I heard that gunpowder was invented during the late Tang dynasty and first used as weapons in the form of 'explosives firing catapult"..

Does anyone know when Cannons were first invented in China and when it was used in battle?

It seems that Ming had a great emphasis on firearms and even imported cannons from Europe.

I think the Europeans acutally started the first modern firearms and cannons and eventually started to sell them to China.

Explosive firing catapult sounds an awfull alot like a treb (sorry do not know the full name) All those who played age of empiers will know what I mean.

The Chinese made the first firearms, cannons and explosive grenades. The Europeans just improved upon them in the 16th-19th centuries.

The earliest gunpowder weapons we know of in world history were used in the 11th century by the Song dynasty. The first kind of "firearm" was literally a spear that also doubled as a flamethrower, with a tube of gunpowder tied close to the blade that could be ignited when the enemy approached. It was called the "firespear" (火枪 huoqiang), and that's why guns are still called qiang 枪 in China today, the same word as "spear". In 1259 in the Southern Song, the first true gun was also invented - a bamboo tube firing a single pellet that was called the 突火枪 tuhuoqiang ("fire-shooting spear"). The Song also had a very wide variety of explosive bombs and mines that could be thrown, laid in the ground, or launched from trebuchets.

The oldest extant cannon that we have is a bronze cannon from the Yuan dynasty, with an inscription dated 1332. It is 35.3cm long, with a calibre of 10.5cm and a weight of 6.94kg. The inscription also tells us that it was cannon number 300 in its frontier guard unit, showing that such cannons were manufactured and deployed in large numbers. The muzzle of the cannon is flared out in a bowl shape, which is characteristic of cannons from the late Yuan to the early Ming (see the pictures at
http://202.102.202.102/qt/new_page_450.htm
http://www.yzls.net/zglstp/Zs084362.jpg and http://www.yzls.net/zglstp/Zs093400.jpg )

Until recently, the oldest extant metal handgun was a Yuan dynasty bronze handgun (火铳 huochong) with an inscription dated 1351. It is 43.5cm long (longer than the cannon!), including a 14.6cm long stock, with a calibre of 3cm. The range of the gun is estimated to be about 180m. Because of its length, it was often operated on a stand by two men, with one man steadying the stand while the other ignited the fuse leading to the gunpowder chamber.

However, in June this year, a collector in Ningxia province revealed a handgun with an inscription dated 1271, during the reign of Khubilai Khan and five years before the Mongol conquest of the Southern Song. It is 34.6cm long, with a calibre of 2.6cm, and shaped like an elongated vase. The report (in Chinese) is here: http://tech.enorth.com.cn/system/2004/06/09/000799394.shtml

During the civil wars and rebellions at the end of the Yuan dynasty, trebuchets and cannons were used together because of the relatively small calibre of cannons, which still made them less effective against city walls. In the Ming dynasty, large iron cannons began to be produced, while wooden and bamboo cannons could also be improvised. The uses of cannons broadened from siege warfare and city defence to also include naval warfare and field deployment. Wheeled carriages for cannons also began to be used for the first time.

During the Ming dynasty, as GZ has mentioned, large humbers of cannon were also imported from Europe, and were known as 佛朗机 folangji ("Frankish Machines") and 红夷炮 hongyipao ("Red-haired Barbarian Cannons"). Most of these were from Portugal and Holland, and had superior range, calibre and durability compared to Chinese cannons. But the Chinese quickly learned how to copy these cannons, and began making their own, although they continued to call them "Frankish Machines" and "Red-haired Barbarian Cannons". These types of cannon were the main artillery of Chinese armies until well into the Qing dynasty.

During the Ming dynasty, rocket launchers were also invented. The earliest rockets were first used in the Southern Song, and were called fire-arrows (huojian 火箭), and that remains the Chinese term for rockets (even the ones that land on the moon). These rockets were, like the fire-spears, arrows with tubes of gunpowder tied to them to allow them to fly on their own power. Throughout the Ming dynasty, launchers with large numbers of these rockets were used in field combat, but by the early Qing, with the introduction of more efficient handguns (arquebuses), the rockets became largely redundant. A picture of a fire-arrow rocket: http://www.yzls.net/zglstp/Zs075324.jpg

Once agian thank you for the great info Yun.

Some of you may have heard of the Jingal (Taiqiang 抬枪), a large-calibre gun mounted on a stand or fired resting on a soldier's shoulder. It was a weapon unique to China, and used widely in Qing dynasty armies up to the late 19th century.

lol, i pity the man whose back was used as the gunrest.

yes, and noticed he has one finger in his ear, at least he'll only be half-deaf.

But regarding fire-arms, I think the hand grenades are the most under-rated weapons. I think they were called roughly "heaven shaking thunder". The ones made of either porcelain or clay, and filled with gunpowder and metal scraps, with a fuse. When exploded the broken piecces of clay or porcelain and scraps are scattered everywhere as shrapnel, maiming anything in its repectable radius. Imagine in pitch battles when an army is in formation, when they charge, grenadiers can simply lob grenades into their ranks and force them to break, and let the melee troops slaughtered the disorganized army.

I saw on a web site that China's earliest gunpowder weapon is the firelance(firespear), any infomation about the battles that use the firelance?

Also I heard that when the Jin dynasty fall, large number of gunpower weapon were taken over by the Mongols and use in the invasion of Europe.

Type98G, here's a good example of the use of fire-lances against the Mongols by the Jin, from an earlier thread on this board:

In 1233, after Wanyan Shouxu (the Jin emperor Aizong) had abandoned Kaifeng and failed to raise a new army for himself in Hebei, he returned to Henan and established his base in Gui'de 归德 (present-day Anyang). Scattered Jin armies began to gather at Gui'de from the surrounding region and Hebei, and the supplies in the city could no longer feed all these soldiers. Thus Wanyan Shouxu left only 450 Han Chinese troops (Zhongxiao Jun 忠孝军) under Commander in Chief Pucha Guannu 蒲察官奴 and 280 men under Commander Ma Yong 马用 to guard the city, and dispersed the rest of the troops to forage in Su 宿 (in Anhui), Xu 徐 (modern Xuzhou in Jiangsu), and Chen 陈 (modern Huaiyang in Henan).

Pucha Guannu then launched a coup with his troops, killing Ma Yong and more than 300 other courtiers, as well as about 3,000 officers, palace guards and civilians who refused to cooperate with him. He made the emperor his puppet and became the real master of the imperial court. At this point the Mongols had arrived outside Gui'de and were preparing to besiege the city. The Mongol general Sajisibuhua 撒吉思卜华 had set up camp north of the city, on the bank of a river. Guannu then led his 450 troops out on boats from the southern gate at night, armed with fire-lances (huoqiang 火枪). They rowed along the river by the eastern side of the city, reaching the Mongol camp early in the morning. Wanyan Shouxu watched the battle from the northern gate of the city, with his imperial boat prepared for him to flee to Xuzhou if the Jin troops were defeated.

The Jin troops assaulted the Mongol camp from two directions, using their fire-lances to throw the Mongols into a panic. More than 3,500 Mongols drowned in the river while trying to flee, and the Mongol stockades were all burned to the ground. Sajisibuhua was also killed in the battle. Guannu had achieved a remarkable victory and was promoted by the emperor (who after all was under his control). But Gui'de was not defensible in the long term, and the other courtiers urged the emperor to move to Caizhou, which had stronger walls and more provisions and troops. Pucha Guannu opposed the move, afraid that his power base would be weakened and arguing that Caizhou's advantages had been overstated.

Three months later, Wanyan Shouxu used a plot to assassinate Guannu, and then quickly began preparations to move to Caizhou. By the time new reports reached him that Caizhou was still too weak in defences, troops and supplies, he was already on the way there. The fate of the Jin dynasty was then sealed for good, despite the earlier victory against great odds at Gui'de.

Thank you for the info Yun :)

http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi242.htm



http://www.archaeology.org/0301/etc/kamikaze.html

The world's oldest picture of a gun and grenade in use is from a 10th century painted silk banner found at Dunhuang of Mara the Temptress and her demons attacking the meditating Buddha. One demon holds a proto-gun (fire-lance) while other, a bomb.

The earliest handgun I believe is dated to 1288.

A handcannon dated to 1368 is with the Royal Artillery Institution, Woolwich, UK.

:-)

Jieming
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DragonSeedLegacy

Hey Liang, do you happen to have a picture of that 10th century silk gun/grenade?

Yes its a picture of the Tang general who finally drove the Tubo out of Dong Huang and restored it to Tang rule.

Warhead, are you referring to Zhang Yichao? We had a thread on him, which is now in the Tang dynasty board. I'm aware that there is a famous mural in Dunhuang depicting him in a grand procession, but had not heard it had anything to do with the depiction of the bombard. Here's some info on it: http://www.textile-art.com/dun/cave156.html

I've seen the picture of the Dunhuang silk banner depicting the fire-lance and the bomb being used by the demons of Mara. It's reproduced in the book "The Genius of China", and dated to "no later than 950". There is no mention of Zhang Yichao in connection with this banner.

Do note, however, that the carved bas relief mentioned in this passage (quoted earlier by DaMo) is not the same as the Dunhuang one:



This depiction is in Sichuan, not Dunhuang, and is dated to around 1128 (right after the fall of the Northern Song), not 950. The gun here is not a fire-lance, but a bombard, which is a kind of wide-bored cannon that launches a spear or arrow. There is a picture of a relief in "The Genius of China" that might be it, but I'm not sure because Robert Temple didn't give enough details.

Yeah I do. I don't know how to post pictures here and I can't seem to see the pictures you guys keep refering to in the post either. You'll have to let me know how to post pictures. Meanwhile, I have it on my yahoo group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DragonSeedLegacy if you want to see it. Its a picture of Buddha being attacked by demons. ;-)

Jieming
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DragonSeedLegacy

Took me awhile but here it is.



Jieming
DragonSeedLegacy

Demons with guns, how cool is that?

So that thing launches 'arrows'? I've seen pictures of the european version before, it's like an iron tube on a staff.
Kinda like the guns used in Princess Mononoke
but those shot iron balls, not sharpened bolts.

The Chinese had roughly 4 types of fire-lances, the arrow firing, the metal balls blasting, the rocket throwing and the fire spitting lance for close combat. Sometimes the gunpowder firing part was just added to a normal spear and still used like a spear but allowing the soldier to trigger a single explosion in the face of the enemy! I have a picture of some of these. I'll post them when I get the time to scan them into my computer. :-)

Jieming
DragonSeedLegacy

The flame throwing variety, was it an infantry only weapon?

Ya I think so. I don't think they were terribly useful as they were limited in range and shot. And Chinese gunpowder lacked the big bang of the western gunpowder because of a poor saltpeter mix. Europe had more saltpeter than China did.

Jieming
DragonSeedLegacy

As I (imperfectly) understand things early European cannon were either cast in bronze, or built up out of wrought iron using welding and reinforcing bands etc. until the English learned how to cast iron cannon in 1553. I also understand that China had the world best iron smelting in medieval times and made cannon earlier than the early 1300s, when they appeared in Europe. How were early Chinese cannon made, were they cast iron centuries before the English, or the other 2 methods? I've read that Chinese gunpowder is less potent than European due to a lack of saltpetre. Why does China have less saltpetre, why couldn't it get more?

The earliest chinese cannon was dated from the Yuan period (14th century).. . it's made of Bronze..I'll try to find the picture for that ...

I remember seeing a painting of a Qing military campaign against the Dzungars. On the left of the painting, there was a formation of camels, all had cannons loaded on their back (humps). Very interesting. The cannons were not very big, and I am not sure how effective they were.

The above shows the Yuan cannon in 1332, made of bronze and is the earliest cannon sofar that's found in China and is also the world's earliest cannon.This primitive cannon's length is 35.3cm, turret size diameter is 10.5 cm, and weighs 6.94kg. In order to prevent the explosion from damaging the body of cannon, this cannon has the structure that is able to release multi-exhaust gase.

This Bronze cannon was inscribed with "the third year reign of Yuan zhi Sun" and was constructed in 1332. It was understood that near Yuan's border, some 300 such cannon were deployed indicating that Yuan was able to manufacture these cannon and used in battles.

Early Ming's cannon was also based on such bronze structure. During the battle of Pingjiang (1366-1367) against Yuan , this cannon was used by the Ming. During the siege, the Ming utilized 240 trebuchet, 2740 "Qixiao" hand cannon, 2400 cannons.

Here are some information on chinese gunpowder and its military use from
http://www.silk-road.com/artl/gun.shtml

Gunpower
Along with the silk and paper, gunpowder is another invention by Chinese and the Silk Road helped it spread to the west. The dating of gunpowder is as early as 850 A.D. This invention seems to have been discovered in China by accident - by alchemists seeking the elixir of immortality. This earliest account reported the experiment: "some have heated together the saltpeter, sulfure and carbon of charcoal with honey; smoke and flames result, so that their hands and faces have been burnt, and even the whole house burnt down."

The gunpowder used for military purpose was first recorded in 919 A.D. By the 11th century, explosive bombs filled with gunpowder and fired from catapults were introduced and used in China. The words "fire cannon", "rocket", "missile" and "fireball" appeared time and again in the official Song history as well as two other books written during the same period. The first detailed description of using "firing cannon" in warfare was in connection with a battle fought in 1126 when the Song army used it against the invading Nuchens. The so-called fire cannon was a tube made of bamboo filled with gunpowder which, when fired, threw a flaming missile towards the enemy. Since the barrel was made of bamboo, the flying missile could not cover a long distance. According to a description of a battle scene in 1132, it took two persons to carry a "fire cannon", and the cannons were fired from a moving platform after it had been moved close to the wall of the besieged city.

The Chinese invention of gunpowder never went much beyond its crudest form, and it was abandoned as a military weapon shortly afterwards. It reached Japan, Islam and then Europe in the 13th century and the Arabs improved gunpowder for military use. In 1280, the Syrian al-Hasan ar-Rammah wrote the Book of Fighting on Horseback and with War Engines. Herein introduced a rocket device, which he called "Chinese arrow." The early account of gunpowder in Europe was recorded by English philosopher Roger Bacon in the 13th century. One century later the Arabs used it to attack the Spanish town Baza and the very next year in 1326 Florence ordered the manufacturing of cannon and cannon balls. From Italy the making of gunpowder soon spread to other European countries, and by the 1350s it had become an effective weapon on the battlefield.

Origin of Gun
The Chinese adapted their primitive catapults to eventually develop a true gun with a metal barrel, gunpowder and a projectile by the 12th century. It is believed that the first gun was found in the early 1970s at Pan-la-ch'eng-tzu village, Manchuria, and dated to around 1290 A.D.

From http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/War/Cannon.html,


Chinese cannon dated 1368

1. Development of Weapons from Fireworks

The earliest earliest recorded mention of "fire-powder" (for "fireworks") comes from China late in the third century B.C. Bamboo tubes filled with saltpeter, sulfur and charcoal were tossed into fires during religious festivals in hopes the noise of the explosion would frighten evil spirits.

It's probable that some of these bamboo tubes were not sealed well and, instead of bursting with an explosion, simply went shooting out of the fire. Some clever observer may have then begun experiments to deliberately produce the same effect as the bamboo tubes which leaked fire to make a "rocket".

Certainly by the year 1045 A.D. the use of gunpowder and rockets formed an important part of Chinese military tactics.

In 1132, fire lances are mentioned in historical records, in 1221, cast iron bombs, and in 1259, bamboo tubes containing powder and clay pellets.

2. Cannons and Guns

True gunpowder only appeared in China in the Mongol period (1260-1368) and a cannon dated 1332 was found.

The rocket seems to have arrived in Europe around 1241 A.D. Rocket-like weapons were being used by the Mongols against Magyar forces in the battle of Sejo. These weapons were captured and copied for European armies. Accounts also describe Mongol's use of a noxious (terrible smelling) smoke screen -- possibly the first use of chemical warfare.

Rockets appear in Arab literature in 1258 A.D., describing Mongol invaders' use of them to capture the city of Baghdad. Quick to learn, the Arabs adopted the rocket into their own arms inventory and, during the Seventh Crusade, used them against the French Army of King Louis IX in 1268.

(The bronze cannon above was recovered with five more from a shipwreck in China last year)

From http://bronzecannon.tripod.com/chinese_cannons.htm


" The coat of arms and eulogy inscribed in Han characters and filled with gold and silver.
by Vu Toan

On the evening of August 15, 2003, while catching oysters at the depth of 30m, about 36 nautical miles (57.6km) away from the mouth of the Nhuong River in Ha Tinh Province, divers touched something very hard.

Looking at it carefully, they determined it was an incense burner. News of the discovery quickly spread to other boats. About 30 divers plunged into the sea to recover the bronze objects.

After 17 days of hard work under heavy seas, the divers lifted three cannons with the help of a crane on a 45-tonne ship. Six of them became unconscious during the work in the deep sea but they recovered.

Countless antique hunters have flocked to the village of Cam Linh in Cam Xuyen District since the discovery of the cannons and other artifacts. The divers gave one of the cannons to the owner of the ship for his service. Police seized the cannon before it reached the Viet Nam-Chinese border. The other two are in the gardens of Pham Tien Phuong and Tran Trong Thuong, two other ship owners.

The cannons are 2.43m long and weigh 1.4 tones each. The barrel is 40cm in diameter, while the diameter of the bore is 22cm. A large copper band covering the barrel is adorned with silver patterns. There is an inscription in Han Chinese characters at one end of the guns that states, "The second year under the reign by King Minh Mang."

"Minh Mang’s the second year of reign indicates the year 1821, after King Minh Mang, the second sovereign of the last feudal dynasty of Viet Nam, ascended to the throne," said Nguyen Tri Son, vice-director of the Ha Tinh Museum. "These cannons may have been made in China by order of the king. They went down with the ship during its voyage home."

Divers also found three large and 11 small incense burners and a tea pot. The heaviest weighed about 10kg. Delicate dragon heads, the symbol of royal power, are engraved on all of the incense burners as well as the lid and handle of the pot.

The cannons have been lying in the gardens of the ship owners for more than two months. Responsible organizations have done nothing about the wreck and the finds since they were discovered.

A diver, whose name was withheld, said the wreck was about 30m long and 4m wide. A thin layer of copper covered the hull. Local antique hunters frequently visited the ship. They might hide artifacts they find in another area marked on their charts, retrieving them when the opportunity arises. — VNS "

Unique - Triple Barrel Chinese Hand/Pole Cannon!

A Fantastic and unique iron Chinese Handgonne Pole cannon in pristine condition! This rare find is 13.75 inches long (35 cm). The weight is 6 lbs. and the bore sizes are 17/18 mm. This cannon was in use for 3 - 400 years as it was refitted in the distant past for use with percussion caps! Originally these were fired by inserting a red hot wire in the touch hole and were called a "San Yan Tong"!

Is it just me of does that look like a pig's snout?

It seems that cannon appeared in the early 1300s already developed. I've seen suggestions that a Chinese carving from 1127 (?) shows a 'demon' holding a cannon. Europeans used bell casters to amke cannons, did the chinese use the same methods?

Lol, it reminds me of Gatling gun.

well..... the cannon can't spin and fire like gatling gun...

Re my earlier write-up above, I have just read a book by the Chinese expert on the history of early firearms, Liu Xu, that argues rather convincingly that the fire-lance was not a spear with a tube or ball of gunpowder tied to it, but rather a hollow bamboo tube with gunpowder stuffed in it. The gunpowder was ignited and the tube was then used as a flamethrower. It was said to have been invented in 1132 by Chen Gui, the prefect of De'an, for the defence of the city against the Jurchens. Chen Gui had more than 20 fire-lances made, each of which was held by two men. They were used to set fire to the mobile siege ladder that the Jurchens were using. As early as the 1940s, the scholar of firearms history Feng Jiashen was already theorising that the fire-lance was a hollow bamboo tube with gunpowder inside. However, in the West the image of the fire-lance seems to be that of the spear with a gunpowder tube tied next to the blade. In Turnbull's book on Siege Weapons of the Far East, there is a plate of the De'an siege, in which the fire-lances are depicted as spears with gunpowder tubes tied to them. I would welcome your opinions on this.

Liu Xu also dismisses the two main pieces of evidence for the use of tube gunpowder weapons before 1132. These have been mentioned in this thread previously: the Dunhuang silk banner dated to 950 by Needham, and showing a fire-lance,



and the 1128 Dazu Buddhist grotto where Needham in 1986 found the relief carving of a god bearing what looks like a bombard-type cannon.



Liu doubts the dating of the banner to 950, because there is still no mention of tube gunpowder weapons in the Wujing Zongyao of 1044. Furthermore, there seems to be metal pellets and porcelain shards being fired from the fire-lance on the banner, according to Needham, but Liu Xu argues that it was not until 1259 that the first pellet-firing handguns (tuhuoqiang) were used at Shouchun. As for the 1128 Dazu relief, Liu Xu identifies the 'bombard' as actually a bellows being carried by the wind god.

The 1259 Tuhuoqiang:

In response to GZs last picture, the three barreled gun- I believe that that was known as the "Kuai Qiang", "fast gun". But General Qi Jiguang disliked it, and disliked that the soldiers of the Northern Border had it as their preferred firearm.

Additional note: It seems that the identification of the 1132 De'an fire-lances (of which no contemporary depiction exists) as spears with flamethrowing tubes was influenced by the pictures in the Ming military manual Wubei Zhi of the Lihua Qiang (Pear-flower Spear), which is indeed a normal spear with such a tube tied to it. Many Chinese writers, and also Turnbull and Needham, simply regard 'Lihua Qiang' as a later name for the Huoqiang, and consider them to have been the same thing. But the Wubei Zhi actually mentions a man named Li Quan who was a warlord in Shandong for 20 years in the Song dynasty through the use of the Lihua Qiang. Whether this story is true, and thus provides evidence of the existence of the Lihua Qiang in the Song dynasty, will require more research to ascertain.

Also, the 'Huoqiang' described in the Wubei Zhi is also a spear weapon with gunpowder tube - except that it has an additional pair of side blades and two gunpowder tubes, to be ignited one after the other for longer-lasting effect. This is an example of how the same name can be used in different periods of Chinese history for quite different weapons.

The Wubei Zhi Huoqiang:



The Wubei Zhi Lihua Qiang:



One can find Chinese books or websites that describe the first fire-lances in 1132 as bamboo tubes with gunpowder inside, and also books or websites that describe them as spears with a gunpowder tube, like the Lihua Qiang. Which description do you find to be more likely?

Which dynasty country started including soldiers with firearms?

define firearms.

Fire arrows?
Fire lances?
Rockets?
Bombs?
Flamethrowers?
Eruptors?
Arquebus?
Guns?
Cannon?

Use of primitive firearms began during the Song dynasty and continued thru the Yuan. But I'd say it wasn't until the Ming dynasty that firearms became a regular part of military arsenals.

I mean like cannons and "Greek Fire" and very very rifles.

"Greek Fire" was used fairly early on, in the 10th century. Probably spread from the Byzantine Empire, though I'm not sure how since the formula was supposed to be a secret.

Cannons were probably first used in the 14th century. Simple handguns and rockets are first recorded in the 13th century. The firelance, a kind of flamethrower using gunpowder, was used in the 12th century.

I am merging this with an older thread of ours that gives all the answers you need.

The source of confusion is that 'Greek Fire' is used in the literature both as a generic term and as a special term. Thus, we read already in contemporary sources the Muslims using Greek Fire against the Crusaders who repelled likewise with Greek Fire. These were probably other incendiary mixtures. The secret of the real Greek Fire probably got later lost, as its formula was kept too confined in the capital.

Hello all.

I am wondering if anyone has pictures of the early stick-mounted firearms. This particular thread reflects an area of great interest to me.

I tend to find Calvert's Gunpowder and Cannons website to be very useful in regard to the history of the invention of gunpowder (as apposed to mixtures of saltpeter, charcoal and sulphur and other stuff that would burn or act as an incendiary) and cannon.

Given the enormous impact that firearms (cannon and small arms) had on warfare, I tend to be skeptical of claims of Chinese priority in the invention of these specific things. Claims of Chinese priority in other areas are well documented and attested to (eg, the discovery of saltpeter, high quality steel making, bronze, paper making, and so forth), and we can see the effect that the invention of these things had on Chinese civilization and the effects on other civilizations when they were transmitted to the West and elsewhere. Likewise, we can see the alacrity with which the Ming used cannon they purchased from the West and the spread of the steam train and steam engines in China as well.

However, if you have good quality documentation that attests to Chinese priority in this area I am happy to look at it.

Calvert's site claims:



This is clearly mistaken. The Chinese used cannons and handguns during the period of Mongol rule, as seen from surviving late-13th and early-14th century examples. However, Chinese cannons and handguns did not undergo the same rapid improvements that European and Turkish ones did in the 1400s and 1500s, for various reasons - the most important one probably being that the Ming Empire mostly waged war with the Mongols and the hill tribes of southwestern China, neither of whom was equipped with firearms. When Ming armies began clashing with arquebus-armed pirates and culverin-armed Portuguese warships in the early 1500s, however, they quickly began arming their own forces with these weapons.



The problem here is that cannon appear in Europe and in China at about the same time, i.e. the early 1300s. The point of origin and direction of the spread of cannon technology are difficult to establish in the absence of textual evidence, but the likelihood that the Mongol Empire played a major role in the spread is very high. The recently discovered Chinese/Mongol handgun of 1271 (mentioned earlier in this thread) seems to indicate that hand cannons were found in China not long after they are first attested in Egypt in 1260, even if one discounts (as some have) Joseph Needham's dating of a Chinese sculpture with a 'hand cannon' to the 1100s or doubts the identification of the object depicted as a 'hand cannon'.

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gunpowder

Calvert's site makes quite a few claims which are not substantiated. He hasn't listed any non-European sources and some of his claims like the story of Roman soldiers captured and sold into China have long since been disproved.

Read the chapters on guns and gunpowder here for a more balanced view;

Chinese Siege Warfare - Mechanical Artillery & Siege Weapons of Antiquity

One simply has to walk in the British Artillery Museum to view Chinese cannons and handguns dating from the 1300s.

This is the sort of crap I would expect from white supremacists. If it has been disproved, cite the articles that did so.



I went and looked that book and it is far from balanced and certainly not a scholarly treatment of the subject. It looks like propaganda to me, full of pictured designed for the easily fooled. While there is a bibliography, there are no specific cites in the material to books or articles and so forth.



That statement is the mark of a lazy person. I looked at this site Firepower Royal Artillery Museum Research Section and it says:



To establish that things were created in the 1200s takes quite a bit of evidence.

I remain to be convinced.

Back up your statements. Please explain what about it looks like propaganda and why.

Thanks

I would consider this a rather serious accusation to make of someone, and potentially even an offensive flame. Consider this a verbal warning; you would be ill-advised to continue such a character assault. I would also argue that the comparison to white supremacists saying "It's not true, they use only Jewish sources" is also not applicable. This is bias used by racists with increasingly untenable ground to debunk anything that doesn't agree with them. However, Jieming's critique that Calvert's sourcing is too Eurocentric is a legitimate concern in academia, as it renders one's research susceptible to imbalance.



What about the writing makes it sound like propaganda? I was never under the impression that that Mr. Liang was pushing any sort of political agenda within his text (though feel free to quote his subliminal agenda). And how are the pictures designed for "the easily fooled"? There are some of his own illustrations, that is true, but these do not make up a majority. The majority of illustrations came from well known military manuals such as the Wu Jing Zong Yao (dating to 1044 and showing early firearms) of the Song dynasty and the Wu Bei Zhi of the Ming dynasty. I do not see how either of these manuals are somehow fakes to deceive people, and to believe that somehow these sources are not necessary to the research on firearms history displays a certain sort of Eurocentric chauvinism. Also, are you really sure it is courteous to lambast a book before the eyes of its author in such a manner?




The 1200s are the 13th century, no? Anyways, I believe that there have been excavations of early guns in China dating to the 1200s.