Yuè Fēi (岳飞), AD 1103 - 1142, was one of the most famous patriot, martyr and hero in Chinese history.

His death engineered by the Emperor GaoZong of Song and minister Qin Kuai (秦桧) is well known.

However, I personally find the actual charge of Mò Xū You (莫须有) to be the most hard to understand.

This was besides the earlier fabricated accusations made against him by Qin Kuai's cronies such as Imperial Inspector Moqi Xie (万俟卨) which charged him with failure to act when the Jurchens attacked Huai Xi (淮西) as well as withdrawing from numerous battlegounds, and another by former superior Zhang Jun (张俊), former subordinates Wang Gui (王贵) and Wang Jun (王俊) accusing him of trying to make use of subordinate Zhang Xian (张宪) to seize the city of XiangYang (襄阳).

I have encountered different explanations for the term Mò Xū You in the Chinese language and the English language, but none were satisfactory.
Of course, I accept that all charges against Yue Fei were triumphed-up in the first place, but I thought at least some decorum of form was observed even by the Emperor and Qin Kuai. Qin Kuai might be a villain, but he was far from being stupid.

One explanation as given in Chinese (website 杨周：鹿象辩论－－中国千年大悲剧（七）) was Yue Fei was guilty of disobeying the recall order until 12 "golden tablets" had to be despatched. Yue Fei's explanation that a general commanding an away force had the discretion to decide how to respond to the ruler's order (将在外, 君命有所不受) was deemed "unacceptable".
It was the unacceptability of that excuse that was the actual Mò Xū You. Qin Kuai was saying that Yue Fei's initial non-compliance with the recall order had no legal basis.

Due to the unpopularity of the action, the meaning of Mò Xū You became synonymous with "not guilty" (无罪名), and its original meaning forgotten.

It was actually not certain if Yue Fei even used the excuse of being a general in distant command. Nor was there any real proof that he intended to defy the recall order. Strictly speaking, the phrase (将在外, 君命有所不受) itself was a conventional wisdom rather than appear in any written military regulation, at least at the era.

Subsequently, another explanation arose for Mò Xū You as "Not Necessarily There" (不必有), which was derived from a very literal character by character reading of 莫须有. This was an outright abuse of power on the part of the lord towards the subject.

Yet a third explanation (website "莫须有"的罪名) arose that the term Mò Xū You was the pretext given by Qin Kuai to General Han ShiZong (韩世忠) who questioned the existence of evidence against Yue Fei's conspiring with Zhang Xian. Qin Kuai meant that the lack of evidence might not mean innocence. In other words, it is presumed guilt. The catch was it was practically impossible to prove innocence because there was no definite detail of what the guilt was or how to prove something did not exist.

Does any one know the actual charges made against Yue Fei and the original meaning of Mò Xū You (莫须有)?

In my opinion, the trumped up charge against Yuefei of Mò Xū You (莫须有) is as good as (或许有) "which means may have had the intentions or may have wanted to". In the case of Yuefei, Gaozong & Qinhui basically accused him of having the intentions to rebel. Many historians point out that it was Gaozong and not Qinhui that masterminded the downfall of Yuefei, as Gaozong feared that he would have to relinquish his throne had Yuefei did manage to rescue Huizong & Qinzong from the Jurchens. Qinhui only went along with the wishes of Gaozong as he hated and was jealous of Yuefei as well. In conclusion, Yuefei was doomed right from the beginning when he took his vow in front of the entire court that he will erase the humiliation the Song Dynasty has suffered when they lost Kaifeng and the 2 Emperors to the Jurchens, this humiliating defeat for the Song has been termed as "靖康之耻".

While Qin Kuai was no mere lackey following his master's wishes, the emperor was definitely the culprit.

Years ago, I read an article that Emperor GaoZong actually had no reason to and did not fear the return of his father and brother. He had already established his own power base and his own Court in the south.

The article suggested that it was Yue Fei himself that the Emperor mistrusted. From what I can remember, there were a few arguments for that.

First, Yue Fei was not the only general or official rooting to fight the Jurchens or rescuing the two captive emperors. Nor was he the only successful general against the Jurchens.

Second, the Emperor had been deposed briefly in AD 1129 by two of his generals, Miao Fu (苗傅) and Liu ZhengYan (刘正彦), which led him to be wary of generals, a traditional fixation of Song emperors.

Third, Yue Fei himself had "overstepped" his limits as a general in some incidents, one in particular about appointing an heir for the impotent Gao Zong, the other was to mourn for his mother and unilaterally quit his post (attributed to being given command and then relieved command of the Huai Xi army). There were other instances when he persisted in objecting to the Emperor even after other loyal officials realised its futility and counter-productiveness.

One interesting article in chinese.
http://www.djz.edu.my/kecheng/lishi/quweil...gguo/yuefei.htm

An alternative look at Yue Fei from the Jurchen's official records.
http://www.guxiang.com/lishi/renwu/junshi/...00311020001.htm
alternative website http://cul.sohu.com/2004/03/30/23/article219672361.shtml

One more website proposing that the emperor executed Yue Fei to restore his air of authority
http://military.china.com/zh_cn/history2/0...1/12233131.html

Another site explaining how politics and Yue Fei's personality led to fatal end.
http://military.china.com/zh_cn/history2/0...1/12233089.html

I have also read what Highlander mentioned, that Mo Xu You 莫须有 was a version of the phrase Huo Xu You 或许有 ("there may have been a crime").

BTW, can someone confirm whether 秦桧 is Qin Kui, Qin Gui, Qin Kuai, or Qin Hui? I've seen it pronounced in all sorts of ways.

Well I've known the character is pronouced 'Gui' in Mandarin. However Everyone I know calls him Qin Hui.

Read my 6 May post on this thread: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...topic=295&st=30

Basically, one word in answer to your question. Tumu.

It just means "Doesn't need to have one".

"Mo Xu You 莫须有 " generally means "there probably is" or "there probably isn't" ("或许有"又"或许没有")



I think, the pronunciation should be "Qin Kui", at least that's what I hear from watching most drama series about Song and Yuefei.

So "Mo Xu You 莫须有" seems to be something like "maybe, maybe not - who cares?"



My Chinese dictionary says that 桧 is pronounced 'gui' when referring to the juniper tree, but 'hui' when used for names. So it should be Qin Hui. Shows that television should not be taken as an authority.

Ah... did someone call?

Yeah, why on earth, after the examples of people like Zu Ti, did you not set up precautions or simply denounce the recall order as the plots of traitors?

some interesting news. apparently, the local gov in jiangxi erected statues of qin hui/kui and 4 other 'evil officials', shown kneeling in front of the tomb belonging to yue fei's mum. this in turn, pissed off the self proclaimed still remaining descendent of qin, saying that his ancestor had already kneeled in front of yue fei for hundreds of years, why does he have to kneel again in front of yue's mum, who died before her son was killed? heh.






photos from http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2005-06-09/08566123123s.shtml

And allow myself to be accused of rebellion?

Actually, I thought they should make a statue of Emperor Gaozong of Song to kneel in apology ...

精忠报国 / 精忠報國 jīng zhōng bào gúo,

NOT 精忠报君 jīng zhōng bào jūn

Death, can be light as a swan's feather, or as heavy as Mount Tai.

It was a given who benefitted from your death.

Would your example be an inspiration for capable men to serve the emperor and risk their lives to fight the invaders?

Or would it alienate the patriots and question the worth of solidarity?

In my time, Country = Mandate of Heaven = Emperor = semi-God

By the way, the whole messenger thing, the imperial plots, the treacheries... hmmm... no I don't know exactly what went on in the palace. Even if I had bad vibes, I'd give it a benefit of a doubt... hey, after all it was the Imperial decree, yeah?

Would you say "NO" to that if it was you?

If I was brought up in that era, I don't know how I would respond, guess it will depend on my nature and upbringing and experience.

But after the fiasco of Jing Kang, the infallibility and divine stature of the emperor must be taken with a big pinch of salt.

After the blood shed by my loyal comrades, if I had an inkling of what was going on, given the Court's past record of appeasement, I'll confer with the army I'm leading.

And if the general concensus is GO ... we CHARGE!!!!!
After all, I'd already ignored 11 "golden tokens", what's another one?

Right.
In the middle of constant battles with foreign forces, my army could have head straight to the capital, denounce the King of Fools, and all his imperial lackeys slaughter everyone in sight and proclaim myself king... (presuming that was in line with my principles and my army had the ability), then what next?

Would I be able to win the hearts of my fellow country man and unite them in the face of threats in the likes of foreign invasions? Would I have enough time to establish internal stability before a foreign incursion occur? Would I or my soldiers have the political astuteness to implement immediate reforms to ensure peace before the next battle engagement?

No, no, no. You're doing it all wrong.
You should continue to pursue the original objective of crushing the Jurchens and liberating the north. This is what I meant by not letting the blood shed by your comrades go to waste.

And if the emperor then publicly proclaims you as a traitor, denounce it as an evil ploy by the appeasement faction who were responsible for the loss of Kaifeng in the first place.

Don't be the first to act against the establishment, let them make the first move ... or in this case ... mistake.

There were many military commanders who were seething under the restraining leash of the cowards occupying the formal positions of authority.

Many patriotic officers were eager to drive the Jurchens off the Central Plains, but they were not given the chance.

If the emperor actually dared to despatch a military force against you, then parley with them and see how many would turn to side with you if you show them you were fighting the Jurchens instead of planning a coup - see what happened when King Louis XVIII sent the Fifth Regiment against Napoleon after his escape from Elba.

It just takes someone of your stature to rouse the people and tell them it was imperative to avoid a repetition of Jing Kang's humiliation.

Would Yue Fei have reconqured the northern land from the Jurchens if he wasn't recalled back to Hangzhou?

Not by his own army which I think lacked the necessary manpower.
If he began requisition of the supplies from defeated enemy and expand his army significantly, he runs into real risk of being seen as a separatist.
However, I believed his army had a good chance of dealing devastating blows to the Jurchens sufficiently to force them retreat northwards, liberating territories too vast to be ignored.

With these successes, it was a chance to call on other commanders and the Imperial Court to pursue the full recovery of the lost territories. It becomes like an ultimatum - the Court would risk losing its support and influence if it chose to surrender these lands back to the Jurchens.

In war, the primary battlefield is psychological.

HanYuPinYinically, the character 桧 is pronounced the same way as 会(Hui), however, english translation for 桧 varies in different places.

I would prefer to stay with PinYin, so Hui, QinHui .

does this answer your question?

Thanks. I actually already found the answer myself in a later post:

Ｊｕｓｔ　ａ　ｓｉｄｅ　ｎｏｔｅ，　Ｉ　ｒｅｃｅｎｔｌｙ　ｗａｓ　ｉｎ　Ｂｅｉｊｉｎｇ＇ｓ　Ｓｕｍｍｅｒ　Ｐａｌａｃｅ．　I have always enjoyed tｈｅ　长廊 (Long Corridor) and pay close attention there. This time, I noticed that the painting of 岳飞 getting tattooed by his mother is up there twice.

If things were that easy my friend. You flatter me.
I wasn't a "hero" back then as the status accorded to me now in the eyes of many.

I could fight the enemy but wouldn't last without logistic support from the court.
Where would I go after being branded as a traitor? I cannot crush the enemy and can only hold them for some time. Perhaps I could let the Jurchens throuigh... hmmm and in centuries to come, life for Wu Sangui will be easier...

Parley with the court? Those up there knows nuts about what's going on in the frontier. They don't give 2 cents worth so long as they are happily insulated by their palace walls. So much for denouncing evil factions.

In as much loyal officials, there are many self-gratifying officials. Spies abound, leeches everywhere, lackeys aplenty. Disunity everywhere even within the troops. How else (would you think) we're losing ground? Because we Hans can't outfight them Jurchens?

Another point my friend, on hindsight, I could have been politically wiser to the emperor's motives. He didn't really want to regain lost land. If I hadn't been so gungho in the war, I may have lived longer.

People wore masks.

Finally, those were perilous times. You never know who are your friends during perilous times. You never know.

Yue Fei is my favourite Chinese general!!

One could look at it from many different perspective on this matter.

Yue Fei, Hang shi Zhong and a couple of other generals at that time controlled the vast vast majority of the Sung's force.. by vast majority i'm talking about over 80-90%.

And this control is quiet personal, these troop took the orders from these generals ahead of that of others.. including the emperor.

This was obviously a result of neccesity after the fall of the Northern court, the Sung court had neither the luxury nor the capability of enforcing control over it's military leader, the result is quiet simliar to what we seen at the end of the Han dynasty, various generals lead big armies that was only under the Sung banner in name, while realistically it was a private army to those generals.

Luckily for the Sung court, two of the greatest of such generals, Yue Fei and Han Shi Zhong, also turned out to be loyal men with little ambition for the throne, but if they allowed this situation to manifest any longer, surely sooner or later these generals or their heirs would figure, hey let's just take the throne for myself.

The lack of control over these men was a incredible threat to the existance of the court, the Sung's early attempt in reincorperating these troops back into central control (by targeting less competent and influential commanders) resulted in one case 10s of thousands of men defecting to the puppet Chi state. a major disastor for the Sung court by any measurement.

There were also other cases that seriously worried the Sung court about the action of even loyal and competent generals like Yue and Han, Han tried to ambush Jin emmisaries and break up the peace talk by force, while Yue disobeyed order several times upfront, and then he appointed he's own commanders when the Sung court wanted to move him into the central government, from a central government perspective, these were highly dangerous possibilities.

From what i've read it would seem that Qin and Gao Zhong's original target was acturally going after Han Shi Zhong, whom commanded even more troops than Yue, was older and held more political sway, but Yue came out and defended Han in several cases, which ended up becomming Han's scape goat.

One could always look at the What Ifs of history, truth be told, if Cao Pi didn't dispose Han Tian Di, would we still consider Cao Cao to be a villian or the saviour of the Han court? if we look at other simliar historical examples, Liu Yu's march north to retake the capital did succeed to some extend, but he just ended up going back and despose of the Jin emperor.... the Sung's own founder was viewed as the Later Zhou's last defender.... only to despose of the emperor whom he sworn to protect....... with history already being done, obviously today we would think Yue as a tragic hero... but in the what ifs of him retaking the north... how truely unlikely was it for him to just despose of the Sung court and crown himself?????