hmm.....sounds fine, the chinese are often wanted to use the philippines for their expansion like taiwan. but the philippines then is under spain, and the filipinos are then considered as allies of the spanish.
koxinga often wanted to conquer the islands like the chinese pirate limahong did. but they are always beaten by the combined arms of spaniards and filipinos.
Full Version: Koxinga's army
""Thier ships only has 1 main cannon and 1 hand fired cannon. This is terrible when you consider that the average european ship has 30. ""
You can't compare individual ships, for the simple reason most European ships are larger, you have to compare their overall displacement and crew numbers.
You can't compare individual ships, for the simple reason most European ships are larger, you have to compare their overall displacement and crew numbers.
Do these guys get their rattan armor and shields from the Southern Man armies of 3k. Or was that made up?
does koxinga's men have muskets?
QUOTE(Hoa Phau @ Apr 3 2006, 03:18 PM) [snapback]4800579[/snapback]
hmm.....sounds fine, the chinese are often wanted to use the philippines for their expansion like taiwan. but the philippines then is under spain, and the filipinos are then considered as allies of the spanish.
koxinga often wanted to conquer the islands like the chinese pirate limahong did. but they are always beaten by the combined arms of spaniards and filipinos.
koxinga often wanted to conquer the islands like the chinese pirate limahong did. but they are always beaten by the combined arms of spaniards and filipinos.
Hi
Regarding Koxinga wanting to conquer the Philllippines.
http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2005/m...050525top7.html
It resullted the massacre of Chinese residents in the Philippines
The only Chinese invasion i knew of was by Chinese pirate Lim Ah Hong. Some of his men remain in Lingayen. Lim Ah hong himself was driven, and later defeated by the Ming navy.
Koxinga's men have muskets for sure. His personal guard are the "Black musketeers"
http://world.people.com.cn/BIG5/8212/42363...77/4213123.html
QUOTE(hansioux @ May 27 2005, 11:12 PM) [snapback]4724851[/snapback]
Zheng Zhilong and Koxinga used British Canons.
Any sources on this? The Dutch eye-witness report I read, spoke only of Chinese-made cannons.
Why did they use Black soilders as bodygaurds , athletism and build?
I m mostly Dutch but these campaign details were usually not told at college 
I have a quick question, how many instances in the earlier Ming Dynasty were blacks used as musketeers, gate guards, soldiers, etc. Did certain blacks in Ming China ever become prominent as flag and standard bearers as well?
Eric
Eric
QUOTE(hansioux @ May 26 2005, 07:47 PM) 
The Dutch had two castles in Taiwan. One is called 熱蘭遮城 Zeelandia and the other 普羅岷西亞城 Provintia. After Koxinga took over, the two catsles were destroyed and rebuilt in Han styled castles then renamed Zeelandia to 安平 and Provintia to 赤崁.
Actually Koxinga did a lot of strategy to fool the Dutch. First, he tricked the last Dutch governor 揆一 Frederick Coyett in 1660 that he is going to attack on march 27th on a full moon. So he sent ships to Dutch Indis to ask for help.
However, the Koxinga did not attack, and the Dutch leaders in Dutch Indis feel that Coyett crying wolf. However, they sent a fleet to Taiwan on July 17th anyway. They were hoping besides protecting Taiwan, they could attack the Portregese Macau, which they tried 32 years ago with the British and failed.
The fleet includes fast figate S'Gravenlande, Archilles, Hector, Der Veer, Dolphijin, Worcum, Tergoes. Warships N,enchuysen. Merchant vessel Leerdam devincke, and small frigate Maria. Flate bottomed boat Enr about 12 ships total, carrying 600 troops and all the supplies. The relieve fleet was commanded by Joan Van der Laen.
After the fleet reached Taiwan, there was no Koxinga to be seen. Joan Van der Laen wanted to attack Macau, but Coyet was too afraid of Koxinga's possible invasion and refused to let him go. The plan was to attack on October, however it was delayed to Feb. While wating, the Portregese already learned of the Dutch plans and fortified Macau.
Therefore, Van Der Laen had to cancel his plans. Which made the governor in the Dutch Indis very displeased with Coyett. Then the fleet finally left around March of 1661, leaving only 3 warships in Taiwan.
At the same time, 何斌 He Bin, a Han Taiwanese escaped to Amoy and told Koxinga :「台灣土地沃野千里，四通外洋，橫絕大海，得其地足以為反清復明基地，蕃受紅毛人凌辱，思欲反抗已久矣，以公威臨之，則如狼逐羊也。」
"Taiwanese is a large island with great lands and key position in the ocean route. The island is perfect for setting up a base against the Manchurians. The Taiwanese Aboriginals has long been abused by the Dutch. They wants to repel the Dutch for a long time. If a man with your statue goes to Taiwan, driving out the Dutch would be like Wolfs chasing off Lambs."
He Bin also instructed navigation details to Koxinga.
On 1661 April 21, one month after the Dutch fleet left Taiwan, Koxinga's army sailed out for Taiwan. Coyett was defenseless. Especially when Koxinga sailed into the lagoons on high tide and landed out of range for his Cannons and defense positions.
Out of the 3 Dutch ships Hector was destroyed. Maria and S'Gravenlande escaped to the sea. Maria went back to the Dutch Indis to ask for help. S'Gravenlande went north to evacuate Dutch in northern Taiwan.
On the land, all Dutch were defeated with in 24 days. Leaving the Zeelandia castle. It's Koxinga's usual style not to attack a strong hold. He likes to wait them out. (Which was why he lost Nanjing).
The original Dutch relief fleet went back to the Dutch Indis and complained about Coyett. Therefore the Dtuch named a new governor to Taiwan and on 1661 June 22nd sent him off on the Jacht Hogelande.
Two days after the "new" governor left, the escaped Dutch ship Maria reached the Dutch Indis and asked for help. June 30th, Jacht Hogelande reached Taiwan and the new governor saw nothing but Koxinga ships, so instead of helping out Coyett, he escaped to Japan.
After Maria brought the bad news, the Dutch sent Jacob Caeuw to lead a relief fleet of 9 vessels, 725 troops to relieve Zeelandia. The fleet reached Taiwan, lost two ships before they reached Zeelandia castle. Jacob Caeuw was so scared, he said Typhoon was coming, so he needed to take the ships out to the sea. In fact, he turned to Pescadores, raided and stayed there for a little bit.
September 1661, Jacob Caeuw figured Koxinga's navy might have thought they are gone, so he returned to fight Koxinga again. This time he lost 5 ships and 152 men. He reached Zeelandia.
October 25th, Coyett wants to sent women and children off in a ship. Caeuw jumped and volunteered for the task. Coyett rejected it. On Novenber 6th, Coyett decided to send ships to Manchurians and combine the Dutch and Qing fleet to attack Amoy and other Koxinga strongholds.
Again, Caeux jumped to volunteer. This time Coyett approved. So Jacob Caeuw took what's left of his fleet and sailed out.
But he didn't head for Qing though. He went straight back to the Dutch Indis
v_v...
Actually Koxinga did a lot of strategy to fool the Dutch. First, he tricked the last Dutch governor 揆一 Frederick Coyett in 1660 that he is going to attack on march 27th on a full moon. So he sent ships to Dutch Indis to ask for help.
However, the Koxinga did not attack, and the Dutch leaders in Dutch Indis feel that Coyett crying wolf. However, they sent a fleet to Taiwan on July 17th anyway. They were hoping besides protecting Taiwan, they could attack the Portregese Macau, which they tried 32 years ago with the British and failed.
The fleet includes fast figate S'Gravenlande, Archilles, Hector, Der Veer, Dolphijin, Worcum, Tergoes. Warships N,enchuysen. Merchant vessel Leerdam devincke, and small frigate Maria. Flate bottomed boat Enr about 12 ships total, carrying 600 troops and all the supplies. The relieve fleet was commanded by Joan Van der Laen.
After the fleet reached Taiwan, there was no Koxinga to be seen. Joan Van der Laen wanted to attack Macau, but Coyet was too afraid of Koxinga's possible invasion and refused to let him go. The plan was to attack on October, however it was delayed to Feb. While wating, the Portregese already learned of the Dutch plans and fortified Macau.
Therefore, Van Der Laen had to cancel his plans. Which made the governor in the Dutch Indis very displeased with Coyett. Then the fleet finally left around March of 1661, leaving only 3 warships in Taiwan.
At the same time, 何斌 He Bin, a Han Taiwanese escaped to Amoy and told Koxinga :「台灣土地沃野千里，四通外洋，橫絕大海，得其地足以為反清復明基地，蕃受紅毛人凌辱，思欲反抗已久矣，以公威臨之，則如狼逐羊也。」
"Taiwanese is a large island with great lands and key position in the ocean route. The island is perfect for setting up a base against the Manchurians. The Taiwanese Aboriginals has long been abused by the Dutch. They wants to repel the Dutch for a long time. If a man with your statue goes to Taiwan, driving out the Dutch would be like Wolfs chasing off Lambs."
He Bin also instructed navigation details to Koxinga.
On 1661 April 21, one month after the Dutch fleet left Taiwan, Koxinga's army sailed out for Taiwan. Coyett was defenseless. Especially when Koxinga sailed into the lagoons on high tide and landed out of range for his Cannons and defense positions.
Out of the 3 Dutch ships Hector was destroyed. Maria and S'Gravenlande escaped to the sea. Maria went back to the Dutch Indis to ask for help. S'Gravenlande went north to evacuate Dutch in northern Taiwan.
On the land, all Dutch were defeated with in 24 days. Leaving the Zeelandia castle. It's Koxinga's usual style not to attack a strong hold. He likes to wait them out. (Which was why he lost Nanjing).
The original Dutch relief fleet went back to the Dutch Indis and complained about Coyett. Therefore the Dtuch named a new governor to Taiwan and on 1661 June 22nd sent him off on the Jacht Hogelande.
Two days after the "new" governor left, the escaped Dutch ship Maria reached the Dutch Indis and asked for help. June 30th, Jacht Hogelande reached Taiwan and the new governor saw nothing but Koxinga ships, so instead of helping out Coyett, he escaped to Japan.
After Maria brought the bad news, the Dutch sent Jacob Caeuw to lead a relief fleet of 9 vessels, 725 troops to relieve Zeelandia. The fleet reached Taiwan, lost two ships before they reached Zeelandia castle. Jacob Caeuw was so scared, he said Typhoon was coming, so he needed to take the ships out to the sea. In fact, he turned to Pescadores, raided and stayed there for a little bit.
September 1661, Jacob Caeuw figured Koxinga's navy might have thought they are gone, so he returned to fight Koxinga again. This time he lost 5 ships and 152 men. He reached Zeelandia.
October 25th, Coyett wants to sent women and children off in a ship. Caeuw jumped and volunteered for the task. Coyett rejected it. On Novenber 6th, Coyett decided to send ships to Manchurians and combine the Dutch and Qing fleet to attack Amoy and other Koxinga strongholds.
Again, Caeux jumped to volunteer. This time Coyett approved. So Jacob Caeuw took what's left of his fleet and sailed out.
But he didn't head for Qing though. He went straight back to the Dutch Indis
v_v...
Amazing, this proof that China at that time especially during the Ming dynasty period their military is well equip and capable of matching up against the Europeans. It is unfortunate that under the Manchus China slowly and surely lost their progression and failed to keep up with modernization.
QUOTE(Wan Ren aka Danny @ Oct 10 2007, 02:11 PM)
Amazing, this proof that China at that time especially during the Ming dynasty period their military is well equip and capable of matching up against the Europeans. It is unfortunate that under the Manchus China slowly and surely lost their progression and failed to keep up with modernization.
Though it's still important to note that by the Ming period, the European Folangjis were recognized as the best artillery. The sieges of Zeelandia and Provintia were made extremely difficult due to the fact that the Dutch batteries outranged the Chinese ones; making bombardment of the fortresses especially difficult.
So I would argue that some degree of stagnation still did occur under the Ming; though not to the almost unfair proportions that the Qing would later face pitting their matchlocks against modern rifles.
I came across this unique Ming armies while playing Age of Empires III : The Asian Dynasties. Can anyone tell me is it true this type of army did exist in the Ming period?
I have merged the Iron Troops question into an existing thread. Let the discussion commence!
I also hope that the old posts might help you a bit.
I also hope that the old posts might help you a bit.
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