What? How do you know what Nurhaci looked like??

From that painting that somebody posted earlier in this thread.

Hardly accurate.

If i'm not mistaken the gene marker is actually from Giocangga, Nurhaci's grandfather. Furthermore it would be a mistake only the descendants of Giocangga has the only Manchu's.

Well, Manchus generally look like that. Long and bridged nose, generally deep eye sockets wibth small eyes and no fold. I have a lot of full blood bannermen (royalties related to Nuerhaci's family) relatives and they all have such characteristics. If you're going to insist that Nurhaci was blonde and blue eyed then nobody can stop you. My in law just looks exactly like that portrait of Nuerhaci. Genghis Khan hardly looks like common Chinese paintings of him too. He didn't look like some old Chinyese guy. I dony'tb knyow whatb you're trying to say here but whatever.

First no one is saying that Manchu have blond hair and blue eyes but rather objectively comparing a face from a portrait and one who is in front of you is impossible. Furthermore that picture of Nurhaci was painted sometime after his death(the contrasting blue lining was not used in Manchu clothing at his time) so the painter probably relied on an older painting or even description of him in text. Furthermore those are ancestorial portraits used for worship and the images may not representative of the person face, but rather of what they should look like.

^Nobody's trying to white wash Manchus. I was merely being sarcastic about the blonde hair and blue eyes bit. I pointed out that my Manchurian relatives had characteristics of big eye sockets, small eyes, high bridged nose and long face. It's obvious from the paintings of Manchurian emperors that such characteristics are present on their faces. Perhaps not the absolute exact, but I think it's safe to say that those characteristics are fairly common within the Manchurian population. If I had pictures of my great uncle I'd post it.

The paintings of Manchurian emperors are usually done in their life times, not after death I believe. That popular painting of Genghis Khan was a depiction of him years after his death by a Chinese artist. It can hardly be called "accurate." Some versions of that painting has him with bluish grey eyes which I think is just absurd. As much as he looks like a kind old man, he was described by even his own kinsmen as looking brutal and relentless. I wonder why that painting failed to capture that. Oh wait, it was done years and years after his death so no one really had a recollection of what he really looked like.

yeah sure, this manchu woman has such white features. she looks so different from other chinese

Manchus do have a distinct look (used to anyways). But living among Han Chinese and changed lifestyle made them change to look more like Han Chinese. I also find that a lot of Indonesian Chinese (Chinese people who have lived in Indonesia for generations) tend to look different than what we consider "Chinese looking." They have more of a Southeast Asian look.

Manchus don't look Caucasian. I was merely being sarcastic. Sheesh. >_>

^It's the diet and climate. Manchus, like Mongols and other nomadic tribes used to eat strictly meats, but once they became used to the Chinese culture, they started to consume rice and vegetables more. That can do a lot to one's growth. Inland China e.g. Beijing is much warmer than where the Manchus came from originally, which was basically arctic in climate. Plus, it's without doubt that they mixed with Chinese so gradually they start to look no different from Han Chinese. Few nowadays actually stain retain that original Manchu look.

Thats only because northern Han Chinese mixed alot with Mongolic/Tungusic peoples previously. Manchu has mixed alot with northern Han Chinese with give people the impression that Manchu originally looked similar to Han Chinese.

Modern day Manchu have looks that are more similar to Northern Han as intermixing and assimilation is very common. Likewise, Northern Han have incorporated lots of Mongolic, Tungusic blood through many many centuries of intermixing since the Warring States period.

And there is also another article that says that the distance of Caucasian to North Chinese is much larger than North to South Chinese.

I agree with suren over some of his points. I am talking about the pure or original Manchurian here and not the intermixed offsprings.

I doubt some of the photos given by dearcool are pure manchus, they could be han-manchu mix. Only the 3rd photo (martial artist) look like manchu, the rest look sinitic Mongoloid.

The manchurians belong to the tungusic Mongoloid which is the same race as the Mongols.

The features of tungus people are smallest eyes and very fair skin. The small eyes is to protect them from the extreme cold in the north. And the lack of sun doesn't produce much melanin.

As you go from north to south east asia, the eyes get bigger and the skin gets darker.

Tungus (manchu, mongols) - small eyes, very fair skin
Sinitic (han chinese, tibetan, tai-kadai) - medium eyes, fair skin
South Mongoloid (malay, philipino, indonesians) - large eyes, brown skin

Where is the manchu's homeland ? Is it in inner manchuria or outer manchuria ?

Outer manchuria (AND even inner manchuria's heilongjiang) is well known for its very cold weather. Whereas the han chinese homeland is in the yellow river which has milder weather.

she

related but not the same.


Mongols are NOT tungusic. Malays aren't Mongoloid period, they are Austronesian.

There's also no such thing as a Tungusic subcategory in terms of racial features, it is something made up by German pseudo anthropologists. Tungusic is a linguistical term. However those who speak Tungusic languages.. Evenki, Manchu, etc do not exactly look each other. You can easily see this in pictures of say Evens or western Evenki and Manchus, all three of whom are Tungusic.

Mongols are Altaic speaking people. Manchus, are Tungusic speaking people but they have similar origins. Both lived (used to anyways) and originated from subarctic climates. Evolution plays a role in determining one's looks. High cheekbones, lack of sun causes decrease in melanin production which determines. Jurchens are the ancestors of Manchus and ever since they've established a dynasty in China which is much more southern than where they originally came from, they've since physiologically adapted to warmer climates and gradually lost a lot of their original features. Close to 900 years or so, since leaving their original homeland from around Northeast Mongolia and surrounding area. I think 900 some years can change looks.

Since Manchus' are few in numbers, we can take a look at their cousins who still dwell in that general area in far northeast China. Their language and Manchurian are mutually understandable with minor differences. Perhaps it's similar like Polish and Czechslovakian.

Nanai



Oroqin


Evenki



Last but not least, Manchus



[img]http://www.e56.com.cn/system_file/minority/manzu/fengsu.files/man.jpg[/img]
Like Mongols, Manchus are very good with eagles. Travelers from all over China come to see Manchu hunters showcasing their eagles.
[img]http://img04.21cn.com/2005/11/11/4645847.jpg[/img]
Manchurian writer
[img]http://www.szjd.buct.edu.cn/xuanxiuke/jieshao/yishu/image/baiyinsheng.png[/img]

I'll post more if I find them. I checked the sources and I'm pretty sure they aren't Han Chinese.

A Mongolian guy I talked to can understand quite a lot of words from Manchurian.
The background music on this site is in Manchurian.
Dongbei Manzu

Modern Manchu ppl. I got these from various personelle sites. Ethnicity is required on ID cards in China. Majority seem to have big faces. I remember one side of my family used to make fun of another side. The Manchus vs the Mongols fighting over which side has bigger faces (not a compliment for Chinese). I think they all do. It seems that most Tungus-Altaic people seem to have big faces. Cheekbone prominence is higher in the more northern populations in Siberia. Kazakhs and Mongols have really high cheekbones too. But there's no exact. Most Manchus have slight to just very minimal difference with other Han Chinese. Some look quite distinct. The difference can be enhanced with traditional clothing I think.



I likeh deh shades.








[img]http://www.hmzart.com/upload/2005318181703.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.juristunion.com/zhuanjia/jrl.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.jllib.com/myweb5/klrw/klrw065.JPG[/img]

It's like hitting the jackpot of Manchu faces.

maybe Manchurian (if anyone still speaks it) and Nanai, but very unlikely Manchurian and any dialect of Evenki. The Evenki languages (and I emphasize the plurality because they are a very diverse group, both linguistically and racially and even culturally) are too far apart from Manchurian language and is infact classified to be within a different Tungusic group than Manchurian, Nanai, Xibe, etc).
I'm Turkic and can see the similarities in other Turkic languages, but it doesn't mean they are mutually intelligible. Lots of Mongolian words are similar too but its totally unintelligible to me.

They're all somewhat similar, but definitely as similar as Manchurian and Sibe languages. They're almost identical. Then comes Nanai. Evenki has so many smaller tribes within and is more distant. Either way, its closest cousin is something like the Manchurian language. Manchurian isn't intelligible to Mongolian. A lot of the sentence formation sounds like old Mongolian and there are a lot of words shared in common. I'm guessing the relationship is something like Korean and Japanese.

they are well known chinese entertainers,none of them are mixed with hans. their personal profiles clearly stated they are manchus.

this guy looks no different from other chinese












please,tungusic are different from mongolic.
there isnt another race besides mongoloid race in this case.







no


the Manchu's traditional homeland is located between the Changbai Mountains, and the Wusuli and Heilong Rivers.


http://www.c-c-c.org/chineseculture/minority/manchu.html

You are confused between linguistic and anthropologic affiliations.

Eg. The iraqi/arabs and the english belongs to different linguistic group but they belong to the same anthropologic grouping called Caucasoid.

Austronesian is a linguistic grouping but the malays are anthropologically under the broad category of Mongoloid race.

Thank you for the pictures of manchus. Most of them have the typical tungusic looks which is very small eyes (in relation to the face), very fair skin and faces with a lot of fat.

These characteristics are what the very cold climate has evolved them into. The keyword here is preservation of FACIAL FAT to conserve heat.

How sure are you that none of them are mixed with hans ? Did you form a family tree history of all their members for generations ?

For a mixed marriage, the ethnicity of the personal profile FOLLOW the father, we don't know their mother or grandparents or great grandparents ethnicity.

Most of the pictures given by suren are more representative of pure tungusic people.

You're welcome. Without doubt in my mind, however, probably most of the people I posted were mixed with Han Chinese. But there are minor things here and there you can pick out. Rounder and more flat face is kind of the general trend.

There's no doubt in my mind by now majority of the Manchus are mixed in some way. Whether it's in the grandparents' generation or parents' generation. I met a few who were my age and they're all mixed. All of my cousins from that side of the family are half Manchus.

I agree that the modern Manchus in china are mostly mixed Han chinese. That's why most of the photos by dearcool look so chinese. There is no way that a pure tungusic can have such large eyes in one of his photo.

The pure tungusic people can be seen from the native eskimos, the face has a lot of facial fat, small eyes, round face. Evolution of genes determines looks.

we may have to agree to disagree here. I re looked at the racial categories for Mongoloids and there seems to be those who feel that Malays/Indonesians are part of the Mongoloid group, while also, a number of those who feel that they form their own group. I am inclined to go with the latter.

As for Inuits, they are similar, but sigificantly different in their appearance with Tungusic peoples. Quite honestly, its one of those things thats a bit hard to describe, but easier to explain if you keep looking at pictures of them and seeing them. I also like to add that there is also a "range" of variation in looks. For example, I feel that most Mongols can easily pass as Korean, but not every Korean can pass as Mongol. like wise, any Mongol could probably pass as Kazakh, but not every Kazakh could pass as Mongol. meaning that while Mongols do tend to have those with longer shaped heads, a good percentage tend to have the circular ones with a higher and broader cheekbone. Same with Koreans, but you also see a good deal of other physical types as well.

btw, to Suren, you mentioned Daurs. did you meet many in your area? I always found them to be interesting .

^Haha yeah I agree with what you said. Pretty much any Mongol can pass off as Korean but not all Korean can pass off as Mongol and most Mongols can pass off as Kazakhs but not the other way around.

Yeah there are Daur communities in various parts of Inner Mongolia. From looking at a group of Daurs, you know they're related to Mongols. They're descendents of Khitans, as proven by DNA analysis. Some can also look just like any other regular Chinese, but majority have very prominent cheekbones, deepset and small eyes, similar to Mongols. They are "alcohol enthusiasts" like Mongols lol.

i think we need to define things properly, manchus as in the original people from liaoning area, the jurchens manchu? or anyone with a slight hint of manchu blood in them?
a lot of manchus are mixed with other races now, even the qing emperors themselves are mixed with mongol/han blood. shunzhi was the first emperor to rule over china proper and he already wasnt a full manchu. his mum, xiaozhuang was a mongol princess. he has mongol blood.

jiaqing emperor's biological mother was a han. he is already half han in that sense.

if you look at the faces of the earlier emperor's/princes of the qing dynasty, they do have pretty broad faces but it's long as well.
nuharchi's face was broad and long. so was huangtaii(i'm, not sure if he is full full manchu cause there are little sources on his mum) but if you find pictures of dorgon and dodo, (their mum is full manchu from the unanala clan) i think would be able to best represent a time where both ethnics are still rather seperated.

i dont think celebs are a good choice. celebs dont look like the rest of the people. not everyone looks like miss world. celebs are chosen specifically because they look "better" than the rest of the norm and i dont think celebs look very different from one another anyway. they all have this "look". just like how all models are tall and angular, and sure there are caucasian models, japanese models, but i wouldnt expect the rest of the population to look like they do.

Its true. My aunt is Manchu and she doesnt speak a lick of the Manchurian language( nor can she write it). She only speaks Mandarin. The Manchu population in China now is so integrated into the majority Han culture that they are losing many of their own customs. In fact, its hard to tell Manchu and Han apart now(especially with all the mixing as well the fact that almost all Manchu's speak Mandarin nowadays). They have maintained alot of their ethnic cuisine though. When I went to Harbin to visit my aunt it was bloody cold. My uncle used to cook Taiwanese food for her because that is all he knew how to cook and she wasnt used to it. My uncle told me she likes to eat potatoes and other slow cooked or stewed foods. Im guessing those are ethnic Manchurian foods. (not really sure). My uncle is more of a rice person himself

Its true. My aunt is Manchu and she doesnt speak a lick of the Manchurian language( nor can she write it). She only speaks Mandarin. The Manchu population in China now is so integrated into the majority Han culture that they are losing many of their own customs. In fact, its hard to tell Manchu and Han apart now(especially with all the mixing as well the fact that almost all Manchu's speak Mandarin nowadays). They have maintained alot of their ethnic cuisine though. When I went to Harbin to visit my aunt it was bloody cold. My uncle used to cook Taiwanese food for her because that is all he knew how to cook and she wasnt used to it. My uncle told me she likes to eat potatoes and other slow cooked or stewed foods. Im guessing those are ethnic Manchurian foods. (not really sure). My uncle is more of a rice person himself

Alright, finally deleted and clean up all the garbage posts. This thread is now cleaner.

For those who wants to have a look at how Manchus look like, you can refer to http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=25594 , where I've posted some Manchu celebrities.

They look no different from any northern han-chinese.

from what I've seen Manchus have a higher chance of having a ruddy face, or are brownish like many coastal northeast asians. their eyes are also deeper set and the pigmentation around the eyes stands out. the nose is a little different too at times.

but there has been widespread admixture and convergent evolution.

The Manchus who look Han Chinese look very Han Chinese.

I guess it's because of inter mixing. Original Manchus looked more Tungusic (i.e. longer faces, deep set eyes, higher cheekbones).

Some photos of Manchus look 100% Korean.