the closest relative to Vietnamese in linguistics. The language has 5 tones and lots of Chinese loanwords. I don't know about Son Tinh.

A theory will be killed sooner or later. Theory that is dead by confirmed observations is most likely cannot be revived. Just because many people disagree does not mean that it's wrong/killed.
The 'pluto is no longer a planet' is because of discovery of an object in the Kuiper belt which is larger than pluto itself. Seemingly slightly, though.
as a side note, actually "Experts also said that Pluto was a planet but is no longer a planet" is closer by analogy to "Experts also said that Vietnamese was Sino-Tibetan but no longer."

Once I read that foreign-like words e.g. 囝 kia(n) in MinNan came from Austroasiatic. I don't know about Wu, but Cantonese has 睇.

Yeah.

When you argue , you argue based on rationalisation.

I have seen some nonsense sprouted by some members here including YOU but I don't go and scold them.

It really shows your nasty personality, immaturity and close mindedness. If you hate the chinese so much, please go and change your name, customs, religion etc to your original viet name, customs and religion.

If you don't agree with me, you can argue with facts or if you don't have any facts to argue (which apparently you don't), just ignore my posts !

I have never said that Bai Yue is ONE single group, did I ?

Since this is language related, I have answered it in the asian history language section.




Theories can be rewritten many times and not just ONE time when new data comes in. It is just like the original christian bible mentioned reincarnation but now the reincarnation is no longer there in the bible. Do you think reincarnation will appear again if new facts on reincarnation appears ?

You didn't.
But there might be differences on the language family as well.

A theory that is already "proven to be not plausible" should not be (able to be) revived again. New data can only make another theory not revive the old one.
I've found no instance of a theory that is rejected by concrete observations then revived.

Where did the Christian bible mention reincarnation? And why did it disappear?

It disappeared when one of the roman emperor decided to change the bible.... There are still verses in the bible that indirectly refer to reincarnation.

Jesus is nothing more than a sage just like gautama buddha etc.

Which verses can you point?
Anyway, if it was really changed like that, then it was just changed at the discretion of the Roman Emperor. There was no need for any specific observations on whether it's likely or not.
And I don't think it's going to be added back though any theory that is not refuted "properly" might be revived.

http://www.crystalinks.com/reincarnation.html

The Roman Emperor Constantine married his way into power. His wife mysteriously disappeared. His second wife was his ticket to the throne. Then he had her killed. His third wife was a prostitute who had risen to the throne in the same diabolical ways Constantine had and who lived to have a devastating effect on the belief in reincarnation. She feared that her sins would follow from lifetime to lifetime infuriated her. She did not like the idea of Karma. Her life was filled with lies and treachery. She was not interested in advocated any religion that would demote her in another life. Thus she persuaded Emperor Constantine to remove reincarnation from Christianity.

Who amongst the Roman Empiror and his wives wrote the Bible, Old or New Statement?

Well, I don't too much believe in E.T. contact.
But even if it were true, I don't think he removed any section from the bible, just remove it from "normal concept of Christianity". But that also look not really right, otherwise those who adopt reincarnation would be persecuted...

btw, those changes were based on politics rather than concrete observations.

They couldn't possibly write the bible. But they possibly modified it. Just like a film can made then later be censored.
But I think the bible is continually being re-translated as the languages change, so the change might not matter much.

Why can you guys leave Vietnamese people in peace?

As we've already known, the modern Vietnamese mostly comprised from the stock of Ou Yue and Luo Yue; since there was not sufficient writing accords for us to learn much about the Bai Yue; it's worthy for us to discuss and learn more about the connection, development, and history of the Bai Yue who lived in this vast region of South of China to Northern Vietnam.

We cannot find more truth on BaiYue and ancient Vietnamese by re-read old records over and over again.

We need more information rather than trying to re-interpret old records into different meanings.

Are millions of mordern Chinese and Vietnamese uncapable of interpret old records years after years?

Somebody has been trying to "re-write" History, and now are we trying to "re-interpret" History?

TV:

You've raised many questions perhaps including few interesting ones! It's more helpful if you could provide your own explanation with supportive facts. Your assertion is always welcome to share and learn as long it's valid and accepted by unbiased readers!

OK.

BaiYue has been known as the old term regarding many non-Han ethnic groups in south China empire,
including the ancient Vietnamese.

Can we by any means see BaiYue in different meanings? What else can we learn about it?
How far we go after many posts in this thread? What is the expecting destination in this thread?
Could and How we find the root of BaiYue people? Are all BaiYue people from the same root?
And is the root as the same as the root of Han people as our root are from Africans?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...man/photo2.html
National Geographic News: Journey of Man
----------------
http://dnatribes.com/pops-eastasia.html

Ethnic Origin: Malay
top genetic matches: Malay, Javaness, Japanese, Indonesian, Taiwanese, Thai.
-------------------------

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...p;dopt=Abstract

The Kinh exhibit some very high-frequency alleles both at DRB1 (1202, which has been confirmed by DNA sequencing, and 0901) and DQB1 (0301, 03032, 0501) loci, which make them one of the most homogeneous population tested so far for HLA class II in East Asia. Three haplotypes account for almost 50% of the total haplotype frequencies in the Vietnamese. The most frequent haplotype is HLA-DRB1*1202-DRB3*0301-DQB1*0301 (28%), which is also predominant in Southern Chinese, Micronesians and Javanese. On the other hand, DRB1*1201 (frequent in the Pacific) is virtually absent in the Vietnamese. The second most frequent haplotype is DRB1*0901-DRB4*01011-DQB1*03032 (14%), which is also commonly observed in Chinese populations from different origins, but with a different accessory chain (DRB4*0301) in most ethnic groups. Genetic distances computed for a set of Asiatic and Oceanian populations tested for DRB1 and DQB1 and their significance indicate that the Vietnamese are close to the Thai, and to the Chinese from different locations. These results, which are in agreement with archaeological and linguistic evidence, contribute to a better understanding of the origin of the Vietnamese population, which has until now not been clear.

------------------------------
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...p;dopt=Abstract

The comparison of the Vietnamese with other East Asian populations showed a close genetic relationship of the population under investigation with other Orientals. However, the Vietnamese population can be differentiated by the significantly higher frequency of the enzyme morph HincII-5 and by seven new markers. These results strongly support the hypothesis of a dual ethnic origin of the Vietnamese population from the Chinese and Thai-Indonesian populations based on HLA markers and linguistic evidence.
-----------------------------------

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum

The comparison of HLA class II allele and haplotype frequencies in Jing with those in other populations all over the world and a dendrogram based on the DRB1, DQB1 and DPB1 genes suggested that Jing ethnic population has an origin of Southeast Asia and is belonged to the southern group of Chinese populations.


-------------------------------
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum

Phylogenetic trees constructed using the allele frequencies at the DRB1 locus of the populations reported here, as well as those for additional Pacific, Asian, and Australian populations, indicate that the PNG (Papua New Guinea) Highland population is more closely related to Australian populations than to PNG Lowland populations, while the PNG Lowlands are more closely related to other Melanesian populations.

---------------------------

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum

Comparative analysis of the HLA-DR/DQ alleles revealed differences in the distributions of these alleles amongst different ethnic groups. Interestingly, the distributions of HLA class II alleles in Central Thai, North-eastern Thai and Southern Chinese populations are similar. However, it appears that the distribution in the Central Thais is a mixture of those in Southern Chinese and North-eastern Thais, suggesting the existence of Thai-Chinese admixtures in the Central Thai population. This study provides basic information for further studies of the MHC in anthropology, organ transplantation and disease susceptibility in the North-eastern Thai population.
---------------------------------

http://vetinarilord.blogspot.com/2006/03/y...on-in-east.html
Genetic Chaos by Havelock

Friday, March 31, 2006

Based on the result of the dual patterns of the haplotype distribution, it is more likely that the population structure of Koreans may not have evolved from a single ancient population derived from Northeast Asians, but through dual infusions of Y chromosomes entering Korea from two different waves of East Asians.


Inferred from the distribution of the newfound immediate ancestor lineage haplogroup O*, which has M214 but not M175, we argue that the southern origin scenario of this most common Chinese Y haplogroup is not very likely. We tentatively propose a West/North-origin hypothesis, suggesting that haplogroup O originated in West/North China and mainly evolved in China and thence spread further throughout eastern Eurasia. The nested cladistic analysis revealed in detail a multilayered, multidirectional, and continuous history of ethnic admixture that has shaped the contemporary Chinese population. Our results give some new clues to the evolution and migration of the Chinese population and its subsequence moving about in this land, which are in accordance with the historical records.

Our results indicate that the O3-M122 lineage is dominant in East Asian populations, with an average frequency of 44.3%. The microsatellite data show that the O3-M122 haplotypes in southern East Asia are more diverse than those in northern East Asia, suggesting a southern origin of the O3-M122 mutation. It was estimated that the early northward migration of the O3-M122 lineages in East Asia occurred ~25,000–30,000 years ago, consistent with the fossil records of modern humans in East Asia.

Historic Japanese culture evolved from at least two distinct migrations that originated on the Asian continent. Hunter-gatherers arrived before land bridges were submerged after the last glacial maximum (>12,000 years ago) and gave rise to the Jomon culture, and the Yayoi migration brought wet rice agriculture from Korea beginning ~2,300 years ago.
And
We infer that these patterns result from separate and distinct genetic contributions from both the Jomon and the Yayoi cultures to modern Japanese, with varying levels of admixture between these two populations across the archipelago. The results also support the hypothesis of a Central Asian origin of Jomonese ancestors, and a Southeast Asian origin of the ancestors of the Yayoi, contra previous models based on morphological and genetic evidence.

What's your interpretation from these reports TV?

Too long to read ! For those who doesn't know much about genetics, please summarise in SIMPLE ENGLISH !

Nothing special.

Obviously the "top matches" mean people who tried it.

It's "well-known" that South Chinese HLA matches Javanese and Vietnamese; also that Greek HLA matches Subsaharan African and quite far from Europeans.

Well, nothing surprising.
But the abstract does not show how the new markers are related to Southeast Asia...

Jing does belong to "Chinese Southern minorities". And the relation to S.E.A is just like what I said about HLA analysis above.
Did they find out the diversity of the gene? Because I tend to believe S.E.Asian came from South China more than the other way around.

It is Papuan and Thai, respectively, therefore irrelevant...

Well, the first link does not seem too right, because it does not show that O* is from North. Anyway, if O3 is from South therefore in some way Chinese were descended from Southeast Asian (might have looked quite different from what people think).

Yes. I think there is nothing new.
However, I want to go over them to see whether any of us sees something new from these.
At least, we see that I do not deny that the Vietnamese Jing share some genes with the Chinese Han.

However, it is unsufficient evidences in DNA study to show that the Vietnamese Jing are closer relatives
to the Chinese Han than other ethnic groups in South East Asia.

These DNA findings do not suggest that the Vietnamese King were Chinese immigrants (Han or Non-Han)
from the land of the south of the YangZi river (ChangJiang river) as someone have been insisting.
They do not support the hypothesis that the ancient Vietnamese had once populated the area of south
China, as much and as far as LingNan area, let alone the south of ChangJiang delta.

Eventhough when the Chinese Han and the Vietnamese Jing share more genes than anyone else in the
world, they common anscestor could not have been either Jing or Han, for there was no Han or Jing then.
The term BaiYue can never interpreted as a single ethnic group, for at that time, people who may share
the same anscestor were no longer in one ethnic group. It was not a legend or a myth. It was already
a written record then.

As we have been having the same thinking on DNA studies above, I hope, at least, we agree on some
ideas I wrote above.

Well, nobody has been able to test all the genes.

People may mix in some personal opinion and distort the conclusion "a bit".

O-M122 did indeed derive from Southeast Asia but most people carrying this marker are Han Chinese (north and south). Over 60% frequency. Tibetans have a 48% frequency. In Koreans and Japanese, it can be 40-60%. The Hmongs have a high frequency too. But, the other southern minority are higher in a different branch (M119).

This means that O-M122 is the direct ancestor of Hans (maybe Tibetans too) but had branched away from the Southeast Asian O ancestor (O-M175) for quite some time to develop its own. It later spread to other groups like Hmong, Korean, Japanese.

What is the dominant Y marker in Vietnamese?

The direct ancestor of M175, M214 is most likely from the North.
(see also the above quote "Inferred from the distribution of the newfound immediate ancestor lineage haplogroup O*, which has M214 but not M175, we argue that the southern origin scenario of this most common Chinese Y haplogroup is not very likely.")
I don't know if M175 should be Southern or Northern.

M119 -> O1
M268 -> O2
M122 -> O3
M231 should be the N lineage.


Both O1 and O3 are large.
taken from http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/SAGA_ch17_proof.pdf
Colored image: http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y121/fi1/...EurasiaFNOP.jpg

About the O lineage: http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpO.html

I don't know much about genetics but are you saying that those who have high M122 are considered Han descendants ?

It is not surprising that Tibetans have high M122 because they and the Han chinese both came from KunLun mountain before the Xia dynasty and before they mixed with indigenous groups after migration to china and tibet respectively.

Dear,
In viet nam they have just found some very valuable artifacts and the tombs of the people belong to the prehistory time .Their skeletons marked ten of thousands years ago in the prehistory`s caves in the north of viet nam.
I do not think they go through the processing of DNA`s Yet.
Viet nam`s sience is just starting.It `s so behind some wellknown universities in the world
If some one can help Viet nam in this area. There will have the answers for all.
thanks

Read the statement again.... he did not say that M122 is Han descendant marker but rather Han's ancestor (there might be no name for them that time).

Bai Yue people are related but not the same as Vietnamese. It's actually a generic term for multiple ethnicities in modern Southeast China + North Vietnam rather than a single ethnicity, and Vietnamese's ancestor was one of them.

The langage sound a bit different actually. But for foreigner who are not used to hearing tonal languages, the focus of attention is the quickly-changing pitches.

Please don't include multiple ethnicities but rather politically different groups in the South with similar cultural and superfacial patterns.

It's not about the sound and tonal quickly changing pitches. Some words in Cantonese sound almost the same with Vietnamese but different meanings.

For instance, tac ngo zat go yan (I am lonely). Let's separate that phrase into several single sounds. Tac in Vietnamese and Cantonese share the same tone and pitch. Tac in Cantonese means correct but in Vietnamese means in the state of not moving or the name of small lemon. Same thing is with ngo, zat, go, and yan. Yan in Cantonese is person but in Vietnamese is savings, like da`nh du.m. Some words share similar sounds such as bank (ngan hang in Vietnamese and ngin hang in Cantonese) and moi (each) and dac biet (special), and some small variations depending on the speech or local region.

Forgive my Cantonese pin yin, it was out of my Vietnamese pin yin.

On whether the Bai Yue were a single ethnic group, and whether they were related to the earlier Yue kingdom, I'd recommend a recent article by Erica Brindley of Pennsylvania State University: "Barbarians or Not? Ethnicity and Changing Conceptions of the Ancient Yue (Viet) Peoples, ca. 400-50 BC", in Asia Major Volume XVI Part 1, 2003.

Brindley's tentative conclusion is that “the Hundred Yue might not merely be a shorthand for the broken-up principalities of the previous state of Yue…. ‘Yue’ had become a relevant marker for peoples and places situated most anywhere in the entire southern portion of the traditional area of what is now modern China and in northern Vietnam."

She also says: "The term 'Ou', named after the Ou River in southern Zhejiang, seems to have retained strong associations with the defunct kingdom of Yue. As Keith Taylor points out, many small principalities that sprang up around the two kingdoms of Yue, Min Yue and Southern Yue, "apparently chose to associate themselves with the venerable traditions of the Ou in order to increase their prestige with the more powerful kingdoms." Eastern and Western Ou were two such kingdoms, and it is precisely this term, Ou, that is picked up and used thousands of miles to the west of its origins to refer to the ancient Vietnamese kingdom of Au Lac."

Again, superficial similarity.
But anyway, a total foreigner is most concerned about the pitch changes rather than some specific types of syllables as they can't catch many syllables of a medium-length or longer speech (as they can't understand it).

The tone is different, high rising Rusheng and high falling Rusheng can be found in Cantonese but the checked syllables can only be high rising I suppose.
It's not a z...
The tones of "ngo", "co" (Vietnamese spelling) are not found in Vietnamese but a non-Cantonese will not really notice.
And, the above does not exactly mean "I am lonely"... but similar. I don't know how to translate it. More like "There's only me, one person".

Those Vietnamese were loaned from Middle Chinese.
Ngan hang (bank) and mui (every) in Cantonese.

^ Ngan hong

行 has two readings in Cantonese: hang and hong.

You are right.
Last time I only noticed that NVCT did wrong in the first syllable so I just copied and changed it.

In Vietnamese, besides words from Han, there are words from Thai language.
In Cantonese, besides words from Han, there are also words from Thai language.
Therefore, Vietnamese and Cantonese may have some common words.
That does not mean Vietnamese words are from Cantonese, or Cantonese words are from Vietnamese.
Eventhough Vietnamese-Cantonese common words are not found in Thai language,
we never know from which langugage those common words come.
They may com from very long time ago, when there were neither Vietnamese nor Cantonese.

I think Cantonese is just ancient chinese, read a Tang poem in Cantonese, you will find them sound a lot more natural and more beautiful than in mandarin, I don't belive its just an coincident.

That time there should also be no Thai language.
Direct loans from Thai language is not very likely to Cantonese as they are quite far away.
Tai is not the same as Thai.
We have "hundred Yues" that might have loaned from each other, obscuring where the original source is.

It's a "coincidence" because Mandarin rusheng rhymes are bad, whereas in other cases Cantonese merges many things together so that some "non-full rhymes" becomes "full rhymes" like 流 and 樓 (medial difference. Well, to prove there are differences we may have to consider Chinese loanwords in Japanese/Korean/Vietnamese. There was an off-topic discussion in http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...t&p=4804317 )
There are no medials in modern Cantonese, but the "k" initial preserved the "-w-" which is merged to something else in most cases, making 軌 no longer rhyming with 水.

Are the Shan-Yue apart of this grouping as well? If so, where were these people predominantly located?

Earlier history were written by the Han, therefore there maybe was a twisted to it. If Zhao Tou was a Northern Chinese, with proud civilization, Why didn't he name his empire more Northern instead he name it "Nanyue. Where Yue was considered barbarian at the time. It could be he was a Yue himself and after the Han conquered the Nanyue and rewritten history to make it more legitimate Han Chinese.

I am from the region of acient Yue kingdom.Now it's called Ningbo City.I think it's a very long history from my first ancestor moving into this region.And when I was at middle-school,once I saw a familytree book belonged to my grandfather(my mother's father).My grandfather told me he actully had lost much more of that books during Culture Revolution time--except that last one.And he showed me a bucket which was passed down through generations for memory of the first ancestor who move into Yue for the first time.He said it was made before many centuries,may be help when it's tough time.But he never sold that.I still remember the characters on that bucket,but I can not spell the first one,not because I am not literature ,but I just can not look up that character in any dictionary,the other 3 characters are(from the 2nd to the 4th):陵铭传.So it's a name of a place I think,and this place was where one of my ancestoers came from.
After my grandfather went in peace for ever,I never see neither the book nor the bucket.And I can never know more about the history of my blood.I am Han and also Yue,and I speak in both way,that's all.

Then, the homeland of ZhaoTuo is an excellent make up? By CiMaTian or other Chinese Historians?

Anyway, ancient Bai Yue are amongst of the mordern Han's anscestors now. Who tells the Cantonese are not Han Chinese?
Why does someones try to differentiate the Cantonese from what they call Han Chinese who are not Cantonese?
Is this better to call yourself Han Beijing, Han Ningbo, Han Shanxi, Han Canton, Han Yunnan, etc, rather than Han, or Chinese?

Perhaps you might have forgotten that there was sucessive waves of mass immigration of other ethnic groups from the central plain into the southern part of the Yangze river (Yueh's region) including the proto-Cantonese as well (should you define Han as an ethnic); however, the Han's concept has always been a cultural assimilation concept instead of basing on the ethnic idea therefore pls clarify your idea of referrence though!