Yun I took this quote from you, on the Who is the most despotic emperor? post.

I would like to know when it all happened, why it happened, and all that fun stuff. I mean what did she do with the concubines, did she get male ones? Did she get a ligimate heir? Because if she married and got kids, wouldn't her husband just become Emporer?

OK, this empress Wu Zetian is extremely manipulative and a cold-clear-rational-mind that makes her an adroit political manoueverer and skilled administrator.

She was simply a concubine of Tang Taizong that Emperor Gao Zhong of Tang retrieved from the nunnery (she was forced to go to a nunnery when Tai Zhong died, but the emperor Gao Zhong had her fished out of that place again) and was given a title rank of Gui Fei or something. She latter killed her own daughter and blamed it on the empress. The emperor believed Wu and deposed the empress and made Wu the new empress. Wu latter manipulated the emperor against his own sons, and he banished his crown prince and heir apparent on counts of treason.

Later, Emperor Gao Zhong died and Wu proclaimed herself the new Emperor of the Wu Zhou dynasty. She is not just an empress. She is an EMPEROR. She executed a couple of her sons who shown signs of discontent and many other diehard supporters of the Tang royal house of Li. She also greatly promoted Buddhism as well as scholarly pursuits and improved the examination system such that even the sons of peasants could aspire to become a high official as well. She listened to some clever and skilled advisors such as Di Ren Jie and Zhang Jian Zhi, but at the same time she also made use of cruel and evil judges such as Lai Jun Cheng to get rid of political opponents for her.

Her personal life also paralleled that of most emperors. She is extremely promiscuous. It was recorded that during her short interval as a nun she had a secret affair with a monk and when she became the emperor she gave him a lot of bonuses. This monk would later abuse his position and rape girls with a gang of despicable men and thus he would be executed. Wu also had lotsa male lovers which included captains of the guard, her personal doctor and some she even shared with her own daughter!! The most notorious of her lovers would the brothers Zhang Zhong Bao (I forgot the names of the other ones). They served Wu when she's in her later years (60++). They were extremely disrespectful to the officials in Wu's court, and everyone gives them a huge berth except for Di Ren Jie who have absolutely no respect for them. The brothers thus complained to Wu, but Wu reprimanded them and told them harshly that even she had to give Di a wide berth herself!

There's also some secret histories that said that Wu is very much in love with Di Ren Jie but Di Ren Jie maintained his standing and did not bend to serve the emperor's will, but rather that of the people. Once when he was accused of treason by Lai Jun Cheng he simply admitted. Wu was rather surprised and demanded that she oversee the trial herself. Eventually, it is clear that Di is not guilty and he was set free. If Di had not admitted he would probably be tortured by the evil Lai. In another occasion, Wu ordered the building of great pagodas and Buddha statues, and gave orders that each monk in the nation should contribute. However, Di who was the supervisor of the project refuse to even get started. Wu thus demanded an explanation. Di thus said that the contributions that monk provide are just a portion of what they exact from the people. The money thus ultimately comes from the poor peasants who wish to have a better life. If he was to implement this the monks would abuse their positions to get money from the people, and thus he refuse to get started. Wu was unhappy but didn't do anything to Di.

Zhang Jian Zhi would eventually lead an uprising against Wu when Wu was old and ill. Zhang Jian Zhi supported the prince (I forgot his name) and demanded Wu to return the throne to her son. Wu had no choice but to capitulate. Btw, her male concubines were killed by the vengeful palace guards...She died at 82.

Just to add on: Empress (or Emperor) Wu Zhao ran into a constitutional dead-end when she founded her Zhou dynasty, because if she passed the throne to her son he would be a Li, and the Tang dynasty would start all over again. And if she passed her throne to a daughter, she would still still be a Li and furthermore would also take the family name of her husband.

Wu Zhao tried to get around this by appointing her nephew (brother's son) Wu Chengsi as her heir. In 698, she sent Wu Chengsi's son Yanxiu to the Tujue for him to marry the Tujue Kaghan's daughter in a marriage alliance. But the Tujue Kaghan refused, saying, "I asked to marry my daughter to a prince of the Li house, so what's a Wu doing here? Are you the son of an emperor, or aren't you?" The Kaghan locked Wu Yanxiu up and sent a letter back to the Zhou court, saying, "This Wu boy isn't royalty, and isn't fit to marry my daughter. I won't settle for anything less than an emperor's son." He also threatened to invade Hebei if snubbed again.

Wu Chengsi and his brother Wu Sansi were the only nephews that Wu Zhao had, and they believed that the throne should go to one of them. Wu Zhao now changed her mind and decided that Wu Sansi was a better choice as emperor. But Di Renjie stepped in and asked a question that put her in a spot: "Which is a woman closer to, her son or her nephew?" He went on to argue, "If Your Majesty makes a son the heir, Your Majesty will still be enjoying offerings in the temple many generations from now. But no one has ever heard of a nephew making offerings to his aunt in the family temple." Wu Zhao risked becoming a hungry ghost if she did not make her son the heir to the throne!

Di Renjie continued arguing about the necessity of passing the throne to a son of the Li house, and extolling the past glories of the Tang dynasty, until Wu Zhao finally relented and appointed her eldest son Li Zhe as her heir (his name was then changed back to Li Xian). 15 years ago, Li Zhe had been stripped of his position as Emperor by his mother after just 35 days, and was in exile. When he returned to Luoyang, he prostrated himself before his mother in tears, bu Wu Zhao pointed to Di Renjie and said, "He's the one you should thank." Wu Chengsi was so dismayed by this turn of events that he fell badly ill and eventually died.

However, in her last years Wu Zhao showed signs of wanting to pass the throne to her lover Zhang Changzong (he and his brother Zhang Yizhi had grown so powerful that they had even made Li Xian's son and daughter commit suicide for criticising them). Although Wu Zhao made no move to remove Li Xian from his position as heir, the ambitions of Zhang Changzong and his brother were increasingly apparent.

In 705, the 82-year-old Wu Zhao was forced to hand over the throne to Li Xian by a group of ministers led by Zhang Jianzhi. They surrounded the palace with 500 palace guards and killed Zhang Changzong and Zhang Yizhi on charges of "treason". Then Li Xian came up and demanded that Wu Zhao hand the throne over. Wu Zhao had no choice but to agree. Two days later, she officially handed the throne over to Li Xian. The name of the dynasty was changed back to Tang, and Wu Zhao was given the ceremonial title of "Zetian Dasheng Huangdi" (Great Holy Emperor Zetian) - hence the name Wu Zetian by which she is commonly known to history.

That winter, the old and broken Wu Zhao died. On her deathbed, she supposedly left instructions to change her title from "Zetian Dasheng Huangdi" to "Zetian Dasheng Huanghou" (Great Holy Empress Zetian). Her dream of founding a dynasty had ended, so what was the use of the title "emperor" to her?

However, Wu Zhao's legacy would live on for a while more. Li Xian's empress, Empress Wei, conspired with her lover Wu Sansi (Wu Zhao's nephew) to set herself up as a female Emperor after Li Xian's death. Also in the conspiracy was Li Xian's daughter the Princess of Anle, who wanted to become Empress Wei's heir (she later married Wu Yanxiu, whom the Tujue Kaghan had rejected). In 707, the Crown Prince Li Chongjun rose up to overthrow the Empress, and managed to kill Wu Sansi but was then defeated and killed. [Chongjun was not Empress Wei's own son - her son Chongrun had been killed for insulting Zhang Changzong] In 710, Empress Wei poisoned her own husband Li Xian. Li Longji, Li Xian's nephew, then led a coup that killed Empress Wei and the Princess of Anle, putting his father Li Dan (Li Xian's brother) on the throne.

However, Li Dan's sister the Princess of Taiping (a daughter of Wu Zhao) had become very powerful at court, and she herself had ambitions of following her mother's footsteps. In 712, Li Dan passed the throne to Li Longji (Tang Xuanzong), and the conflict between Longji and the Princess of Taiping reached breaking point. The Princess tried to poison Li Longj, but the plot failed. Then in 713, Li Longji massacred all of the Princess' followers and forced her to commit suicide. It was only then, 8 years after the death of Wu Zhao, that her ghost ceased to haunt the politics of the Tang dynasty.

I heard that Japan had the earliest Empress in East asia.....Followed by Korea....which follows to China

Japan had an early tradition of empresses succeeding to the throne after the death of their husband (the emperor), and eventually passing the throne back to their sons. The semi-mythical Empress Jingu is even supposed to have led an invasion of Korea in the 3rd century while pregnant with the child of her late husband the emperor (this son was later deified as the Japanese war god Hachiman).

In actual history, the practice of empresses succeeding their husbands (though not always directly) began with Emperor Suiko. Suiko was the daughter of Emperor Kimmei (r. 539-571), wife of the next emperor Bidatsu (r. 572-585), and sister of Emperor Yomei (r. 585-587) who succeeded Bidatsu. Yomei was succeeded by Emperor Sushun (r. 587-592), but when Sushun was murdered by the powerful courtier Soga no Umako in 592, Suiko was made Emperor by the Soga clan. Her appointed heir was the famous reformer Shotoku Taishi, son of her brother Emperor Yomei. But Shotoku Taishi died 7 years before Suiko did, so he was unable to succeed to the throne.

Suiko reigned from 592 to 629, and was then succeeded by Emperor Jomei (r. 629-641). Upon the death of Jomei, his 49-year-old empress reigned for three years as Emperor Kogyoku. Kogyoku was a shaman, which suggests that she played a religious role in the state like the earliest Yamato ruler who is mentioned in Chinese records, the Priestess-Queen Himiko of the 3rd century. Kogyoku was pressured into giving up the throne to her brother Emperor Kotoku in 645. After Kotoku's death in 654, she became Emperor again with the title of Saimei. She was already 60 years old, and she shared power with her son Naka no Oe, who formally acceded as Emperor Tenji in 668 (seven years after Kogyoku/Saimei's death in 661).

The next female emperor was Empress Jito, a daughter of Tenji who reigned after the death of her husband Emperor Temmu in 686. She was not formally installed as emperor until 690, but even during the reign of Temmu (when she was known as Empress Uno), she had ruled jointly with him. Because of this Temmu left the post of Great Minister vacant throughout his reign. After seven years of rule, Jito abdicated in favour of her grandson, who reigned as Emperor Mommu (r. 697-707). She remained powerful in state affairs, with the title Dajo Tenno (Chinese Taishang Tianhuang - Grand Emperor).

After Mommu's death at the age of 26, his mother Princess Abe ascended the throne as Emperor Gemmei. Abe was another daughter of Tenji who had been borne to him by the sister of Empress Jito's mother - an emperor marrying two sisters was not unheard of even in China, but marrying your half-sister's son was not considered ethical by the Chinese! Gemmei abdicated in 715 and put her daughter on the throne as Emperor Gensho.

In 724, Gensho was succeeded by Mommu's son (hence her nephew and Gemmei's grandson) Obito, as Emperor Shomu (r. 724-749). Shomu's mother was a daughter of the powerful courtier Fujiwara Fubito, and so his accession received much support from the Fujiwara clan. Shomu also married another daughter of Fubito (his aunt!), and this concubine, Asukabehime, bore him a son. This son was named Crown Prince at birth, the first time this had happened in Japan. But he died in less than a year, and another concubine had recently borne a son to the emperor. To secure their position, the Fujiwara forced the court to raise Asukabehime's rank to Empress, even though this position had always been reserved for princesses of the imperial family (in other words, emperors took their half-sisters or cousins as empresses). In 729, Asukabehime became Empress Komyo, but she bore no more sons to Shomu.

In 740, Shomu made Empress Asukabehime/Komyo's only surviving child, a 21-year-old daughter, Japan's first crown princess. In 749, he abdicated the throne and she succeeded him as Emperor Koken. However, Koken's power was challenged by the powerful Fujiwara Nakamaro, who enjoyed the support of Komyo (now Empress Dowager). In 757, Nakamaro removed the crown prince chosen by Shomu on his deathbed (he had died in 756) and replaced him with another prince related to the Fujiwara by marriage. In 758 Nakamaro forced Koken to abdicate in favour of this prince, who became Emperor Junnin.

However, Great Emperor Koken made a comeback in 762, issuing an edict to attack Nakamaro's deeds and question the legitimacy of Junnin. She announced that in future, all important affairs of state would be handled by her, and only minor ceremonial functions would be taken care of by Junnin. In 764, Nakamaro plotted to replace Junnin with another more forceful candidate, but Koken reacted quickly by sending guards to capture him. Nakamaro was banished and later killed. Junnin was deposed and Koken took the throne again as Emperor Shotoku (r. 764-770).

In about 758, Koken/Shotoku had been healed from an illness by the Buddhist priest Dokyo, and he became her religious mentor. It is said that in her reign as Shotoku, she was prepared to pass the throne over to Dokyo after her death. The popular image of this incident is that Shotoku and Dokyo were having an affair, but other historians have argued that Shotoku actually respected and admired Dokyo's learning without any romantic or sexual element to the relationship. In any case, after Shotoku's death the Fujiwara intervened and sent Dokyo into exile. They then convened a council and made a ruling that Empresses would no longer occupy the imperial throne. The superficial reason was the danger of another Dokyo incident, but the real motive was probably that the Fujiwara were planning to dominate the imperial court by marrying their daughters to future emperors as empresses, so that the reigning emperor would always have a Fujiwara father-in-law. It was impossible for a Fujiwara to occupty the throne directly, either as emperor or empress, so the Fujiwara had no interest in seeing an empress on the throne because that would mean she was not one of theirs.

Because of this, from 770 onwards no empress ruled over Japan again, until the Tokugawa period a thousand years later, when two women did reign as puppet emperors under the dominance of the Tokugawa shoguns. But from 592 to 770 Japan had six female emperors who had eight reigns (two of them reigned twice), which is half of the total of 16 reigns in that period.

(Material for this post was taken from "The Male Present Versus the Female Past: Historians and Japan's Female Emperors", an article by E. Patricia Tsurumi)

:D:D:D:D:D

I am sure that Koizumi is up with this historical invention to brainwash his people back to WW2 with his "East Asia Empire yeah we don't discrimiate asians but we kill and rape all of them and make them our slaves" idea! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yes, whether the early Yamato state of Japan ever invaded Korea, not to mention occupied territory there, is still debated. The Japanese "Kojiki" (their earliest historical work, written in 712 AD) says that Japan held a base in Minama (Kaya in Japanese), near modern Pusan, until about 562 AD. Many Korean historians are sceptical that this actually happened, and maintain that Kaya was an independent Korean state with diplomatic and commercial ties with Yamato Japan.

The Nihon Shoki puts the invasion of Korea under Empress Jingu at around 200 AD, but there is no such record in the Chinese and Korean histories. The whole story, in which the Korean king is awed into submission and made an oath to send annual tributes of 80 boats with gold, silver, cloth and other valuables items, is probably a mere myth. However, one historian, Anthony Bryant suggests that such an invasion actually took place in 366. From 390 to 400, the Japanese also sent armies to help the Korean state of Paekche to fight against Silla and Koguryo, but were defeated by King Kwanggaeto of Koguryo.

Wu Zetian was really a ruthless Empress. But still, I would rate her as a good and capable ruler.

All powerful, capable and ambitious empresses or empress dowagers in Chinese history have had to be even more ruthless than their male counterparts, because they have had to face much more opposition from their male courtiers. This flies in the face of traditional Chinese notions of womanly virtue, which is why strong-willed women like Lu Zhi (Western Han), Jia Nanfeng (Western Jin), Empress Dowager Hu (Northern Wei), Wu Zetian and Cixi have all been condemned while more self-effacing empresses like Empress Zhangsun (Tang Taizong's wife) and Empress Ma (Zhu Yuanzhang's wife) have been praised for being content simply to give their husbands good advice from behind the scenes. Furthermore, Chinese historians never fail to bring up the sexual promiscuity of the strong empresses while generally taking for granted the emperors' use of their own absolute power to collect large numbers of concubines.

In the West, however, the attitude towards strong female rulers has been far more tolerant - as seen for example in historical assessments of Elizabeth and Catherine the Great. While male chauvinism was always alive and well in Europe, the European intellectual was not constrained by the Confucian patriarchal ethic and was thus able to accept and respect the idea of a female ruler.

Actually, there is a powerful empress dowager called Deng Sui, but neither is she known for promiscuity...She is famous for overworking and dying at the age of 36.

I would like to point out that Wu Zetian's grave has a blank tablet. I do not know how true the reason why it was blank, but she wanted the people to judge her themselves according some legends.

Yes, I've heard of this "wordless stele" too. The implied message was that "History will be my judge".

Deng Sui 邓绥 (80-121 AD) was the Empress of Emperor Hedi (Liu Zhao) of the Eastern Han, and became Empress Dowager at the death of Hedi (in 105 AD) when she was only 25 and Hedi was 27. She was beautiful, kind and wise, but had no son of her own. Hedi had two sons by his concubines - the elder had a terminal illness, and the the younger was just three months old. Deng Sui decided to make the younger son Hedi's successor, but he too died within a year (his posthumous title was Emperor Shangdi). A 12-year-old nephew of Hedi was then put on the throne (later known as Emperor Andi), while court affairs remained in the hands of Deng Sui. Deng Sui believed strongly in Mencius' doctrine that "Only the virtuous are fit to rule", and set a fine example of virtue as Empress Dowager.

But after her death in 121, Andi proved to be a weak ruler and relied on the less scrupulous relatives of his wife, Empress Yan. This empress was no paragon of virtue and although like Deng Sui she was childless, she poisoned the only concubine who had borne Andi a son, and then had the son himself demoted from the position of Crown Prince. Her own candidate, a nephew of Andi, reigned for only a few months before being killed in a eunuch-led coup. The eunuchs then restored the former Crown Prince to the throne - he was the Emperor Shundi, then aged 11. The decline of the Eastern Han began from this point, with the next few emperors being young and short-lived, while eunuchs and imperial in-laws (the relatives of empresses) jockeyed for power in the court. When 14-year-old Huandi succeeded to the throne in 146 and managed to live for another 22 years, the end had already begun, and Huandi only made it all the more certain when he left power in the hands of the eunuchs.

If the Eastern Han had had a few more good Empress Dowagers like Deng Sui, the wars of the Three Kingdoms might never have happened.

A nice picture of Deng Sui:

(from the website http://www.946.com.cn/tmtk/zhouli.htm - painting by Zou Li 邹莉: http://www.c2000.com.cn/zouli/main01/zlyyt.htm )

Article in Chinese about Deng Sui:
http://ny.henanews.org.cn/xinye/dengsui.htm

As you all know, Wu Zetian was the 1st female emperor (empress) in chinese history. Her political ruthlessness allowed her to ascend the throne of the Tang dynasty.

I've been reading an article about how many lovers she had at http://heritage.tom.com/1053/2004716-23830.html . It tells that since an emperor could have many wives and concubines, why can't an empress has many men or husband? Perhaps, Wu Zetian was trying to prove history accomplishment of the social reform but she never 'married' again after Gaozong's death. However, she kept many male lovers at the backcourt to serve her needs after she became an empress.

Among the famous one are Xue Huaiyi 薛怀义, who was an old time lover during the times when Wu Zetian was a nun at Ganye Monastery. However, Xue Huiyi was later killed by Wu Zetian. Later Wu Zetian had another two lovers (the brothers Zhang Changzong 张昌宗 and Zhang Yizhi 张易之)

Nevertheless this, compared to the 40,000 concubines of Tang Xuanzong was quite little... does anyone know exactly how many lovers Wu Zetian had?

Hey...that website of Chinese Empress paintings is awesome...
And I never thought that lady Dong E, high ranking concubine of Emperor Shun Zhi of Qing dynasty ever existed...I thought she's just some random character made up in the TV show of Xiao Zhuang Mi Shi...looks like I gotta read up more about her. She's played by a very beautiful lady in that series.

Although the story that Wu was the real murderer of her baby is often told by TV series, I believe that this is only one of the possibilities. Historians often tell the story as if the guilt of Wu Zetian as the real murderer is proved beyond question, and that it should be obvious that Wu killed her daughter in order to frame Empress Wang. However it is important to bear in mind that these historians were always hostile to the future Empress Wu and one may be inclined to wonder about the truth of their story. It should also be noted that the murder of the baby princess was not listed as one of the official reasons for the deposition of Empress Wang (the official reason was that she had no sons, and there was also a charge of sorcery - the murder of the princess was not even mentioned as the reason for deposition), so why would Wu Zetian take such a big risk by killing her own child if she can't even be sure that it will lead to Empress Wang's fall? One should also bear in mind that medical science in the 7th century was not as advanced as it is nowadays, so the infant mortality rate was high, and many people died suddenly from unknown causes. It is very possible that the child died naturally, and Wu Zetian seized the opportunity to incriminate Empress Wang.

About the death of her sons - it is my knowledge that her first son (Li Hung) died at quite a young age, and many people speculate that he was killed by Wu Zetian. However, have they thought about the fact that Li Hung was never a very healthy man, and was often sick? Also, by killling Li Hung, Wu Zetian was not actually achieving anything, since if her first son died, then her second son would become Crown Prince, so what is the point?

As to her second son (Li Xian), I believe that he was killed on the orders of Wu Zetian (and Tang Gaozong?) due to the fact that he planned to rebel - there was evidence that he was buying weapons and training troops secretly

I have always been curious about why Wu Zetian chose her successor to be Tang Zhongzong.

Both her (remaining) sons, Tang Zhongzong and Tang Ruizong had been Crown Prince at some point during her reign. However, her daughter Princess Taiping, who was more capable than either of her two brothers, had never been Crown Princess. Sure, there had never been a Crown Princess before, but this should not be a big issue for someone who was China's first and only female emperor!

It was recorded in history that during Tang Ruizong's reign, the person with power was actually Princess Taiping, with no important decisions being made without her consent. Tang Zhongzong was also quite weak, giving in to any of his wife's requests.

Therefore, I have some difficulty trying to understand why Wu Zetian chose her sons over her daughter, who was definitely more capable. Furthermore, I believe that the Zhou dynasty MAY have lasted longer if Taiping was named the heir to the throne. I think that being a woman, Taiping would feel less inclined to be loyal to her father's (as opposed to her mother's) lineage and revert back to the Tang Dynasty.

Taiping could have taken on the surname Wu (as did Tang Ruizong for a while), and the law could be changed so that the (male) spouses and any children of the (female) emperor would have to carry on the (female) emperor's surname - i.e. Wu.
It's not like Wu Zetian pays much attention to what is "right" according to tradition, so changing this law should not be a big problem

Tang Zhongzong (who actually succeeded Wu Zetian) changed the dynasty back to Tang. I think this is due to both external pressure from government officials, and his loyalty to his father's lineage. Princess Taiping, being of a stronger character and a female, may have reacted differently.

What does everyone else think?

Li Xian2 李贤 (not to be confused his brother Tang Zhongzong, Li Xian3 李显), was deposed, exiled and murdered for directing the assassination of Ming Chongyan, a Daoist priest and lackey of Wu Zetian who had made a physiognomical prediction that Li Xian was not suitable to be emperor.



Princess Anle later tried to persuade her father Tang Zhongzong to do just that - make her Crown Princess. When he declined, she plotted with her mother Empress Wei to murder him. I am not sure myself why Princess Taiping did not go as far as Princess Anle, or why Wu Zetian didn't let her, but perhaps the answer lies in the fact that daughters cannot make ritual offerings to their parents. As I mentioned in an earlier post:

The harem structure varies with the dynasty, and sometimes even with individual emperors.
When Wu Zetian first entered the Tang palace, she had the title of Cai-Ren, which was 5th rank. In the Tang dynasty, the standard harem structure was as follows
(For the chinese titles, please refer website: http://www15.brinkster.com/orientalempire/harem.htm)
Note: you will have to load pictures, but do not need Chinese installed on your computer

1 person: Empress

4 people: Fei (1st rank)
(Gui-Fei / Shu-Fei / De-Fei / Xian-Fei)

9 x Bin (2nd rank)
(Zhao-Yi / Zhao Rong / Zhao-Yuan / Xiu-Yi / Xiu-Rong / Xiu-Yuan / Chong-Yi / Chong-Rong / Chong-Yuan)

9 people: Jie-Yu (3rd rank)
9 people: Mei-Ren (4th rank)
9 people: Cai-Ren (5th rank)
27 people: Bao-Lin (6th rank)
27 people: Yu-Nu (7th rank)
27 people: Cai-Nu (8th rank)


However, in the later periods, Tang Xuanzong added other ranks to his harem with concubines such as Hui-Fei, Mei-Fei etc
But when Tang Gaozong tried to give Wu Zetian the rank of Chen-Fei, he was opposed by his ministers, who stated that there can only be 4 Fei.....weird?!

i believe Grand Empress Dowager Xiao Zhuang, KangXi's grand mother can also be considered a good ruler, since she did in fact help rule the country during her son and grandsons reign.

although she was more behind the curtains, but if she had more ambition she would have been a great emperor.

i remember reading some where that said she help KangXi defeat Obai and reclaim his power.

One of the stories I read had Wu Zetian being recruited into the palace as little better than a maid. However fortune smiled on her when the Emperor happened to notice her while she was attending to him during toilet. He at that point asked her to enjoy the Clouds and the Rains with him and subsequently appointed her as an official concubine.

I don't think that this story is reliable (it sounds like something that could happen in a Wu Zetian movie or TV series).
I have read one of the official Tang history records (Xin Tang Shu, or Jiu Tang Shu.......forget which one), where it states that Wu Zetian entered Tang Taizong's harem at the age of 14 as a Cai-Ren. There was nothing mentioned about her being a maid

I believe my use of the term maid is incorrect.

Zunjing de China History Forum members,

I have always found Wu Zetian to be one of the most interesting women in Chinese History. Despite being a female, Wu Zetian founded her own dynasty, ruling in her own name, and not sending out orders through her husband or son like other Empress Dowagers have in the past. How can something unprecedented and unrepeated not be so interesting?

I personally find how Wu Zetian intended to keep her dynasty much more interesting than how she forged an Empire. Being a patriarchal society, of course, everyone takes after their father’s surname. This proved to be a major issue for Wu Zetian as she will have no direct heir. She cannot pass the throne to her children because they have a different surname, which would mark the end of her dynasty. The only way to keep the dynasty was to make one of her nephews the heir. However, nephews won’t offer rituals to deceased aunts, so Wu Zetian definitely will be a hungry ghost. I love how brother Yun had stated that she ran into a “Constitutional Dead-end” after founding the dynasty. That was the perfect diction to explain her situation. Even though she had never thought highly of her sons, I would assume that she liked them better than her nephews. Her nephews were more capable, but it was the opposite when we talk about virtues. So, when Prime Minister Di Renji supported Tang Zhongzong as the new crown prince, Wu Zetian reluctantly gave in because he had brought up a really good point that she could not overlook.

Obviously, the direct bloodline was of greater importance to Wu Zetian than her dynasty since she chose her successor to be Tang Zhongzong. To be completely fair, her two remaining sons were very weak, and unworthy of being an Emperor in many aspects. Of course, they were intelligent and virtuous, but they really lacked the courage and determination of a great Emperor. I guess it would not be that surprising to see them somewhat like their father, Tang Gaozong. Of course, some blames can be put on Wu Zetian for not grooming them into capable princes, but not a lot of leaders can maintain a prosperous Empire and bring up a good successor at the same time.

Like other members in here, I have also wondered as to why Wu Zetian did not create Princess Taiping as Crown Princess. Some years ago, Wu Zetian deposed Tang Zhongzong because he proved to be easily dominated by his wife, Empress Wei. Her youngest son, Tang Ruizong was even weaker than his older brother, as he abdicated in favor of his mother. It was clear that it would have been very difficult for either one of them to make a decent Emperor, and maintain a prosperous nation.

Being the first female monarch, the thought of having a Crown Princess has to be too good for Wu Zetian not to try, especially since Princess Taiping was far more capable than her two brothers. The only reason that I can think of would be the opposition from officials. I mean do you think that they would support another female monarch? I think they cannot even wait to get rid of the first one!

Before I make anymore comments, I would like to ask if Wu Zetian and Princess Taiping actually had a good relationship with each other. Wu Zetian was not a very compassionate woman, making her children feel very distant from her. From what I have read in books, I get the impression that Princess Taiping was much closer to her brothers and her father’s lineage. So, I think she would still revert back to the Tang Dynasty if she ascended to the throne. Let’s not forget that Wu Zetian identified herself as a “Wu,” and I don’t think that she was that close to her mother’s lineage either. Therefore, making Princess Taiping the next Emperor will only solve the problem temporarily.

As for children taking after their mother’s surname, that idea would have been too radical for other people to take. I think that even Wu Zetian would not dare to think of this idea because it is really impossible. So, I guess Wu Zetian finally realized that by being a woman, she can only do everything for herself, and not for her entire clan of Wu. She had to surrender to fate!

I agree that Princess Taiping had a much stronger personality than Tang Zhongzong, but she still would have reverted back to the Tang Dynasty because she belonged to the Li family, and not the Wu family.

I would really appreciate any questions or comments?

Xie Xie,

About why Wu Zetian did not install any of her daughter as heir to the throne, I could only speculate two possible rationale.

First, Wu's own position to the throne owed a large part to her being empress of Emperor Gaozong, an undisputed legitimate ruler, and bolstered by her being mother of Gaozong's heirs.

Second, while Princess Taiping was said to be capable, there was no account demonstrating her contribution to the running of the country. Instead, her abilities were reflected through her politickings for power, and there were records of her greed leading her to break the law to enrich herself.

While we have to take into account that those who recorded events for history would be prejudiced, I think we have to consider Wu Zetian had made undeniable contributions to the state while her daughter had not shown the same inclination.

We could suppose that Wu Zetian's contribution to the state was not wholly selfless - but rather she saw she needed to prove herself capable to others to convince them that it was right for her to hold the reins of power in a deeply chauvinistic society.

Unfortunately, her daughter seemed to show no signs of realising of the need to cultivate an image of a *capable and caring* leader.

It was unfair that women needed to justify themselves but not men, but that was how it was with society then.

Zunjing de Snowybeagle Xian Sheng,

Thank you very much for sharing with us your two possible rationales. As usual, you have always thought of very profound analysis!

You are right; even though Wu Zetian officially declared herself Emperor and had the dynastic name changed to “Zhou,” her own position owed a large part to the fact that she was actually a woman from the Li family as she was actually married into the Imperial family.

Princess Taiping, on the other hand, would not have the same problem since she was already a member of the Imperial family by blood; however, as soon as she got married, she would belong to her husband’s family lineage. It really seemed like daughter-in-laws were yours to keep, while real daughters were yours to give away. This was the main reason why many ancient people were not too happy with having daughters.

Hmm, I guess Princess Taiping’s capabilities were shown mostly through her desire for power rather than having made good contributions for the benefit of the country. I am sure that Princess Taiping’s breaking the law to enhance her own avarice would not win any true support from the officials for possibly being made Crown Princess unless she was willing to bribe them with something valuable. Corruption is infamous for being one of the main causes for the downfall of a strong dynasty.

I surmise part of Wu Zetian’s goal for being the first female Emperor was to satisfy her own ambitions that the female gender was not so much inferior to the male gender, while the other part being trying to save the country from going into chaos with the weak reigns of both her sons.

Of course, ancient historians were extremely biased of Wu Zetian, but they cannot deny that she ruled well, so that was why historians had to bring her personal life into the picture. I personally think that a leader’s personal life should not be used to analyze his/her political career unless you can somehow tie it to politics. It was true that Princess Taiping’s intention(s) of succeeding her mother was more likely just to gratify herself as she did not really show any signs of concerns for the welfare of commoners.

Well, the men never needed to justify and prove their capabilities since ancient China was a male dominated society. In fact, if a women had a desire for power, she would have to indeed surpass the talents of many men. It was just the way society was back then.

Hmm, if one of her nephews or their son(s) possessed the capabilities or talents of a competent Emperor, then Wu Zetian may have just passed the throne to a Wu person. History will be written quite differently if that had happened. Despite being everything that she was, Wu Zetian was still a lady. Hence, the responsibility of making Wu family prestigious still laid on the shoulders of the men.

Xie Xie,

Zunjing de Snowybeagle Xian Sheng,

While we are at it, I might as well ask a few more questions regarding Wu Zetian.

From reading many different accounts in history, it came to my attention that you cannot really trust anyone in the political world. With the precarious nature of politics, you would most likely get the most support from your blood brothers and sisters. Also, there should still be a special bond between a mother and her child even in the palace life, where you were quite vulnerable to attacks.

With the above setting in mind, I would like to ask the reason as to why Wu Zetian had such poor relationships with her two eldest sons. Was it purely because of the struggles for power? Or was it because even her sons were opposed to her being in power as women should never rule a state according to Confucianism? Based on the books I have read, the first two Princes were both advocates of Confucianism. Even though Wu Zetian did not really get along with her two sons, I still cannot believe that a woman would have the heart to kill her own children! Was it even that necessary?

On the other hand, Wu Zetian seemed to have a much better relationship with Princess Taiping, her favorite daughter. In a society, where sons were normally treated better than daughters, I cannot see why she would give more favor to her daughter. Was it because Princess Taiping was a female; hence, she would not be challenging Wu Zetian’s authority to rule?

Well, I am just asking these questions out of curiosity since it is not quite often that I get to see a woman actually killing her children.

Xie Xie,

Zunjing de China History Forum members,

Hmm, I believe I have a small, but sort of important question. Who was Wu Zetian’s firstborn child? Was her firstborn the princess (who died in infancy) or Crown Prince Li Hung? I have read four sources regarding this issue and they did not agree with each other. Two sources claimed her firstborn was the infant princess, while the other two stated Crown Prince Li Hung was the first child. Which version is more accurate? I would just like to know, so that I can filter out all the unreliable sources. If the sources cannot even get the correct information for something simple like who was the firstborn child of a famous historical figure, then those sources have virtually no credibility!

Xie Xie,

Rong Qin Wang, sorry I didn't answer your earlier questions, must have missed it back somehow back then.

I've no idea whether Wu Zetian really killed any of her children.

As for her children, I believe their order of birth were as follows

01. AD 652 - Lĭ Hóng (李弘), died AD 675.
02. AD 653 - Princess ĀnDìng (安定公主), died in infancy. Sometimes noted as AD 654-654 instead.
03. AD 654 - Lĭ Xián (李贤), died AD 684.
04. AD 656 - Lĭ Xiăn (李显), known as Emperor Zhongzong (唐中宗).
05. AD 662 - Lĭ Dàn (李旦), known as Emperor Ruizong (唐睿宗).
06. AD 665 - Princess TàiPíng (太平公主), one account named her Lĭ LìngYuè (李令月).

From what I have read, the two sons were deathly afraid of their mother. It was understandable when the rumors had it that she was responsible for the death of their two elder brothers. Both of her two elder sons had much stronger personalities and openly criticized her close association with her rumored lovers and her involvement in politics. The speculations placed the reasons for her elder sons' exile and death at the foot of their oppositions of her behaviors. Therefore, the two younger sons tried to behave as weak as possible so that they would not get exiled or killed. At one time, Wu was sending a messenger to ZhongZong's exiled place, and he thought Wu was sending the order to kill him. The whole family was holding each other and crying until the messenger told him Wu did not send any order of execution.



Wu Zetian was very close to her daughter princess Taiping. Princess Taiping supposed to prescreen Wu's lovers for her. I am not sure why you get the impression that princess Taiping was much closer to her brothers and her father's lineage. I have not read in any places that princess Taiping spoke up for the rest of the royal families when Wu Zhetian was killing them with various excuses. On the contrary, she was very close to her Wu cousins and had a few of them as her lovers.

As for children taking after their mother’s surname, that idea was not radical at all. Since ancient time (Qin and pre-Qin era), there were cases where men married into a women's family and the children took up mothers' last name. It was not impossible. Princess Taiping could follow that route. She didn't need to change her name to Wu, and her children could take on her last name. Taiping and her husband could sacrifice to Wu Zetian according to the same tradition (it was a little grey since she had brothers, but, hey, it wasn't that far fetched.) She could definitely make it into the law. If she was a capable enough person, she could have manipulated the court officials into letting her do it. Her mother did many of those manipulations.

However, I think Taiping was not really a capable person and Wu Zetian knew it. Taiping was not a good person by all accounts, and I am not taking into account of her sex life at all. She was both in favor of her parents and in power for many years, and there was no record at all of any positive contribution from her -- no words nor deeds. In addition, Zhongzong was weak, but he was harmless to the people. Princess Taiping was very bad to the people. When she built her palace, she took properties from the surrounding commoners by force. When she went on streets, she caused chaos and damages to people and properties. Basically, Wu Zetian knew Taiping would be a lousy ruler. I think that would be the most important reason why she did not name Taiping as her heir. In addition, princess Taiping probably did not have the necessary skills in the tricky political arena of trying to be an empress, and Wu Zetian knew it. If Wu made Taiping to be the Crown Princess, Taiping would eventually get killed. From what I read, Taiping was Wu Zetian's favorite child. I remembered Wu Zetian had commented, "Taiping took after me the most." Therefore, I believe it was to protect Taiping that Wu Zetian did not name her as an heir.

There were no direct evidence of Wu Zetian killed her sons or daughter. From what I read, there were other possibilities. For the baby daughter, I guessed infant's sudden death syndrome. For her first son, I think the idea of his falling ill and die was a definitely possibility. Many people speculated he was poisoned by Wu Zetian because they did not like her. The second son was forced to kill himself by his jailor. Many people, again, thought it was on Wu's order, but I thought it was possibly the jailor's own action. The jailor might have gotten the wrong idea from the rumors regarding Wu's first son and thought to please Wu. He was punished afterwards.

Regarding the weapons from the 2nd son, well, they only found a few hundred armors, and he was the crown prince after all. Shouldn't he have guards and guards had armors? It sounded bad, but I really thought the armors were planted, and the accusation was ridiculous. The problem was that Li Xian2 (the second son) had probably killed Wu Zetian's favorite daoist priest and rumored lover 明崇儼 Ming ChungYan, and Wu was angry at him. I thought Wu maybe feeling he was a bit of a problem, so she exiled him to cool it. I do not think she wanted him dead.

Wu Zetian did kill her daughters-in-law, her grandson, granddaughter, and grandson-in-law for criticizing her in private, and it was recorded in history because they were actual executions not secret poisons and such. I always feel sorry for her grandchildren who died because they were very young (only teenagers) and they died horribly (beaten to death).

Zunjing de Fireball,

Thank you so much for your responses; it is a great pleasure to meet you! You have not only given me some new information, but also open my eyes to some different viewpoints! With this, I shall ask some more questions and add more comments.

Of course, Tang Zhongzong and Tang Ruizong were deadly afraid of their mother. Even if there were no rumors that she was involved in the deaths of their two elder brothers, her ferocious nature and lack of femininity would have least likely brought mother and sons closer together. Yes, Wu Zetian’s two older sons were pretty competent princes; hence, it was too bad neither of them made it to the throne since they would have made fine Emperors. However, I don’t think Zhongzong and Ruizong behaved as weak as possible to escape their mother’s suspicions since I believe they were plain weak by nature. Genetically speaking, I don’t see how a strong woman like Wu Zetian can produce those two very weak sons. Perhaps I did not think of the factor of taking after their father, the very incompetent Tang Gaozong?

Honestly, I have not read too many sources regarding Princess Taiping. In fact, I have failed to find a real biography on her in Vietnamese or English. Hence, all I know about Taiping would be some mentions of her from articles on her parents and brothers. Therefore, I would really appreciate any information you can give about this princess.

I initially thought Wu Zetian and Princess Taiping were very close to each other; however, some modern sources I have read stated otherwise since the relationship between them was only a little less intense than of Wu Zetian and her sons’ because of the power struggles between the Li and Wu families, of which the mother and daughter each represented.

Well, of course, Taiping did not speak up for the Li family when her mother was trying to kill them since she, like her brothers, were afraid to do anything against their mother’s wishes even though she was probably the favorite. However, some sources did indicate that Taiping did loosely collaborate with Di Renjie by repeatedly questioning her mother about how nephews would not have ritual offerings for their aunt. Thus, she indirectly lobbied the way for her 3rd brother to be reinstated as the Crown Prince.

Oh no, I have never read any accounts about Taiping being very close to her Wu cousins and having a few of them as her lovers. In fact, I have only read about Taiping and Wu Sansi being heavily engaged in fierce political battles for influences over the court. The court probably could not survive a day without them aggressively attacking each other with words.

Hmm, I have always thought the idea of children taking after their mother’s surname was considered as taboo in ancient China since it was a male dominated society. Zhongzong and Ruizong did take after their mother’s surname for a while, but there was certainly no “natural feeling” to it.

Regardless, Wu Zetian passed the throne back to her 3rd son, knowing that he would definitely revert to the Tang Dynasty after succeeding her. She also did not seem to have contemplated greatly over how to preserve her dynasty. So, I surmise her bloodline was still more important than her kingdom.

I always knew Taiping did not have very many good qualities; however, I had no idea she did many negative things to the commoners. Based on what you are saying, I completely agree that she would make a terrible Emperor.

I find it ironic that Wu Zetian would say “Taiping took after me the most” since Taiping had many negative qualities, would not it be the same as Wu Zetian admitting she also had some major flaws?

This brings me to another question. If Taiping was not of a decent character, then why was she beloved by her parents and favored by her brothers? Was it mostly because she was the youngest of her siblings? This part does not make sense to me.

By the way, I am, by no means, claiming that all the materials I have read were accurate since all the sources I have read were translated from Chinese. That is why I am just here to learn.

Zunjing de Fireball,

You are absolutely right; there were no substantial evidences stating that Wu Zetian actually killed her children. However, since she was a ruthless lady, who was responsible for many political purges, she definitely does not get the benefit of the doubt. Until new evidences are found, you have already stated all the possibilities for the deaths of Wu Zetian’s children.

I initially did not evaluate Wu Zetian so negatively as she was a decent ruler. However, as I go much deeper in the studies of Confucius, I found Wu Zetian to be absolutely intolerable as she completely exceeded her boundaries. She was such a hypocrite for not practicing what she was preaching most of the time! With this in mind, I not only feel sorry for her grandchildren, but all her “relatives” in general. What a horrible mother and terrible wife!

Oh, while talking about Wu Zetian’s daughter-in-law, I have another question. Why did not Wu Zetian get rid of Empress Wei, Zhongzong’s wife, when it was apparent that she had the desire to follow the footsteps of her mother-in-law? Of course, Wu Zetian did not think very highly of Zhongzong, but she did pass the throne back to him, so I would think that she would have at least wanted him to be safe? Also, I don’t think Empress Wei was smart enough to conceal her ambitions in front of Wu Zetian. Besides, Wu Zetian was capable enough to not be so oblivious to Empress Wei’s real intentions.

Anyway, I would really appreciate any answers, questions, or comments.

Xie Xie,

Zunjing de Rong Qin Wang,

Nice to meet you too. You have such good manners, and I feel I am like a totally rude barbarian if I don't do "Zunjing de" also. Thank you for reminding me my manners. Here are some information for you.




I am not sure whether the two elder princes would have made good emperors because they also had their faults. One was sickly and probably a homosexual - not that gays are bad, but it may cause a problem for succession later. The sickly son was also a good scholars, but may be too good a scholar to be a good politician. The other son was too unflexible. Again, he may be a bad politician also. The way he killed his mother's lover without thinking told us of his carelessness. The two younger sons might be as weak as their father because they did show it after Wu's death. The children may inherit a mother's or a father's genes, so it was not impossible.

Furthermore, Wu was ruling the country with her husband (and doing the most actual ruling), so I don't think she pay too much attention to her children. Her children grew up fairly spoiled in general. The eldest two were favored by their father, and Tang Gaozong paid a lot of attention to them, so they turned out OK. The younger ones including Taiping grew up when Tang Gaozong's high blood pressure got worse (his symptoms were the one who had high blood pressure). Therefore, they did not turn out as good, especially Taiping.

Due to the fact that Princess Taiping was a daugher and would not have any political responsibilities, I doubt she had any proper "princely" education, or anyone even cared that she did. For a Chinese prince, if he did something wrong, others would definitely come out and tell him don't do it. For a favored Chinese princess in Tang dynasty, I don't think too many people would dare or remember to jump out to tell her that she was doing something wrong. Primarily, the women were more independent and allowed more freedom in Tang's royal family due to their Turkish blood. One of Tang Gaozong's aunts was actually a female general and had a group of female soldiers who participated in the battles that established Tang dynasty, and one of the Chinese military gate/fortress was named after her to this day. Therefore, the Tang princess' actions were not as restricted as princess in other dynasties. Consequently, Princess Taiping was out of control --Though, she was a little better than Tang Zhongzong's daughter, Princess Anle, who actually poisoned her father with her mother. I think the fact that Wu Zetian was more capable than Empress Wei, so Princess Taiping was more sensible than Princess Anle. I believe both genetic and the examples of their mothers were at work here.




For a daughter of a strong woman, there will always be tension and power struggles. From what I read, both of them were strong willed and determined to get what they want. We all knew from previous postings of this and the other threads that Wu Zetian was this way. And Princess Taiping showed her true nature when she was a teenager (I think she was between 14-16, about the time for marriage). She went to the formal court of her parents and requested in public that she wanted to have a husband. Not too many Chinese Princess had done that. Over all, Princess Taiping was like her mother in her determinations. As she grew older, what she wanted would sometimes conflict with what her mother wanted. Wu Zetian starved her first husband to death in jail because his brother was involved with rebels. They were married for 7 years, and she was pregananted with his 4th child. This was the first time she learned of her mother's ruthlessness close up and personal. To comfort Princess Taiping, Wu Zetian increased her Princess' 封户 (household that belonged to a noble) to 1200 when the usual rules for a Tang Princess was 350. I think Princess Taiping became more aware of her mother's power afterwards. I believe that this was the reason why she picked handsome young men for her mother's harem in order to please her mother.

Wu Zetian ruled for a long time (approaching 50 years), and all her children and newphews were trying to get the most power for themselves and not get killed. The political intrigues and alliances were very complexed. I am not sure about the facts that Princess Taiping had worked with Di Renjie for her brothers. It was a possibility, because she did worked with her nephew (later Tang Xuanzong) in helping her brother Tang Zhongzong and Tang Ruizong to gain back the throne. You have to remember, there were no permanent friends or enemies in politics. In the later years of Wu Zetian, Princess Taiping as well as everyone else tried to walk a tight rope between Wu and Li families. Princess Wu's 2nd husband, a Wu cousin, was fairly reserved and not very political. Since she had a lot of lovers in her 2nd marriage, I don't think she loved her 2nd husband very much. Therefore, I think she probably felt that brothers were closer than husband or cousins. Therefore, she went with the Li family in the end.

p.s. Wu Sansi was a j*** anyway. I remember he was not a likable character. It might be my Chinese novel speaking here, but I don't quite like him. He was one of the Wu cousins who tried to become the crown prince. He and Princess Taiping had a lot of history together. I remember something about they were lovers at one time. I think politics drew them apart. The fact that Wu Sansi later became Empress Wei's lover probably did not help their relationship.



I agree with your accessment there.




Princess Taiping was supposed to be looking like Wu Zetian, and her personality was very close to Wu also -- like I have mentioned before. I think that was why Wu recognized all her own flaws showed up in Princess Taiping more dramatically and fatally -- Princess Taiping was spoiled rotten and did not have the kind of ruthless training like Wu. Therefore, Wu decided not to make Taiping a crown princess.

She was favored because she looked like her mother, and her father did love her mother deeply (Otherwise, he wouldn't be making her into a join-ruler.) She was also the youngest child and the only daughter of Wu-- Remember the baby girl Wu Zetian had lost! Taiping was the replacement.




I am also not sure all I read was accurate. That was the basis of History. Nobody knew what really happened, and we could only make the best educational guesses.

Please forgive my English. I know I sometimes made awkward statements, and my plurals and tenses are generally terrible. I do try though.


Thank you!

Zunjing de Rong Qin Wang,

I feel everyone deserves a benefit of doubt. She was ruthless because she had a bad life from the start. She was a daughter of the concubine, and her father was dead when she was young. Her elder brothers and their mother treated her and her mother very bad. i think she learned very young that she needed to be ruthless in order to gain what she wanted. She came into the harem at the age of 14 -- in Chinese years, she was actually 13 years old. She had to face court intrigues after that. Many times, she could be killed also. I will say she had a very interesting life and was a very complex person.




Well, she certainly exceeded the boundaries of Confucius rules. Her actions did not match what she practice, i.e. Buddhism. She was a pretty bad mother for sure, but she was not so bad a wife. Tang Gaozong was lazy and had symptoms of high blood pressure. He had severe headaches and couldn't see sometimes. He left the ruling of the Empire for Wu Zetian to do. It wasn't Wu's fault or necessarily ambition to do it. Also, her left over sons were weak and incapable of ruling an empire, so she felt she must take over. It was just the ways she did it. I think she knew she went over board with the evil judges. Therefore, she got rid of them quickly after she stablized her power base. She also did not allow her lovers to interfere with the court. Sometimes, I wonder whether she regretting killing her grandchildren and her daughters-in-law? I think her eventual returning the throne back to Li family was her appologies to her children and her husband. I am a romantic. Ha ha!





Actually, Tang Zhongzong lost his throne precisely because Wu tried to curb Empress Wei's ambition. In the first few months of Zhongzong's reign the first time, he raised the postitions of Empress Wei's family members to ridiculously high level regardless of their abilities. Her family members were also very corrupt and wasted no time to start getting money andn such. In addition, Zhongzong was not paying attention to the normal business of the court, just heaping honors on Empress Wei and her family members. Therefore, Wu Zetian came back to court and took the throne away from Zhongzong. Aftwards, Empress Wei was very careful, and Wu Zetian did not have cause to kill her. Empress Wei became more corrupt after Wu had lost her power and was very sick and dying, so Wu never had a chance to kill Empress Wei at the end.

Zunjing de Fireball,

No, please don’t ever think that you are a rude barbarian since it is just me going overboard with being too polite. Hehehe!

Hmm, a homosexual can prove to be detrimental to the empire due to succession crises. Han Aidi served as a perfect example of how bad the situations could be. However, where did you get the idea that Li Hong was probably homosexual? I have never read anything of this nature. Perhaps you or others think he might be homosexual because he still had no children when he died at the age of 23?

That is right, Li Hong was a devoted Confucius scholar, who would get depress over minor things that went wrong. He definitely seems too kind to be an effective politician. In fact, Wu Zetian commented a couple of the times that Li Hong possessed the “virtues of women,” which was strictly contrast to his mother, who was as strong-will as men.

Regarding Li Xian, I often times felt that he was stupid and stubborn. I agree that he should be very wary towards his mother, however, openly criticizing her would only further deteriorate their relationship. Even though he was praised for having good decisions in court affairs, I felt that he showed poor judgments when dealing with affairs involving his mother.

That is right; Wu Zetian was such an assertive woman that I can only find very little feminine qualities of hers. She would rather rule the country instead of raising her own children. Not a lot of woman were willing to do that. On the contrary, Gaozong would rather spend time with his children than paying attention to state affairs. What a role reverse. Hehehe!

The younger sons were also generally much weaker than their two elder brothers by nature.

Of course, there was no good reason for Taiping to receive a princely education since she was a daughter. However, should not people still care about what she did if she was breaking the laws? It is true that most princesses were ignored in history as they did not have much political influences; nevertheless, would not a princess receive the same punishment as a prince if she broke the laws? If I am understanding this correctly, then you are saying a favored Tang princess would get away with a lot of things that princes would not normally be able to?

Yes, Tang Dynasty was perhaps the most open of all imperial dynasties due to the Tang’s royalties’ partial Turkish blood. Because women were treated pretty well in the Tang Dynasty, it is not surprising to see the Tang being the only dynasty to have a female Emperor.

That is right; Gaozong’s aunt, Princess Ping Yang, was actually a general, who made numerous contributions to the founding of Tang Dynasty. Even though many legends about her feats were fictional, who was actually a real historical figure. Like other princesses, she was also very beloved by her father.

Well, even though Tang princesses generally had more freedom than other princesses, they still should not be left out of control. In this case, it was usually the Emperors’ fault for not teaching their daughters proper manners.

You are right; there are only two ways children with a strong mother can turn out. Some would grow up to be pretty weak because they are so used to comply to their mother’s wishes. On the other hand, they might grow up to be as strong as their mother to meet her expectations.

That is right; the incident of requesting a husband in public certainly indicated Taiping did not behave very traditionally. Of course, not a lot of princesses would have the courage or even the thought of doing something remotely similar.

Regarding starving Taiping’s first husband to death, I am not sure if Wu Zetian felt like she was doing something wrong since she probably felt her responsibilities to the state were greater than that of a mother. At least, she comforted her daughter afterward. She did not do the same thing with her sons when she executed their wives. In fact, her sons were pretty lucky to have escaped her purges.

Of course, there are no permanent friends or enemies in the political world. However, I would at least think people would show some compassion and not put their friends-turn-enemies to death because they were once their friends, especially since some of them are their relatives as well.

Princess Taiping had very good reasons to side with the Li family since she technically belonged to her father’s lineage. Even if she were to inherit the throne from her mother, she would still identify herself as a Li as well as needing the support from the Li family to back her up.

I surmise a person’s character is not that important when it comes to family love. One would not automatically hate his/her relatives just because they don’t have a lot of good qualities.

I guess having a similar personality would naturally bring a mother and daughter closer together whether those qualities being good or bad. Also, a mother would probably love her daughter even more for inheriting her bad traits because of guilt.

Yeah, unlike most Emperors, Gaozong actually wanted to have a daughter, who would greatly resemble his beloved wife, Wu Zetian. I think this was a very rare situation when it was not so bad to be a princess. Also, after giving birth to four sons, I think Wu Zetian’s position was secured enough for her to have a daughter.

By the way, I just read an online article claiming that Princess Taiping collaborated closely with Zhang Gian Zhi to overthrow her mother in order to restore the Tang Dynasty. This eventually led to the coup dethroning Wu Zetian when she was very ill.

Have you read about this account in actual history?

Please don’t worry about your English; since we are discussing Chinese history here, the content of your posts is so much more important than the syntaxes and dictions themselves! Also, please feel free to be as creative as possible!

Xie Xie,

Zunjing de Fireball,

Well, even though I don’t think Wu Zetian deserves the benefit of the doubt, I won’t condemn her with any crimes unless I have substantial evidences. Of course, Wu Zetian had an interesting life and was a complex person; otherwise, we would not be having this discussion right now.

In actuality, Wu Zetian was probably just living in the wrong place. Had she lived in nomadic tribes, she would not be “forced” to comply the Confucian law of not interfering in state affairs. Instead, she would probably be recognized for her talents and praised for her accomplishments.

Regarding Buddhism, I cannot see how this religion would fit in with the precarious nature of politics. Actually, political leaders were more or less non-religious. I think the state religions were for the commoners/officers rather than for the leaders themselves to practice.

I do agree that Wu Zetian was probably not as power-hungry as Confucian scholars have indicated in numerous accounts. Like you said, she had a sickly husband and weak/incompetent sons, all of whom could not govern effectively.

A few articles I have read, written by modern historians, stated that Wu Zetian felt that ministers would take advantage of a weak Emperor to seize power, and possibly harming the Emperor as well. Hence, she had to take over power to ensure peace for the commoners and protection for her incompetent sons.

However, this seems too idealistic for me to believe since was not Wu Zetian also harming her sons?

Deep down, Wu Zetian would love to install righteous ministers like Di Renjie; however, this was very least likely to have happened since no Confucian scholars would serve under a woman! Therefore, she had to use greedy ministers, who could easily be bribed with money or power, to assist her to the throne. Nevertheless, because these ministers were so corrupted she had to get rid of them very quickly afterward, or else she would be overthrown herself.

Of the four royal princes, Zhongzong was the most incompetent! He was more of an idiot in the sense of being pretty oblivious to virtually everything around him. That was why he ended up dying at the hands of the two women he loved the most, Empress Wei and Princess Anle.

In comparison, even though Ruizong was weaker, he was much wiser. Other than being unfit to rule, he did not have any other negative qualities, and a lot of his decisions were praised by both the officials and the commoners. Each of the time he gave up power was for a good cause and to the right person. He abdicated in favor of his more competent mother in 690. He renounced his position as the Crown Prince in favor of his more legitimate brother in 698. Finally, he abdicated for the second time in favor of his more brilliant son in 712.

Yes, I know during his first reign, Zhongzong was known to have promoted members of the Wei family to high court positions regardless of their talents. In fact, he was famous for telling his prime minister that nobody can stop him even if he wished to give his father-in-law half the empire because he was the Emperor. This was the quote Wu Zetian used to depose Zhongzong.

Do you think this was a legitimate excuse?

When Wu Zetian reinstated Zhongzong as the Crown Prince in 698, she should have known that when he inherit the throne again, he would still be under the influence of his wife; therefore, she should have thought of a way to get rid of this dangerous daughter-in-law and find another virtuous wife for her son.

You have stated that Wu Zetian did not have a good reason to kill Empress Wei, but was not Wu Zetian pretty good at getting people implicated in crimes they might have not necessarily committed? I don’t think it was that hard to find a decent excuse.

Zunjing de Rong Qin Wang,

Li Hong seemed to have a male servant who was very close to him. This guy was so close to him that Wu Zetian noticed it. I think Wu Zetian eventually killed the servant. I read this in several sources and it was also in one of my favorite TV series about Wu Zetian made in China, Da4 Ming2 Gong Zi2. Therefore, I mentioned that he might be a gay -- there were rumors of that anyway.



I think Tang Gao Zong and Tang Zhong Zong were two very kind hearted fathers, and they truly loved their daughters. They also spoiled them rotten! When the first few people came to complain about these two princesses' bad behaviors, their parents never punished them. Afterwards, the princesses probably punished/killed the big mouths. Soon, the others would know not to cross the two princesses. It was all due to their parents' attitudes. Both sets of parents pretty much turned the blind eyes on those two princesses.

I think Wu Zetian knew she needed to kill her son-in-law for the political reason. However, I think first beaten him up with the whips and then letting him starve to death in the jail was a little bit too cruel an action for a mother-in-law towards the father of her grandchildren and with one grandchild to come -- and during the time of her daughter's pregnancy, no less!!! I think she knew she really went overboard on that account. About her sons' wives, they never found out what happened to them. Even after her sons and grandson became the Emperors, they couldn't find any information about what happened. Eventually, this incident was buried under yet another embarrassing event caused by Wu Zetian, their mother and grandmother.

About Empress Wei, I think Wu Zetian had killed enough of her children's spouses by that time. In addition, Empress Wei was Zhong Zong's primary wife, and she had certain rights, etc. So... Wu Zetian did not kill her nor tried to make up a false accusation to kill her. I think Empress Wei showed Wu Zetian that Wei was a pretty stupid woman and would present no real political threat to Wu herself. Regarding the threat Wei would present to Wu's son Zhong Zong, I think Wu was quite given up on Zhong Zong's personality and decided that he could lie in the bed he had made for himself. Besides, there were her 4th son and a very capable grandson from this 4th son. I think Wu knew that Empress Wei would never get hold of the throne for long, and the throne would belong to a capable descendent of Wu's eventually. Wu was getting very old (in her 70's), and she did not want to spend too much more energy on her stupid and weak son and that stupid woman he married (IMO).




In the time of Wu's reign (especially when she was the Emperor), the court battles were severe and with very extremely severe consequences. Whole families got killed. Friends or causual associates were killed by simple association alone. By the time of the later part of Wu's reign, the succession battles were even worse. We are talking about many people had blood debts with many other people. If one group won, the other group and all their family members would be killed. Friendship and blood relationship and marriage relationship would be totally overlooked in this sorts of situations. Think of Cultural Revolution in modern day China. Think of the most bloody time during the French Revolution or Russia's Stalin's era. You would get the picture.



It's possible. I think I heard something like that. Taiping turned her back on her mother when she thought her mother's power was slipping. Her mother was dying anyway, so she needed to look for her own good.

I agree with alll your other points. I think you got very good analyzing skills for a historian.