Does anyone have details/maps of the Wala's (瓦剌) invasion of Ming Dynasty in 1449?

Specifically, how did they break through the defences/passes of the Great Wall and threaten the capital?

[Yun's note: The Walas are better known in English as the Oirat Mongols.]

Well, by the time of Emperor Yingzong of Ming the garrison was in utmost corruption and nearly beyond any hope of revival. Trust a few generations of Confucian outlooks to destroy national defense.

Here is an article in Chinese with a map of the Oirat attack on Beijing:

http://military.china.com/zh_cn/history2/0...4/12338875.html

The Oirat main body crossed the Great Wall at Datong, defeating the defending garrison of the city in battle and killing its generals. Ming Yingzong's expedition against the Oirats was meant to relieve Datong, but the vanguard suffered a crushing defeat and the retreating army of 500,000 was annihilated by the Oirats, with Yingzong taken prisoner.

Two months later, the Oirats made their move against Beijing. Esen, the Oirat leader, led 100,000 cavalry eastwards from Datong to Baiyangkou, and then south to capture Zijing Pass on the inner line of the Great Wall. From there, the Oirat advance northeast to strike at Beijing.

At the same time, 20,000 Oirats attacked Gubeikou and 50,000 Oirats attacked Juyong Pass in the east, to divert Ming troops from Beijing. However, these points were successfully defended by their Ming garrisons.

Thanks for the link provided.

I tried to search unitedcn.com yesterday but the site wasn't available.

Found a couple more maps:
Part 1 : Oirats won at Tumu


Part 2 : Ming repelled Oirats from the Capital

For those who might not be well-informed about the "incidence of Tumu" (土木之变), I should slightly explain.

Basically, after Emperor Yongle, the eunuch started to gain power. By Emperor Ming Yingzong (明英宗)'s time, the eunuch Wang Zhen (王振) became the most powerful eunuch and controlled the military and political power, taking advantage of the fact that Ming Yingzong was only 9 years.

In 1449, Wala (Oirat Mongols) invaded Ming. Under no preparation, Wang Zhen forced Ying Zong to dispatch 500,000 troops to defend Da Tong (大同). But scout reported that Da Tong was captured by Qirat Mongols and Ming troops retreated to Tu Mu Bao 土木堡 (today's Hebei province, western Huai Lei).

The Oirat troops attacked Tu Mu Bao and Ming was forced to fight and encountered much losses in casualities. Some 50 officials were killed and Ying Zong was taken hostage and Wang Zhen was also killed. This historical event is known as "incidence of Tumu" (土木之变)

After this news of Yingzong being taken hostage spreaded to the Ming court, the court was shocked. The empress announced that the emperor throne should be passed to Zhu Qiyu (朱祈钰), Ying Zong's brother. At the same time, they also discussed on how to deal with Qirat's attack.

Yu Qian (于谦), the military commander, proposed repelling Qirat at all effrot and punish all the factions of Wang Zhen (and his eunuch forces). Shortly after, Zhu Qiyu was enthroned as Emperor Daizong and Yingzong became Taishanghuang. The Qirat had attempted threaten the Ming court by taking hostage of Yingzong, after realising that this ploy didn't work, they then released Yingzong.

Actually, they were already powerful under Yongle - otherwise, why would the treasure-ship fleets all be commanded by eunuchs? What changed is that instead of them being dependent on the emperor, the emperors became dependent on them.

was the ming great wall made before or after this disaster?

The construction/repair of the ming great wall had already begun before this disaster, if I'm not wrong. I read that it has already begun since Yongle period. In fact, during Yongle period, there are some more military campaigns against the Wala.

how did they break through the big wall

I think the mongol use the captured Emperor to make the Ming general to open the gate. The Ming general has no choice because they will be executed anyway if they disobey the Emperor.

Are you referring to the Zijing Pass? Can someone provide more details of this incident if it did take place?

That was not how it happened.
As Yun mentioned in post #2, the Oirats had already breached the pass at the Great Wall before the battle of Tumu they captured the emperor.

See the maps I posted in post #4.

AD 1449
7th month
11th day : The Oirat leader Esen defeated the Ming forces at Mao'Er Zhuang (猫儿庄).
15th day : The poorly led and supported Ming garrison at Datong (大同) was routed at YangHe (阳和). The Great Wall was effectively breached.

I suspect at that time, the Great Wall along that particular area was not the most strongly fortified type which enable defenders to resist attackers easily. In any case, that region was traditionally considered as beyond the Passes (塞外). The actual defensive walls were those indicated by the inner lines in the map, with Passes like JuYong Pass (居庸关).

Maps showing unbroken lines of walls along the Great Wall could be quite misleading.

Much of the walls were not intended to keep out invaders like the Maginot Line (people could climb over the wall and it was impossible to guard every section), but to make it more difficult for horse-mounted raiders to cross and return with their loots.

At Datong, the defence relied on the fortress of JùMénBŭ (拒门堡), which was actually one of the four garrisons beyond the Passes (塞外四堡) designed as advanced bulwarks protecting the Great Wall.

I don't think it did.

The ZiJing Pass (紫荆关) was breached when a Ming traitor, the captured eunuch Xi Ning (喜宁) who was familiar with the military deployment at the Pass, showed the Oirats a mountain route which enabled the Pass to be attacked from the front and the rear. Esen arrived on 9th day of the 10th month to take personal command. The defending generals Han Qing (韩青) and Sun Xiang (孙祥) were killed in action.

More on Zijing Pass:
http://www.meet-greatwall.org/english/gwcn/egwcn10.htm

I would agree that the Great Wall of that time was not as well fortified and defended as the Ming wall we see today. It was mostly a rammed-earth wall without parapets or towers:


From http://www.meet-greatwall.org/english/gwcn/egwcn6.htm

The wall was only improved to its present level after Tan Lun and Qi Jiguang were assigned to reinforce it in 1568.

Uhm, could my post #13 and Yun's post #14 be switched around or something?

I saw Yun's question in post #11 only after sending in post #12, this type of thing do happen in forums like this ...

[From Yun: No probs, I've edited my Post #14]

These eunuchs really were bad news, eh?

Did the eunuchs also causes the downfall of Tang Empire ? off-topic question

Yup .
According to 明史, Xĭ Níng even suggested to Essen to extort gazillions of gold taels in ransom for the captured emperor, and to demand the loyal officials such as Yü Qian (于谦) to go in person to negotiate, and then capture them, with the anticipation that the Ming Court would not put up further resistance without the faction advocating to fight on.

But to be fair, not all eunuchs were bad. The eunuch Ruăn YáoMín (阮尧民) also perished with the fall of the ZiJing Pass, according to http://www.thegreatwall.com.cn/aboutgreatw...uan/page02.html
... though I don't think the eunuchs should have been there in the first place.
They were appointed as supervisors to ensure the commanders did not rebel, being forerunners of political commissars.
But the appointment of such people without appropriate competency only undermined the morale and effectiveness of the military.

A combination of eunuchs, bad emperors, rebellions, regional warlords, and a usurper.

Suggest you start a new thread in Tang Dynasty folder.
The decline of Tang started after An Lushan's rebellion, and one of the figures blamed was the emperor XuanZong's favourite and trusted eunuch, Gao LiShi.

During the reigns of subsequent emperors, the eunuchs did become increasingly powerful and controlled the emperors, and they together with the regional military governors, caused the downfall of the empire.

I always think the defeat of Ming army in 1449 give a signal to the mongol that the Ming Empire is not that invinsible leading to more mongol incursion afterwards. I started to admire Yongle Five expedition against the mongol. Does anyone has information on Yongle expedition?

Confucian at work again because after Yongle they went and down size the military

Which of the following are worse? A hardcore Confucian or an eunuch?

The Confucian tends to ignore military affairs at the expense of the civil, and has a reactionary attitude towards the developing commercial revolution.

The eunuch is deprived of family ties, and is probably wholly self-interested. He can't have kids, his own line ends at him, so what stops him from seeking and abusing power?

I don't think Confucian is the main cause of Ming military decline. The defeat of Ming army by wala were because of enunuch and the weak Emperor. No matter how strong your army is, it will still be defeated if poorly planned and deployed. Just look at Battle of chibi, cao cao lose almost his entire invasion forces to Liu bei and sun quan. Larger size doesn't mean stronger.

Confucian stop trade with the rest of the world, allowing the Ming fleet to rot in Nanjing. I do imagine that they will do the same thing to the army, allowing it to become weak and ineffective.

I think the confucian officials tries to convince the Ming Emperors that resources should be better spent on defence in the north and on people wellfare. The defeat of Ming army by wala in 1449 further prove their point. Since then, a lot resources have been spent in the northern defence instead of using it for Ming navy fleet expedition. I think they do a right thing since the Ming navy fleet is expensive and pretty useless. The Ming navy really don't bring any benefits but to show off to other countries how powerful Ming Empire was.

Corruption, eunuchs and weak Emperors are the main factors behind the Ming military decline.

Not really in fact the stopping of trade is the reason why there was a large black market during the Ming Dynasty. It got so bad that a later Ming emperor resume trade later on.

At any rate the stopping of the sea voyages started in 1433 , there is a time period of 13 yrs to boaster the northern defense. So how come the defenses were that poor?

Why is it that trade was bad, didn't the Han, Tang & Song dynasty made quite a lot of money trading.

Before 1449, Emperor Xuande maintain a good relation with the mongol and have a reasonable strong defence set up. It is only the loss of 500,000 army in tumu that the wala were able to penetrate the great wall.

I saw somewhere saying that Yongle recongnize the costly navy expedition and scaled down its sixth navy expedition and remitted large taxes back to the farmers. During Yongle reign, he has significantly exhausted the Empire resources. His son and grandson, Hongxi and xuande Emperor have to clear up his mess by reducing taxes and cut gov't spending. This could explain why there isn't a lot of extra fund going to north by stopping the navy expedition.

The Ming did ban the trade but the trade continue to boom around 15-16th century. So, its really make no differeneces whether there is a ban or not.

Sea Trade was Ban after Yongle died. His son Hongxi follow the advice of the conservatives and introduce the Ban. I would imagine during the sixth navy expedition, some of the money from trade was making its way back to the Ming dynasty. But the Ban on Trade made sure that money will never came back.



Basically there was a large Black market trade in the 15-16th century, since trade was ban. This may had help contribute to the corruption of the Ming dynasty.



Wasn't Emperor Xuande the one that depend on eunuchs too much.

If there was still trade then the Ming Dynasty would have the Cash needed to improve the defense of the Great Wall, but this didn't happen because trade was ban.

EDIT: OK, I watch the show on the great wall. I appears that the Ming use really a lot of money to maintain, improve and expand the Great Wall. They use so much tax money that the peasants revolted, signaling the end of the Ming Dynasty.

Quite a pity, if they had not ban sea trading, then maybe the Ming would have more money for the Walls and there would not be a revolt ?

It does not mean a rich nation is a strong nation. Southern Song's trade was the highest among the dynasty. It was recorded that the Southern Song tax collection exceeded that of Tang because of the increase of tax on trade. However the affluent resulted in the a high number of the population being fearful of war and do not want the Song to embark on northern campaign. In addition, the additional tax money do not always go the military spending.

The Ming dynasty would last longer, since unlike the Song the Ming was a military power.

After Battle of tumu 1449, Ming move towards defensive position just like the Song dynasty. I think situation could be really different if the 500,000 did not defeated in tumu. Afer the defeat, Ming empire put their entire attention on the northern threat. Yongle did a great job by eliminate the threat but Yingzong ruin it all.

The collaspe of the Ming was mainly because of weak and incapable Emperor. After Hongzhi, the Ming Emperor was really lazy and they was easy being manipulated by eunuchs. By the time Chongzhen come to the throne, it was too late to reverse the effect of Ming Decline. The collaspe of Ming really had nothing to do with trade because trade is already booming during Emperor jiajing reign.

Yes it does, the Ming had a peasant up rising due to the massive amount of Taxes to go for the Great Wall.

The Ban on sea trade was so long that the black market flourish and the discipline became lax. The merchant and eunuchs took advantage of the black market and bribe many Ming official. So by the time of Chongzhen, bribing Ming official was a fact of life. If sea trade was wasn't Ban then there would not be any black market.

Besides unlike the Song Dynasty the Ming had the military might to annex Mongolia just like the Han dynasty under Han Wudi. The building of that Great Wall fortress of the west reflex this, problem is there isn't enough money for the expenditure like Han Wudi time.

I think the Ming doesn't want to annex Mongolia. Hong Wu launch attack against the mongol in the north and destroy their capital city but did not occupy it. Yongle launch 5 expedition against the mongol but also did not occupy the territory. This clearly show that the Ming Empire has no interest in annexing mongolia but merely wanted eliminate their strenght. Mongolia is a wasteland which only create huge burden for the Empire.

Not a good strategy, seeing as that the mongols came again and again, that the Ming dynasty had to maintain the great wall.

Should have follow the Qing example and annex mongolia, this solve the nomads problem straight away.

so there wasn't anymore expedition after Yongle ?

I don't think there was any expedition against the mongol after Yongle died unless you consider the one launched by Yingzong in 1449. After the defeat in tumu, the Ming doesn't have the strenght to defeat the mongol and the chance of occupying it has been missed.

How did the manchus ocupy mongolia anyhow ? there are no cities and the nomads can ride off into the horizon

You forget that the Manchu cavalry were just as skilled as the Mongols.

So early ming cavalry was not as skilled to take over mongolia

I read somewhere saying that during Yongle 5th expedition, its army was unable to catch up with mongol calvary. In the end, yongle army run out of food and forces to retreat. I don't think the Ming is interested in taking over mongolia because it is a wasteland to them.

The actual fact was Yongle felt unwell halfway through the 5th expedition against the mongols and not because they have short supplies of food. Yongle ordered the entire army to return to Beijing but he died whilst the entourage was still in inner Mongolia. The ming government was only interested in installing a puppet administration which will not pose any threats to them and giving tributes to the Ming government annually. Of all the 5 expeditions that Yongle undertook against the Mongols, probably only 2 expeditions were useful in routing the Mongol army and the rest were simply wasting state/country's resources.

The Manchus did not occupy Mongolia as you have stated but under the unified Manchuria, Nurhachi fought wars with various Mongol tribes that supported the Ming government or were simply the enemies of the new unified Manchuria. Nurhachi was wary that if he wanted to defeat the Ming army in the future, he'd have to eliminate every single enemy of the new Manchurian state which includes the Mongols that still supported the Ming Dynasty. Simply put, he unified the Mongols to join his cause or become his enemies and risk open war with the unified Manchus. As you mentioned, the Manchus and Mongolians led nomadic lives but under Nurhachi, a unified Manchurian state emerged or simply put the new Manchurian state modeled after the Ming Dynasty, proper state government was set up, armies were divided into 8 different banners, population was divided under the banner system as well which was meant to work, farm and supply for each belonging banners and ultimately the state itself. In fact a lot of trading were still carried out between the new Manchurian state and the Ming Dynasty as Nurhachi knew very well that though he hope to defeat the Ming, he still needed their resources and technology know how very badly as well.

I though the army still chasing the mongol when yongle died.

Sadly but no, Yongle felt tired even during the beiginning of his last expedition against the Mogols, he also regretted that he didn't listen to the numerous advices put forward to him by his court officials, namely Xia Yan ji (夏原吉)the secretary of Finace whom was even imprisoned for trying to pursuade Yongle not to carry out another expensive and futile expedition. By the time Yongle realised his mistakes, he had fallen gravely ill and died just 5 days later whilst on his way back to Beijing in inner Mongolia.

Ming only wanted to get rid of the so-called "northern Yuan". Occupying Mongolia was impossible at that time, because there weren't russians cutting the way to the north. Actually Ming frequently got the support of other mongols against "northern Yuan". For example Esen khaan's grand father joined the Ming with his oirats to chase the poor pretender Arugtai far to the north almost into Siberia once.

By 1600s mongols got encircled, so the manchus could control them by putting armies at key trading posts. But then, those armies consisted of mongols mostly anyway.

The Ming want to eliminate the mongols threat not just Northern Yuan. The early Ming Emperors always had to send armies to defeat the stronger one which is not neccesary the northern Yuan. The mongols that support the Ming are unrealiable often break promise and did not really help much at all.