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hansioux
Chheng Singgong, Zheng Chenggong, 鄭成功, aka Koxinga 國姓爺 and his family perhaps are most famous by their great naval skills. After all, together with his father and his son, the Zheng family defeated the Dutch four times. And when the Spanish heard the Koxinga was coming to avenge the killing of Han immigrants in the Philippines, the Spanish were truly worried. However, There's something equally impressive about Koxinga's army. Koxinga's army was specialized in the condition of Hokkien and other Southern provinces. His army defeated the Qing one land and held them off Amoy for 20 years. While he twice led armies north and almost sacked NanJing.

Koxinga organized his army in to two groups. One for field battles and one for defensive battles fought over important towns and key fortresses.

His armies were form by the following types of troops:

部隊裝備有盔甲、籐牌、滾被、銃砲、刀斧等。又親軍衛鎮則有收編黑奴為兵的洋槍部隊,即護衛一鎮,鄭經時期這黑人護衛鎮作為宮中衛隊及僕役用。 

The equipments used by Zheng's armies are helmets, Rattan Shields, Rolling Cover, Firearms, knifes and axes and etc. Within the Elite Guards, black slaves were used as Firearm troops and protects a town. During the times of Zheng Jing (Koxinga's son), the black slaves soldiers were used as guards in the palace and as servants.

In defensive battles, Koxinga utilized a lot of mines. Often time’s mines are placed and Koxinga would lure the Qing army into the mines and detonate to achieve maximum damage.

In all Koxinga’s army, perhaps the most famous is the Rattan Shield 藤牌 troops as it was mentioned in Jinyong’s novel Deer Caldron.

However, equally impressive is his Iron Troops.

Iron Troops:

In March of 1658, Koxinga mentioned to his generals that last year, the army defeated 河格商 He Ge Shang at 護國嶺 Hu Guo Ling and got his armor. It was covered in iron scales. Koxinga recalls seeing the Japanese heavy armor in his youth in Japan and he decided having Iron Armor gives soldiers more advantage both mentally and physically.

Several of his generals were against the idea. They feel that Iron Armor is good in cavalry battles. However being in the south, Koxinga’s army doesn’t have an cavalry, therefore Iron Armor isn’t going to work on foot soldiers. Iron Armors weighs up to 30 Jin, making it very hard to maneuver as infantry. General 甘煇Gam Hui (Gan Huei for Mandarin readers) suggested to have soldiers train with sand bags tied on foot, they could get use to the weight. Later on, he had a stone weighing 300 Jin in the middle of the training field. Those who can were armor and moved the stone around the field 3 times gets to be selected into the Elite Guards, called Iron Man, and paid 3 Liangs of Silver every month.

The elite guards wore metal masks, metal armor, and wore facial paintings. Koxinga was able to recruit about 10,000 of such troops. They weren’t afraid of other weapons, often times are in the front of the army, wielding Zhan Ma Dao 斬馬刀. The enemy of Koxinga often thought of the Iron Troops as gods. The first time the Qing army saw the Iron Troops, they were afraid to attack.

In battles for Formosa, the Dutch saw the Iron Troops and developed a deep fear of Koxinga’s armies. They even draw the troops in their diaries. They described the Iron Troops as such: “There are 3 types of weapons used by the Koxinga’s army. A portion of them wore bows and arrows on their back, holding a very heavy sword with the right hand and had a shield on the left hand. Others hold long sticks with a curved blades at the tips. All of his troops, besides their arms and feet were covered in iron scaled armor… They held their shields for cover and charged into their enemy. They entered in and out of the enemy position almost as if they had another body at home which they could use. Even though many of them died, but the others wouldn’t even look and charged on like crazy dogs.”

The shield mentioned were Rattan shields and the heavy swords were Yunnan Zhan Ma Dao 雲南斬馬刀.


Paintings of Iron Troops by the Dutch.

The Chinese records on the Iron troops are:

設戎旗左右鎮,以林勝為左戎旗鎮,拔左衝鎮楊琦為右戎旗鎮,調各處鄉勇訓練銃器,配執銅百子花釬銃,設斬馬刀,不空歸木棍,每名兵另帶銃彈三粒在身,遇敵擲擊。

The troops were divided into Left and Right wings. Lin Sheng led the Left Wing and Yang Qi led the Right Wing. The recruited volunteers from many towns to train them on the use of firearms and equip them with braze Bai Zi Hua gun, Zan Ma Dao, Bu Kong Guei sticks. Every soldier carried 3 bullets to shoot at the enemy.

Rattan Shield:

There are many reasons why Koxinga’s army used Rattan shield.

First of all, much of Hokkien and Taiwan was covered by jungle, making Rattan readily available and much cheaper than other material. Also Rattan shields are extremely light, and it is easy to use and carry. Finally, Rattan floats. After the shield is processed with oil, not only can Rattan defend against arrow and bullets, it generates great buoyancy, making it easy for soldiers to cross a body of water. That is how the Iron troops crossed rivers. Rattan shield troops uses 緬刀 Mian Dao or 雲南斬馬刀 Yunnan Zan Ma Dao as weapons. When fighting, Rattan shield blocks incoming projectiles and then soldiers would roll to the enemy and cut the legs of the enemy or enemy horses. It is extremely effective at breaking through enemy formations.

In Koxinga’s army, everyone from the general to the soldiers were expects in using the Rattan shield. Normally his armies required equal amounts of firearms and rattan shiled.

There are 6 Rattan shiled fighting methods:
1. Roll towards the enemy formation and cut legs.
2. Use the shield to block of arrows and stones while breeching city walls or boarding enemy ships.
3. Using 3 man as a group, one man used the shield for protection, the other 2 would attack.
4. A formation of Rattan shields could charge into enemy formation and initiate close combat.
5. 藤牌厝 Rattan Shield House. A unit of Rattan shield forming roof and walls and charge. Also called Round Formation attack. Often used against the Qing cavalry archers or other high maneuverable enemies.
6. Big Hat attack.

In the book 明季南略 Ming Ji Nan Lue, it described Koxinga’s Northward Push as such:

「…前隊長鎗,次團牌,第二陣『倭銃 』…而疾走如飛,突至馬前殺人。其兵三人一伍,一兵執團牌,蔽兩人,一邱斫馬,一兵砍人,甚銳,一刀揮鐵甲軍馬為兩段。蓋鑄刀時,用鐵匠百人挨遞打成此一刀,故銳特甚…鄭兵不動,俱銕甲胄銕面頭子,只露兩足,用長刀砍騎,銳不可當,射中其足,則拔箭更戰,清兵逐敗…」 此處所說的團牌即藤牌,並有鐵人及藤牌的使用。 「第一隊五十人,前有五色旗一面領之。有滾被二人;滾被者,用一大棉被厚二寸,一人執之,雙手有刀。如箭至,即張被遮候; 箭過,即捲被持刀滾進,斫人馬足,又有團牌二人。滾被、團牌此四人俱喫雙糧。」

“The front formations were armed with spears, then with round shields. The second formation were armed with 倭銃 Japanese firearm. They move fast like flying, suddenly arrived in front of the horse to make their kill. Every 3 soldiers move as a group. One man held the shield to protect the other two soldiers. One attacks the horse, the other attacks the person. The knifes are very sharp, one slash could cut the iron armor and horse in to half. That’s because while making the sword, one hundred black smith hammered the sword… The Zheng army need not move, all of them armed with Iron armor and Iron Masks, showing only the bare feet, used long swords to chop down horses. If arrow shot their feet, they would pull it out and continue fighting. Qing’s army was no match for them.”

Here mentioning the used of Rattan shields and Iron man.

“Every team consists of 50 man, with a five colored flag leading. Two man wore the Rolling Cover, which is a big Cotton cover as thick as two inches. One man held it, with knifes in both hands. When arrows arrive, they raised the cover to block it. As soon as the arrows has passed, they rolled the cover around and rolled on the ground forward with knifes and chops foot of man and horses. There are also Rattan Shield teams in two men. All 4 men in the Rolling Cover team and Rattan shield team eats double the food than the regular soldiers.




Present Day Rattan Shield. The art of Rattan shields are still practiced in some areas of Taiwan. However the shields are smaller than what the Koxinga army would have used.
TMPikachu
This is something I've never heard before, and quite amazing.

It sounds like it uses cleverness and speed to counter firearms, instead of thicker armor.

The rolling cover and the rolling attacks are kinda strange though. I don't quite understand.
hansioux
QUOTE(TMPikachu @ May 23 2005, 05:51 PM)
This is something I've never heard before, and quite amazing.

It sounds like it uses cleverness and speed to counter firearms, instead of thicker armor.

The rolling cover and the rolling attacks are kinda strange though. I don't quite understand.
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It basicly is just rolling on the ground forward like what a kid would do.

There are many Han fighting styles featuring rolling moves.

The idea is that the enemy's weapon isn't long enough, that they had to bend down to get to you. Or when the enemy is trying to shoot you with a gun or arrow, it is much harder if you are on the ground rolling fast.
hansioux
A interesting fact is the Koxinga required his troops to be bare fett. They are punished for wearing shoes. Appearing with heavy army, on muddy environments, shoes can cause trouble where bare feet wouldn't....
TMPikachu
that is very strange. What is the advantage of bare feet in those environments?

Do they at least wear shoes for marching?
Yang Zongbao
Very interesting, HS.
::clap::
hansioux
QUOTE(TMPikachu @ May 23 2005, 06:27 PM)
that is very strange. What is the advantage of bare feet in those environments?

Do they at least wear shoes for marching?
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I believe that the arch of the foot and toes would allow less sinking into muddy places.
ih8eurocentrix
at agincourt the french knights got stuck in the mud cos there armour was so heavy,
they should have worn bare feet it seems
TMPikachu
QUOTE(ih8eurocentrix @ May 23 2005, 11:19 PM)
at agincourt the french knights got stuck in the mud  cos there armour was so heavy,
they should have worn bare feet it seems
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well, I don't think it makes much of a difference when you're an 800 lb horse covered in iron, with an ironclad rider.

Rattan treated with oils could stop musket balls? Impressive. So why not make Rattan body armor instead of iron?


I'm just used to at this time European observers mocking Chinese armies for their stupid, wasteful actions. Rolling seems to be something that was made fun of.
hansioux
QUOTE(TMPikachu @ May 23 2005, 08:22 PM)
well, I don't think it makes much of a difference when you're an 800 lb horse covered in iron, with an ironclad rider.

Rattan treated with oils could stop musket balls? Impressive. So why not make Rattan body armor instead of iron?
I'm just used to at this time European observers mocking Chinese armies for their stupid, wasteful actions. Rolling seems to be something that was made fun of.
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It was laughed at until they foot gets cut off.

I think Rattan armor has a weekness that every body knows.... it catches on fire... v_v
ih8eurocentrix
5. 藤牌厝 Rattan Shield House. A unit of Rattan shield forming roof and walls and charge. Also called Round Formation attack. Often used against the Qing cavalry archers or other high maneuverable enemies

sounds like a testudo formation?

1. Roll towards the enemy formation and cut legs.how could u do that if fully armoured?did they roll foward on there head.
hansioux
QUOTE(ih8eurocentrix @ May 23 2005, 08:34 PM)
5. 藤牌厝 Rattan Shield House. A unit of Rattan shield forming roof and walls and charge. Also called Round Formation attack. Often used against the Qing cavalry archers or other high maneuverable enemies

sounds like a testudo formation?

1. Roll towards the enemy formation and cut legs.how could u do that if fully armoured?did they roll foward on there head.
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well, it's not knight armor we are talking here....
Sephodwyrm
However, even the heavy armored Iron Troops were overpowered by the Qing army in the failed offensive directed at Nanjing.

Rolling around actually gave a much smaller profile for getting shot at. Plus, its probably easier to roll around in heavy armor. The back side to this might be that you get really dizzy, but then again, maybe the soldiers were used to this.
Thomas Chen
Hansioux...

RE: " Rattan shield troops uses 緬刀 Mian Dao or 雲南斬馬刀 Yunnan Zan Ma Dao as weapons. When fighting, Rattan shield blocks incoming projectiles and then soldiers would roll to the enemy and cut the legs of the enemy or enemy horses. It is extremely effective at breaking through enemy formations. "


Thanks for all this interesting info !!!

If I understand it correctly, the Mian Dao (Burma Dao) or Yunnan Zhanmadao should be similar to this 2-handed weapon, belonging to Emperor Kangxi...

http://forums.swordforum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=372387

As you can see, it bears the same blade profile as the blades used by some minorities in Yunnan province as well as the dha/dharb blades used by Thailand and Burma/Myanmar...

I speculate that Koxinga most likely learned the technique of cutting horse legs from General Qi Jiguang's manuals...
wuTao
Wow, sounds like the Iron Troops were a formidable army! smile.gif Any descriptions of their performance in specifics battles? Are there many battle accounts of the wars fought by Koxinga and his heirs in general?
hansioux
QUOTE(Thomas Chen @ May 24 2005, 08:29 PM)
Hansioux...

RE: " Rattan shield troops uses 緬刀 Mian Dao or 雲南斬馬刀 Yunnan Zan Ma Dao as weapons. When fighting, Rattan shield blocks incoming projectiles and then soldiers would roll to the enemy and cut the legs of the enemy or enemy horses. It is extremely effective at breaking through enemy formations. "
Thanks for all this interesting info !!!

If I understand it correctly, the Mian Dao (Burma Dao)  or Yunnan Zhanmadao should be similar to this 2-handed weapon, belonging to Emperor Kangxi...

http://forums.swordforum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=372387

As you can see, it bears the same blade profile as the blades used by some minorities in Yunnan province as well as the dha/dharb blades used by Thailand and Burma/Myanmar...

I speculate that Koxinga most likely learned the technique of cutting horse legs from General Qi Jiguang's manuals...
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Awesome picture!!! I'd love to have one of those knife.
hansioux
QUOTE(wuTao @ May 25 2005, 12:48 AM)
Wow, sounds like the Iron Troops were a formidable army!  smile.gif  Any descriptions of their performance in specifics battles? Are there many battle accounts of the wars fought by Koxinga and his heirs in general?
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I'll have to do some digging. But I think normally the Europeans accounts describes the battle in much better details.

Han styled history books tend to be generic and not very specific.

But there were many battles fought by Koxinga or his decendents. Qing army actually had a hard time with Koxinga's troops.
Pingpong
I was wondering: how did a pirate army carrying rattan shields evict the musket-wielding dutch from their castles and oust them from Taiwan?

It is important to note that, Koxinga's Taiwan had little craftsmenship. They had to trade with Fujian on the Pescadores through smuggling to get textiles.
hansioux
QUOTE(Pingpong @ May 26 2005, 01:26 PM)
I was wondering: how did a pirate army carrying rattan shields evict the musket-wielding dutch from their castles and oust them from Taiwan?

It is important to note that, Koxinga's Taiwan had little craftsmenship. They had to trade with Fujian on the Pescadores through smuggling to get textiles.
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Actually, Koxinga's army had little to do with his father's pirates.

Besides, Zheng Zhilong makes most money by taxing trade between Dutch and Ming traders. Also by receiving protection fees from passing ships. If the passing ships had his flag, then no one would dare to attack. That's the standard way gangs work in the Han society.

In anycase, when Zheng Zhilong went to the Manchurians, his son did not get any of the army from his dad. Instead, he only decided to start his army, after learning that Qing raided his dad's hometown and raped his mother. His mother hang herself. Koxinga then went to the Confucius temple to trade his student clothes for general clothes. He went on the street and recruited 16 people from the town, and that's how it all started.

In 1600s, muskets aren't as effective as bullets today. They are simple big lead balls with very little penitration abilities.

Rattan shield will be very effective in stopping the bullets. They probably be stuck in the shield or simply bounce off.
ih8eurocentrix
Did the dutch build castles in Taiwan?if so how did he take them
Did the dutch have swords etc or just guns,
hansioux
QUOTE(ih8eurocentrix @ May 26 2005, 02:47 PM)
Did the dutch build castles in Taiwan?if so how did he take them
Did the dutch have swords etc or just guns,
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The Dutch had two castles in Taiwan. One is called 熱蘭遮城 Zeelandia and the other 普羅岷西亞城 Provintia. After Koxinga took over, the two catsles were destroyed and rebuilt in Han styled castles then renamed Zeelandia to 安平 and Provintia to 赤崁.

Actually Koxinga did a lot of strategy to fool the Dutch. First, he tricked the last Dutch governor 揆一 Frederick Coyett in 1660 that he is going to attack on march 27th on a full moon. So he sent ships to Dutch Indis to ask for help.

However, the Koxinga did not attack, and the Dutch leaders in Dutch Indis feel that Coyett crying wolf. However, they sent a fleet to Taiwan on July 17th anyway. They were hoping besides protecting Taiwan, they could attack the Portregese Macau, which they tried 32 years ago with the British and failed.

The fleet includes fast figate S'Gravenlande, Archilles, Hector, Der Veer, Dolphijin, Worcum, Tergoes. Warships N,enchuysen. Merchant vessel Leerdam devincke, and small frigate Maria. Flate bottomed boat Enr about 12 ships total, carrying 600 troops and all the supplies. The relieve fleet was commanded by Joan Van der Laen.

After the fleet reached Taiwan, there was no Koxinga to be seen. Joan Van der Laen wanted to attack Macau, but Coyet was too afraid of Koxinga's possible invasion and refused to let him go. The plan was to attack on October, however it was delayed to Feb. While wating, the Portregese already learned of the Dutch plans and fortified Macau.

Therefore, Van Der Laen had to cancel his plans. Which made the governor in the Dutch Indis very displeased with Coyett. Then the fleet finally left around March of 1661, leaving only 3 warships in Taiwan.

At the same time, 何斌 He Bin, a Han Taiwanese escaped to Amoy and told Koxinga :「台灣土地沃野千里,四通外洋,橫絕大海,得其地足以為反清復明基地,蕃受紅毛人凌辱,思欲反抗已久矣,以公威臨之,則如狼逐羊也。」

"Taiwanese is a large island with great lands and key position in the ocean route. The island is perfect for setting up a base against the Manchurians. The Taiwanese Aboriginals has long been abused by the Dutch. They wants to repel the Dutch for a long time. If a man with your statue goes to Taiwan, driving out the Dutch would be like Wolfs chasing off Lambs."

He Bin also instructed navigation details to Koxinga.

On 1661 April 21, one month after the Dutch fleet left Taiwan, Koxinga's army sailed out for Taiwan. Coyett was defenseless. Especially when Koxinga sailed into the lagoons on high tide and landed out of range for his Cannons and defense positions.

Out of the 3 Dutch ships Hector was destroyed. Maria and S'Gravenlande escaped to the sea. Maria went back to the Dutch Indis to ask for help. S'Gravenlande went north to evacuate Dutch in northern Taiwan.

On the land, all Dutch were defeated with in 24 days. Leaving the Zeelandia castle. It's Koxinga's usual style not to attack a strong hold. He likes to wait them out. (Which was why he lost Nanjing).

The original Dutch relief fleet went back to the Dutch Indis and complained about Coyett. Therefore the Dtuch named a new governor to Taiwan and on 1661 June 22nd sent him off on the Jacht Hogelande.

Two days after the "new" governor left, the escaped Dutch ship Maria reached the Dutch Indis and asked for help. June 30th, Jacht Hogelande reached Taiwan and the new governor saw nothing but Koxinga ships, so instead of helping out Coyett, he escaped to Japan.

After Maria brought the bad news, the Dutch sent Jacob Caeuw to lead a relief fleet of 9 vessels, 725 troops to relieve Zeelandia. The fleet reached Taiwan, lost two ships before they reached Zeelandia castle. Jacob Caeuw was so scared, he said Typhoon was coming, so he needed to take the ships out to the sea. In fact, he turned to Pescadores, raided and stayed there for a little bit.

September 1661, Jacob Caeuw figured Koxinga's navy might have thought they are gone, so he returned to fight Koxinga again. This time he lost 5 ships and 152 men. He reached Zeelandia.

October 25th, Coyett wants to sent women and children off in a ship. Caeuw jumped and volunteered for the task. Coyett rejected it. On Novenber 6th, Coyett decided to send ships to Manchurians and combine the Dutch and Qing fleet to attack Amoy and other Koxinga strongholds.

Again, Caeux jumped to volunteer. This time Coyett approved. So Jacob Caeuw took what's left of his fleet and sailed out.

But he didn't head for Qing though. He went straight back to the Dutch Indis

v_v...
Moping4U
A Dutch defector told Zheng that a redoubt of Ronduyt Uytrecht was the weak point, and the Ming troops bombard it, till the Dutch decided to give it up and then blow it up themselves b4 they retreat into the main castle.

Then the Dutch decided to give in to negociations with Zheng.


It is important to note that the Dutch b4 the battle had a low opinion of the Chinese as fighting men due to easy putting down of local uprisings. Even though they heard of the success and bravery of Zheng Chengong's army against the Manchus, the Dutch also have a low opinion of the "tartars" as well. In Coyet's accounts, he frequently mentioned the Ming troops'(on land and sea) bravery and tenacity.


THe Dutch were armed with hand grenades, muskets, cannons and mortars. Do any one know what those look like?
TMPikachu
Maybe this movie would be good?

http://www.kungfucinema.com/reviews/sinodutchwar1661.htm

Sino-Dutch War 1661 (2001)



hansioux
QUOTE(TMPikachu @ May 27 2005, 01:01 PM)
Maybe this movie would be good?

http://www.kungfucinema.com/reviews/sinodutchwar1661.htm

Sino-Dutch War 1661 (2001)




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If that movie's made in anything besides Dutch and Holo, i'd say it's a piece of crap....
TMPikachu
I don't think the Dutch are known for movies
TMPikachu
are there any pictures of their iron masks?
hansioux
QUOTE(TMPikachu @ May 27 2005, 07:15 PM)
are there any pictures of their iron masks?
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unfortunately no.

As to what the Dutch looked like. Imaging the US official troops back in the American Independence war.... kind of like that....
yehzhaofeng
As much as agree with you that the Dutch did not have metal suits as their primary 'uniform', they were not exactly like the American uniforms either. A while back, I remembered reading a book on military uniforms, and the Dutch uniforms at that time resembled prussian or Germanic uniforms mixed with the French, which had much similiarities with the British.
hansioux
QUOTE(Andrew Yip @ May 27 2005, 08:54 PM)
As much as  agree with you that the Dutch did not have metal suits as their primary 'uniform', they were not exactly like the American uniforms either. A while back, I remembered reading a book on military uniforms, and the Dutch uniforms at that time resembled prussian or Germanic uniforms mixed with the French, which had much similiarities with the British.
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I actually have some pictures

17th Centry Dutch Canons. Zheng Zhilong and Koxinga used British Canons.


Dutch in Pescadores


Dutch painting of Taiwanese Pingpu aboriginals


Dutch painting of Japanese 濱田彌兵衛 capturing the Dutch governor in Taiwan at Zeelandia. Forcing him to sign trade treaties.


Coyet, last Dutch Taiwanese governor


Dutch painting of Koxinga's army.


Dutch painting of Priest Hambroek taking Koxinga to accept Coyet surrender. His daughters were trying to stop him.


Painting of Dutch surrender
hansioux

Dtuch invasion of Kingmen
yehzhaofeng
The outfits the picture shows are during the 1600's. The clothing rembles the English, who at the time of the Glorious Revolution wore loose fitting dresses and sashes.
hansioux
QUOTE(Andrew Yip @ May 27 2005, 10:46 PM)
The outfits the picture shows are during the 1600's. The clothing rembles the English, who at the time of the Glorious Revolution wore loose fitting dresses and sashes.
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Well, Dutch was in Taiwan in that same period of time.
Yun
I just found this description in Frederic Wakeman's "The Great Enterprise (Volume 1)", written in 1985. Pages 1047-1048, narrating Zheng Chenggong's attack on Jiangnan in 1659:

[Coxinga's] 400 ships were filled with 250,000 well-equipped soldiers, most of his men being armed either with shield and short sword, or with a heavier battle sword attached to a meter-long stic that was wielded with both hands. Over their torsos they wore a kind of mail: a coat of overlapping iron scales which protected them against rifle bullets. The sea lord also had guns of his own, cannons and ammunition, and two companies of black soldiers - former Dutch slaves - who had learned how to fire rifles and muskets. In addition, he had an excellent corps of archers, who were quite accurate at long distances and even more formidable than the riflemen; and his shield-bearers were among the most aggressive assault forces in all of East Asia.

Footnote to the above: Coxinga's tactics have been described by eyewitnesses of his successful assault on the Dutch in Fort Provintia in souther Taiwan two years after the Yangzi expedition: "The shield-bearers were used instead of cavalry. Every tenth man of them is a leader, who takes charge of and presses his men on to force themselves into the rank of the enemy. With bent heads and their bodies hidden behind the shield, they try to break through the opposing ranks with such fury and dauntless courage, as if each one had still a spare body left at home. They continually press onwards, notwithstanding many are shot down; not stopping to consider, but ever rushing forward like mad dogs, not even looking around to see whether they are followed by their comrades or not. [this part was already quoted in a different translation by Hansioux earlier in the thread]
Those with the swordsticks - called soap-knives by the Hollanders - render the same service as our lancers, in preventing all breaking through of the enemy, and in this way establishing perfect order in the ranks; but when the enemy has been thrown into disorder, the sword-bearers follow this up with fearful massacre among the fugitives." ... Note, however, that the philosopher Zhu Ziyu - who followed Coxinga's men north - later commented upon their indiscipline and disarray.

My note: This account of the use of the 'swordstick' or 'soap-knife', which is elsewhere in this thread called the Yunnan Zhanmadao, suggests that their main use was not for shock assaults (the shield-bearers were used for this), but for repelling enemy charges and killing any soldier on their own side who tried to flee or shrank back from the line. This is similar to the use of the modao in Tang armies.

BTW, I recommend Wakeman's two-volume The Great Enterprise as the best English-narrative narrative written thus far of the Ming-Qing transition and the Manchu conquest.
naruwan
QUOTE(Yun @ Sep 2 2005, 10:01 AM)
I just found this description in Frederic Wakeman's "The Great Enterprise (Volume 1)", written in 1985. Pages 1047-1048, narrating Zheng Chenggong's attack on Jiangnan in 1659:

[Coxinga's] 400 ships were filled with 250,000 well-equipped soldiers, most of his men being armed either with shield and short sword, or with a heavier battle sword attached to a meter-long stic that was wielded with both hands. Over their torsos they wore a kind of mail: a coat of overlapping iron scales which protected them against rifle bullets. The sea lord also had guns of his own, cannons and ammunition, and two companies of black soldiers - former Dutch slaves - who had learned how to fire rifles and muskets. In addition, he had an excellent corps of archers, who were quite accurate at long distances and even more formidable than the riflemen; and his shield-bearers were among the most aggressive assault forces in all of East Asia.

Footnote to the above: Coxinga's tactics have been described by eyewitnesses of his successful assault on the Dutch in Fort Provintia in souther Taiwan two years after the Yangzi expedition: "The shield-bearers were used instead of cavalry. Every tenth man of them is a leader, who takes charge of and presses his men on to force themselves into the rank of the enemy. With bent heads and their bodies hidden behind the shield, they try to break through the opposing ranks with such fury and dauntless courage, as if each one had still a spare body left at home. They continually press onwards, notwithstanding many are shot down; not stopping to consider, but ever rushing forward like mad dogs, not even looking around to see whether they are followed by their comrades or not. [this part was already quoted in a different translation by Hansioux earlier in the thread]
Those with the swordsticks - called soap-knives by the Hollanders - render the same service as our lancers, in preventing all breaking through of the enemy, and in this way establishing perfect order in the ranks; but whn the enemy has been thrown into disorder, the sword-bearers follow this up with fearful massacre among the fugitives." ... Note, however, that the philosopher Zhu Ziyu - who followed Coxinga's men north - later commented upon their indiscipline and disarray.

My note: This account of the use of the 'swordstick' or 'soap-knife', which is elsewhere in this thread called the Yunnan Zhanmadao, suggests that their main use was not for shock assaults (the shield-bearers were used for this), but for repelling enemy charges and killing any soldier on their own side who tried to flee or shrank back from the line. This is similar to the use of the modao in Tang armies.

BTW, I recommend Wakeman's two-volume The Great Enterprise as the best  English-narrative narrative written thus far of the Ming-Qing transition and the Manchu conquest.
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Great information. Thank Yun. soap-knives <-- that is a funny nick name the Dutch came up with.
Chiang Kai-shek
I am more interested in the mention of Black men in this article. Africans? What happened to them? Any descendents?
Yun
There were black slaves on the coast of south China in those days, brought by the Portuguese and the Dutch. Portuguese troops, including blacks, held Guilin against a Manchu siege in 1647 as allies of the Southern Ming.

But black slaves were known in south China even much earlier, in the Tang. See this thread: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=4742
Wujiang
If memory serves, there was a treaty that was signed which outlawed the use of rattan shields in war (because of their effectiveness against bullets of the time). Can anyone recall the year or the name of that treaty ?
TMPikachu
was laquored rattan better at stopping lead balls than iron/leather/wood?
Altaica Militarica
QUOTE(hansioux @ May 23 2005, 07:43 PM)
His armies were form by the following types of troops:

部隊裝備有盔甲、籐牌、滾被、銃砲、刀斧等。又親軍衛鎮則有收編黑奴為兵的洋槍部隊,即護衛一鎮,鄭經時期這黑人護衛鎮作為宮中衛隊及僕役用。 

The Chinese records on the Iron troops are:

設戎旗左右鎮,以林勝為左戎旗鎮,拔左衝鎮楊琦為右戎旗鎮,調各處鄉勇訓練銃器,配執銅百子花釬銃,設斬馬刀,不空歸木棍,每名兵另帶銃彈三粒在身,遇敵擲擊。

There are 6 Rattan shiled fighting methods:
1.  Roll towards the enemy formation and cut legs.
2.  Use the shield to block of arrows and stones while breeching city walls or boarding enemy ships.
3.  Using 3 man as a group, one man used the shield for protection, the other 2 would attack.
4.  A formation of Rattan shields could charge into enemy formation and initiate close combat.
5.  藤牌厝 Rattan Shield House.  A unit of Rattan shield forming roof and walls and charge.  Also called Round Formation attack.  Often used against the Qing cavalry archers or other high maneuverable enemies.
6.  Big Hat attack.

In the book 明季南略 Ming Ji Nan Lue, it described Koxinga’s Northward Push as such:

「…前隊長鎗,次團牌,第二陣『倭銃 』…而疾走如飛,突至馬前殺人。其兵三人一伍,一兵執團牌,蔽兩人,一邱斫馬,一兵砍人,甚銳,一刀揮鐵甲軍馬為兩段。蓋鑄刀時,用鐵匠百人挨遞打成此一刀,故銳特甚…鄭兵不動,俱銕甲胄銕面頭子,只露兩足,用長刀砍騎,銳不可當,射中其足,則拔箭更戰,清兵逐敗…」 此處所說的團牌即藤牌,並有鐵人及藤牌的使用。 「第一隊五十人,前有五色旗一面領之。有滾被二人;滾被者,用一大棉被厚二寸,一人執之,雙手有刀。如箭至,即張被遮候; 箭過,即捲被持刀滾進,斫人馬足,又有團牌二人。滾被、團牌此四人俱喫雙糧。」

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Dear Hansioux,

Could you provide me somedetailed info regarding these passages?

First of all, could you tell me the sources for every quotation exeptfor the quotation from "Ming ji nan lue"?

Then could you give me the full Chinese version (or the link to the source) of the description of Zheng's troops including the moment with "langyan" etc.?

And to crown it all - what is the Big Hat method of Attack?

Best regards,

Alexey.
General_Zhaoyun
Hansioux is now called "Naruwan" in CHF..
naruwan
QUOTE(Altaica Militarica @ Sep 12 2005, 10:59 PM)
Dear Hansioux,

Could you provide me somedetailed info regarding these passages?

First of all, could you tell me the sources for every quotation exeptfor the quotation from "Ming ji nan lue"?

Then could you give me the full Chinese version (or the link to the source) of the description of Zheng's troops including the moment with "langyan" etc.?

And to crown it all - what is the Big Hat method of Attack?

Best regards,

Alexey.
[snapback]4758176[/snapback]


The Han quotes in modern garmmar are from a book called 台灣人的台灣史, most of these quotes are either British, Dutch or Russian quotes translated by the author of this book, such as the one Yun kindly provided. The first hand quotes are from Ming ji nan lue.
Altaica Militarica
QUOTE(naruwan @ Sep 13 2005, 12:23 AM)
The Han quotes in modern garmmar are from a book called 台灣人的台灣史, most of these quotes are either British, Dutch or Russian quotes translated by the author of this book, such as the one Yun kindly provided.  The first hand quotes are from Ming ji nan lue.
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Which Russian sources were used? Here ini Russia we have only some passages of "Ming ji nan lue" translated in 1960-s by Mrs. Fomina, but I think (judging by Chinese original quotas) they are non-accurate. Could you make it clear?

And what about the names of British and Dutch sources?

And if I understood you properly the Chinese quotas were all from "Ming ji nan lue"?

Best regards,

Alexey.
Hoa Phau
koxinga's army are defeated by the combined filipino and spanish forces in the philippines. koxinga's men are usually doing some direct attack of armored men while the filipinos under lakandula's descendant, laksamana, uses direct and indirect attack of muskets, bows and arrows, shields out of strong wood and swords called itak. spaniards praised him and the governor general rewarded him as the commander of the fort in manila.

for me, filipinos are experienced in the art of jungle warfare. so they are expected that koxinga's men are defeated by their tactics.
Too hi Fat
You guys should go to Xiamen someday and look at the giant statue in Gulang Yu. There's a musuem there as well. There's also a bunch of CCP propaganda there so becareful about what you take into your frigile little mind.

One interesting thing one will note is the quality of the ming army. They were crap. really. Thier ships only has 1 main cannon and 1 hand fired cannon. This is terrible when you consider that the average european ship has 30. When they "annihilated" the dutch on taiwan island, they had to use 25000 men to take out 500 (or was it 800) dutch settlers. Most of the men used swords and bows and shields while the Qing army were running around with muskets. THe Ming tactic is to "Run that way" and "Scream really loud".

No wonder they got whooped at the end.
naruwan
QUOTE(Hoa Phau @ Sep 16 2005, 09:53 PM) [snapback]4758918[/snapback]
koxinga's army are defeated by the combined filipino and spanish forces in the philippines. koxinga's men are usually doing some direct attack of armored men while the filipinos under lakandula's descendant, laksamana, uses direct and indirect attack of muskets, bows and arrows, shields out of strong wood and swords called itak. spaniards praised him and the governor general rewarded him as the commander of the fort in manila.

for me, filipinos are experienced in the art of jungle warfare. so they are expected that koxinga's men are defeated by their tactics.


I think you got the wrong guy. Koxinga died before then. But if you could provide me with a source, i'd be glad to read it. I tried looking up Laksamana on google, and i guess it is still a very popular name today =_=

QUOTE(Altaica Militarica @ Sep 13 2005, 11:57 PM) [snapback]4758355[/snapback]
Which Russian sources were used? Here ini Russia we have only some passages of "Ming ji nan lue" translated in 1960-s by Mrs. Fomina, but I think (judging by Chinese original quotas) they are non-accurate. Could you make it clear?

And what about the names of British and Dutch sources?

And if I understood you properly the Chinese quotas were all from "Ming ji nan lue"?

Best regards,

Alexey.


Man, i am sorry. I remember looking up for the sources for you but somehow i didn't get to post it....

In anycase, probably way too late.

Here are the sources used in 台灣人的台灣史to Dutch till end of Koxinga rule.

Albrecht Herport: 周學普譯 鄭成功取台灣戰況
Campbell George Candidius 葉春榮譯註 荷據初期的西拉雅平埔族
W. R. Ginsel 林偉盛譯 荷蘭人在福爾摩沙的基督教教育 台灣風物四十四卷
干治士著、葉春榮譯 荷據初期的西拉雅平埔族 台灣風物四十四卷三期
中村孝志 吳密察譯 荷蘭的台灣經營 台灣風物四十一卷
中村孝志 許賢瑤譯 荷蘭統治下位於台灣中西部的Quataong村落
中村孝志 許賢瑤譯 圍繞台灣的日蘭關係
中村孝志 賴永祥、王瑞徵譯 十七世紀荷人勘查台灣金礦紀實 台灣文獻第七卷一、二期
中村孝志著 荷蘭時代的台灣番社戶口表
王華南 台語入門新階 台原出版社 1998
天下編輯著 發現台灣(一六二○年-1945) 天下報導
世界探險史 太平洋航運史
史明 台灣人四百年史 1998年四月
史明 台灣不是中國的一部分
史明 漫畫台灣人四百年史 台灣草根文化社 1994年12月
台中縣岈府出版 移墾者的腳蹤
台灣三百年史 荷西竊據時代
台灣省文獻委員會 重修台灣省通志卷一大事志 民國八三年六月
台灣全記錄 錦繡出版社
江日昇 台灣外紀
江桂珍 試論媽祖信仰與台灣移民史的關係 史博館學報
江樹生 十七世紀荷蘭人繪製的台灣老地圖 漢聲雜誌 105期
江樹生 鄭成功和蘭人在台灣最後一戰及換文締和 漢聲雜誌
余宗信 明延平王台灣海國紀
吳在野 河洛閩語縱橫談
李筱峰 劉峰松 台灣歷史閱覽
村上直次郎著 許賢瑤譯註 澎湖島上的荷蘭人 ?石古石
沈建德 台灣常識
辛逕農 郭懷一抗荷事蹟考略
國分直一 周全德譯 麻豆的歷史
周明峰 台灣簡史
周學普 鄭成功取台灣戰況
林春輝 新編圖說世界歷史
林偉盛 一六三三年的料羅灣海戰 台灣風物四十五卷四期
林偉盛 荷據時期教會工作史料選譯 台灣文獻
馬卡道民族誌 屏東縣文化資產叢書
張同湘 十七世紀荷屬東印度公司城堡介 台南文化新卅八期、卅九期
陳文德 鄭芝龍大傳
范勝雄 郭懷一抗荷事件三地點試探 台灣文獻第四十九卷第一期
翁佳音 台灣近代初期史的研究與問題 台灣文獻
曹永和 台灣早期歷史研究
莊雅仲 再現、改宗與殖民地抗爭:十七世紀荷蘭統治下台灣的殖民主義與傳教工作 台灣社會研究季刊
莊添池 鯤島台灣史話
許賢瑤 荷蘭時代的探事業再論 台灣風物四十二卷三期、四期
永積洋子著 許賢瑤譯 荷蘭的台灣貿易 台灣風物四十三卷一期、三期
連溫卿 荷蘭時代之臺灣 南瀛文獻 三卷一、二期
陳碧笙 台灣人民歷史
曾迺碩 台灣史蹟
程大學 巴達維亞城日記 台灣文獻第四十卷
程大學譯 巴達維亞城日記
黃叔璥 臺海使槎錄
楊正寬 從巡撫到省主席 台灣省政府新聞處 民國七十九年五月
楊森富 荷蘭統治下的台灣基督教 台南文化新卅七期
劉還月 尋訪台灣平埔族
劉還月李順仁等合著 尋訪凱達格蘭族
廖漢臣 台南縣下的教化事~
廖漢臣 台南縣下的教化事業 荷蘭的布教及教育
廖漢臣 台南縣歷代大事記
潘英 平埔族史略 台灣文獻 第四十四卷
賴永祥 康熙二年荷蘭來華艦隊之任務
賴永祥 郭懷一革命的一記錄
賴永祥 菲督施爾瓦之雞籠佔領報告
謝碧連 荷蘭據台時期歷任長官列述 台南文化新四十三期 八十六年六月。
顏興 鄭成功與臺南縣 南瀛文獻第三卷第三、四期
蘇同炳 李旦與鄭芝龍 台灣文獻四十二卷
國立故宮博物院 福又摩沙 十七世紀的台灣、荷蘭與東亞 二○○三年一月
山崎繁樹 野上矯介 台灣史 武陵出版社 一九八八年十一月
毛一波 南明史上的張煌言和鄭成功 台北文物 第二卷第二期
毛一波 書魯王之死與鄭成功受誣事 文獻專刊第四卷三、四期 一九五三年十二月
毛一波 浙閩公案與南澳公案  台灣文獻 第十一卷第一期
王淑貞 鄭成功的軍容及其戰績  戰鬥 第七一五期五月號一九八七年
王華南 台語入門新階 台原出版社 一九九八年八月
史 明 台灣人四百年史 草根文化出版社 一九九八年四月
    台灣先民奮鬥史 
石萬壽 明鄭的軍事行政組織 台灣文獻二十六、二十七卷第四、第一期 一九七六年
朱 鋒 李晉王與鄭延平 台灣文獻 第十二期第三卷
江日昇 台灣外紀    文化圖書公司 一九八三年十二月
江炳成 古往今來話台灣 幼獅文化事業公司 一九七八年三月
江錫賢 鄭成功舉義抗清失敗原因探討 台灣文獻 第五十卷第三期 一九九九年九月
余宗信 明延平台灣海國紀 台灣商務印書館 一九三七年五月初版
吳宗慈 明鄭部將抗清始末 文獻專刊第五卷 一九五四年六月二十七日
宋增璋 三藩之役鄭經西征始末 台灣文獻 第二十七卷第三期
李筱峰 劉峰松 台灣歷史閱覽 自立晚報社文化出版部 一九九八年二月
李騰嶽 鄭成功的死因攷 文獻專刊 第一卷
周雪玉 施琅攻台的功與過 台原出版社 一九九○年二月
林子候 明鄭對日關係與存銀事件 台灣文獻
林再復 鄭成功驅荷復台與鄭氏治台政策之研究 聯合學報第五、六期一九八八年十一月、一九八九年十一月
林道生 鄭成功治台期的原住民政策 出海文化雙月刊 一九九六年一月
林熊祥 陳世慶 賜姓成功事蹟及明鄭一代有關史實年表 文獻專刊第一卷
金成前 甘煇周全斌劉國軒與明鄭三世 台灣文獻 十六卷第四期
金成前 施琅黃梧降清對明鄭之影響 台灣文獻 十七卷第三期
金成前 陳永華馮錫範與明鄭後期之成敗台灣文獻 十七卷第四期
金成前 蔡政忠事鄭氏平議 台灣文獻 第二十二卷第二期
金成前 鄭耿交惡之前因後果 台灣文獻 第十七卷第一期
金成前 鄭經誘殺鄭泰與明鄭之存亡 台灣文獻 十九卷第三期
范勝雄 鄭成功荷姬考 台灣文獻第四十九卷第一期
徐雪霞 明鄭時期漢人在台灣的拓展 台南文化 新十八期 一九八四年十二月。
浦廉一 延平王戶官鄭泰長崎存銀之研究 台灣風物第十一卷第三期 一九六一年
張 菼 鄭成功的公牘 台灣文獻三十五卷第二期
張 菼 鄭成功的家書 台灣文獻三十五卷第一期
張 菼 台灣藤牌兵討俄研究及天地會僧兵征藏傳說的比較 台灣文獻十七卷第三期
張 菼 鄭成功的五商   台灣文獻三十六卷第二期
張 菼 鄭荷和約簽訂日期之考訂及鄭成功復台之戰概述 台灣文獻第十八卷第三期
張雄潮 鄭成功於金廈外圍的戰略與戰術 台灣文獻 第十三卷第一期
張雄潮 鄭成功的稟賦與志業造就之因素 台灣文獻 第十三卷第二期
張雄潮 鄭成功對將吏的統御才略 台灣文獻 十四卷二期
戚嘉林 台灣史 農學股份有限公司 一九八五年九月
曹永和 台灣早期歷史研究 聯經出版事公司 一九七九年七月
曹永和 從荷蘭文獻談鄭成功之研究 台灣文獻 第十二卷第一期
曹永和 鄭氏時代之台灣墾殖 台灣銀行季刊第六卷第一期
莊金德 清初嚴禁沿海人民偷渡來台始末 台灣文獻第十五卷
莊金德 鄭氏軍糧問題的研究 台灣文獻第十二卷第一期
莊金德 鄭清和議始末 台灣文獻第十二卷第四期
莊添池 鯤島台灣史話 一九七一年八月
連雅堂 台灣通史 黎明文化事業股份有限公司 二○○一年四月
郭海鳴 清代以前台灣土地之開墾 台灣文獻第九卷第二期
郭堯齡 鄭成功與金門 金門縣文獻委員會 一九六九年九月
陳水源 台灣歷史的軌跡 晨星出版有限公司 二○○○年十二月
陳世慶 明鄭前後之金門兵事 台灣文獻第六卷第一期
陳碧笙 台灣人民歷史 人間出版社 一九九六年十二月
彭 歌 民族大節。千秋功罪 談叛明降清的施琅 歷史月刊三十八期
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Yun
QUOTE
One interesting thing one will note is the quality of the ming army. They were crap. really. Thier ships only has 1 main cannon and 1 hand fired cannon. This is terrible when you consider that the average european ship has 30. When they "annihilated" the dutch on taiwan island, they had to use 25000 men to take out 500 (or was it 800) dutch settlers. Most of the men used swords and bows and shields while the Qing army were running around with muskets. THe Ming tactic is to "Run that way" and "Scream really loud".


Not exactly true. The Ming government armies did fear putting cannons on their ships because of the danger of barrell explosions, and placed their cannons separately on rafts instead, according to Zhao Shizhen's "Shenqi Huowen" (a sequel to Shenqi Pu, written in the 1590s). But pirates like Zheng Zhilong had no such qualms. He had several tens of large ships armed with 16 to 36 cannon. He also was a skilful user of fire tactics, which one usually associates only with Chinese riverine warfare. In 1627, 1630, and 1639, he used fire-ships to destroy several Dutch warships off the Fujian coast. Zheng Chenggong learned this tactic from his father and used it to destroy the Dutch warship S. Gravelande during the conquest of Taiwan.

Also, the Ming armies had as many arquebuses as the Qing, and in innovative designs too. Refer to the thread on the Musket-Arquebus website.
naruwan
QUOTE(Yun @ Oct 10 2005, 06:36 PM) [snapback]4764327[/snapback]
Not exactly true. The Ming government armies did fear putting cannons on their ships because of the danger of barrell explosions, and placed their cannons separately on rafts instead, according to Zhao Shizhen's "Shenqi Huowen" (a sequel to Shenqi Pu, written in the 1590s). But pirates like Zheng Zhilong had no such qualms. He had several tens of large ships armed with 16 to 36 cannon. He also was a skilful user of fire tactics, which one usually associates only with Chinese riverine warfare. In 1627, 1630, and 1639, he used fire-ships to destroy several Dutch warships off the Fujian coast. Zheng Chenggong learned this tactic from his father and used it to destroy the Dutch warship S. Gravelande during the conquest of Taiwan.

Also, the Ming armies had as many arquebuses as the Qing, and in innovative designs too. Refer to the thread on the Musket-Arquebus website.


Yun, it is always the impression that Zhi-bi battle in 3k was perhaps the largest naval battle in China. Is that true? or is it just naval battles are generally ignored?

I think the Mongols invasion of Japan probably is a lot larger. But that would be more alone the line of Corean v.s. Japan naval battles.
Conan the destroyer
QUOTE(naruwan @ Oct 22 2005, 12:23 AM) [snapback]4766801[/snapback]
Yun, it is always the impression that Zhi-bi battle in 3k was perhaps the largest naval battle in China. Is that true? or is it just naval battles are generally ignored?

I think the Mongols invasion of Japan probably is a lot larger. But that would be more alone the line of Corean v.s. Japan naval battles.


I had always thought that the battle of Poyang lake was the largest. Though I could be wrong.
Conan the destroyer
I've heard that some Japanese authours believe Koxinga's "iron men" were Japanese mercenaries. Is there any truth to this?
mudd
QUOTE(Hoa Phau @ Sep 17 2005, 12:53 PM) [snapback]4758918[/snapback]
koxinga's army are defeated by the combined filipino and spanish forces in the philippines. koxinga's men are usually doing some direct attack of armored men while the filipinos under lakandula's descendant, laksamana, uses direct and indirect attack of muskets, bows and arrows, shields out of strong wood and swords called itak. spaniards praised him and the governor general rewarded him as the commander of the fort in manila.

for me, filipinos are experienced in the art of jungle warfare. so they are expected that koxinga's men are defeated by their tactics.



I'm not sure but I've read an ebook where it states that Koxinga died before reaching the islands.
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