Do you know where I can get a map of Tang at its peak? Thanks.

It's interesting to note that there were 3 large empires at that time:

Tang
Islamic Empire
Byzantine

Tang seemed to be the most powerful at that time, but after the defeat by the Arabs at the battle of Talas in 750s, its strength has decreased.

So Tang Empire did meet Arabs in war. What is 'battle of Talas'?

The height of Tang, promximation here.
http://www.nhyz.org/student/sun/asia7cen2.jpg

Yrimondi have posted the Zhong Yuan Tu before which has a more detailed version, but somehow the maps aren't working, and I have no time to look into CnYahoo and find it.

And stop bring up Talas again, it was pinprick damage to Tang power.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  This map really bugs me.  Were Koreans the only tributary states to Tang?  I find this a little crazy. 

They also just clump Goguryeo, Baekje, and Shilla into one big mess of a blob and just slap the tributary label on it.  ::shakes head::

Every single one of these maps bugs me. Since every single one of them had a political message they want to slip under your eye lids.

From a propaganda point of view, I like the one about "Tang's political influence" best.

It has increased my wariness of maps with huge, bold Chinese characters higher than warhead's warning level.

I wonder how the maps of other world powers have to look like when the same criterias are applied?

Talas is a battle between an Arab army and Tang forces in 751 which ended with a decisive victory of the Arabs. It is controversial discussed on this forum how much effect the battle ultimately had on the geopolitical alignment of Central Asia to the Muslim world.

Both Tang and Umayyad empire share the limelight of that time, but it's hard to see how the Umayyad empire, stretching from the Atlantic to the Indus, could have been second to any contemporary empire in terms of power.

Where was it located actually? Who invaded whom?
Do you have the map of the Arabic empire? (Is it the Umayyad empire?)

"yeah.... it is the sad reality. It's not the truth of the history that some people seek.

In any case, I am not bashing anyone that provided the maps. (unless you draw it). You guys just want to be helpful. But I am raising awareness to example historical data provided to you. "

"Talas is a battle between an Arab army and Tang forces in 751 which ended with a decisive victory of the Arabs.

It is controversial discussed on this forum how much effect the battle ultimately had on the geopolitical alignment of Central Asia to the Muslim world. "

Both Tang and Umayyad empire share the limelight of that time, but it's hard to see how the Umayyad empire, stretching from the Atlantic to the Indus, could have been second to any contemporary empire in terms of power.

"By the way Warhead, I really want to bring back the Talas thread. Because you were insisting "the ʯ‡ø's prince asking for Arabians to help" isn't related to Talas."

Both Tang and Umayyad empire share the limelight of that time, but it's hard to see how the Umayyad empire, stretching from the Atlantic to the Indus, could have been second to any contemporary empire in terms of power.

Nan Zhao at this time is also a Tang protectorate with Prefectures set up in it.

"Anyway, even at its height, to include Tibet, Nanshao or Taiwan as part of Tang is simply wrong. "

"But let's get this straight. In early Tang, there are 6 Shao in Yunnan. NanShao being the southern most Shao. It was only in 玄宗開元26年(738), that Tang appointed the king of Nanshao, 皮邏閣 Pueleigo, to be the King of Yunnan. Tang supported NanShao in its conquest over the 5 other Shao. Then when Tang tried to gain control in the region by political and military influences, Nanshao defeat Tang many times from 玄宗天寶9至13年(750-754) and switch alliance with Tibet and forced the Tang forces out of Yunnan.

Now if you ask me, this sounds like the same story that happened in Corea!"

"And I simply don't think Tang's support of 皮邏閣 makes NanShao a part of Tang at anytime."

"Our arguement over in the Talas thread was basically on if Tashkant is 石國 or is it not I think..."

蒙巂詔在今巍山縣北及漾鼻縣地，越析詔在今賓川縣地，浪穹詔在今洱源縣地，邆賧詔在今洱源縣鄧川，施浪詔在今洱源青索，蒙舍詔在今巍山縣地。因其位於諸詔之南，蒙舍詔又稱"南詔"。

An interesting note is instead of last names, the royals of NanShao (who are 烏蠻 Wu Man, instead of the population majority 爨 Cuan or 白 Bei) used the last syllebal of the father's name.  For Example 盛邏皮－皮邏閣－閣邏鳳－鳳伽異－異牟尋－尋閣勸－勸豐祐.

Some say this is the same as the 羌 Qiang's tradition.

In fact some Taiwanese Aboriginal tribes also have similar traditions.

For example, the Atayal used their father's name, as their last name:

Mona Ludo -> Sapo Mona -> Biho Sapo....

This practice sounds kind of similar to the traditional Northern European/Scandinavian convention of incorporating the father's name into the son's last name.

Erik -> Robert Eriksson -> Johan Robertsson -> Phillip Johannson

"Which neither were true."

" I was hoping to find a more historical correct map of Tang, instead of the "politically correct" maps."

"Briefly talk about the Talas topic. If you have no problem with Gao XianZhi betraying Tashkant, killed the royal family, raided the city, causing the escaped prince to Arabia.

Then I guess we argued over nothing in the Talas thread. Because we both agree on the same thing.... =_="

"The 6 Shao are MongXi Sao, YueXi Sao, LangQung Sao, DengDan Sao, ShiLang Sao and MongShe Sao. With MongShe being the furtherst south, therefore also called NanShao.

The man who was appoointed as 巍州刺史 WeiZhou governer was 細奴邏 SiNuLuo. But before this, Sinuluo already conqured MonXi and a near by kingdom called Bei. His kingdom besides being NanShao, was also called Mong 大蒙國.

Tang only worked with Nanshao because of the growing Tibetan power."

command

"If Tang had "REAL" control over the area, why doesn't Tang just rule Yunnan directly?"

"In fact NanShao was never much on the same page with Tang, besides uniting Yunnan. In fact in 742~745, when Tang was advancing into the Eastren Yunan from SiChuan, they requested NanShao to assist in the war against 爨 Cuan tribe. Instead of co-operating, the NanShao asked Tang not to attack"

"After 皮邏閣's death, Tang and Nanshao differed on appointing who to take over the title of 雲南王, and 閣邏鳳 GeLouFong was insulted by 雲南太守張虔陀 Zhang QianTuo. Note that Zhang is only a 太守. If Yunan is a state of Tang, why isn't him 刺史 or a 節度史? 閣邏鳳 GeLouFong killed Zhang while still want to remain a Tang vassal. Since Tang ignore him, he then became Tibet vassal instead."

"I think saying being a vassal means this is a independent country, but allied with Tang. So when Tang feels like they can interfere with the internal affair of their vassal states, that always breaks up the alliance."

"In fact Tibet tried the samething in 779. Tibet refused to see NanShao as a equal state, and removed the title of 東帝 (Emporer of the East) and gave a title suggesting NanShao was no longer equal partners. NanShao king 異牟尋 YiMoXuen broke off with Tibet and went for Alliance with Tang again in 794."

"However when Tang again refused to title NanShao broke off the alliance."

"In fact when you say "Tang set many protectorates in Yunan", I wonder if you know that NanShao copied a lot of Tang systems, therefore they have their own system of protectorates. "

"Tang have protectoratesfor large areas. Why would Tang setup 6 節度 protectorates in Yunnan? NanShao's own 6 節度protectorates are 劍川, 麗水, 銀生, 永昌, 弄棟 and 拓東. Perhaps you were referring to these NanShao protectorates instead of Tang protectorates?"

"The 6 Shao are MongXi Sao, YueXi Sao, LangQung Sao, DengDan Sao, ShiLang Sao and MongShe Sao. With MongShe being the furtherst south, therefore also called NanShao.

The man who was appoointed as 巍州刺史 WeiZhou governer was 細奴邏 SiNuLuo. But before this, Sinuluo already conqured MonXi and a near by kingdom called Bei. His kingdom besides being NanShao, was also called Mong 大蒙國.

Tang only worked with Nanshao because of the growing Tibetan power."

Preceisely because of growing Tubo power, Tang tried to unite Nan Zhao under one since some tribes of Western Yunnan were submitting to Tubo at times. There are much more than just 6 Zhao, these just happen to be the six large ones in Yunnan, and only really begin to form when the powerful kingdom of Bai Zi is defeated by Tang in 646. two years later, Nan Zhao incorporated Bai Zi into its domain under the order of Tang.
"If Tang had "REAL" control over the area, why doesn't Tang just rule Yunnan directly?"
Define this "REAL" control of yours in the first place. Feudal kings do not have "real" control over their feudal lords either, that doesn't mean its not part of their dominion. Feudal lords frequently disobeyed and rebelled against their kings. In fact the Islamic Caliph had little control over the emirs of Spain and also didn't rule it directly. The loose control of the Umayyad eventually led to their overthrow by the Abassids. Spain's American colony is also virtually independent. Even Canada under the British empire was known to make its own decisions, what is your point? All the requirements of control is for the subject to regognize the soverignty of the other whose foreign policy is largely controlled by that soverign state. Expecially when Yunnan is zoned into prefectures and also provided Tang troops on multiple occasions against enemies such as Tubo and the other Man.
"In fact NanShao was never much on the same page with Tang, besides uniting Yunnan. In fact in 742~745, when Tang was advancing into the Eastren Yunan from SiChuan, they requested NanShao to assist in the war against 爨 Cuan tribe. Instead of co-operating, the NanShao asked Tang not to attack"

You obviously never read Yunnan Tong Shi, during early Tang Nan Zhao provided Tang with troops to destroy Bai Zi Kingdom, and the Nan Zhao painting(Nan Zhao Tu Guan mentions the help of the celestial army). The same is recorded in the source Yunan Tong Shi and Bai Guo Shi Mo. As for the Cuan you ignored the fact that in 739 Tang sent Zu Yin Jin to the Cuan to built a fortification in An Ling which would control the Cuan. The Cuan Ri Jin, Cuan Zong Dao and other groups of Cuan used the slogan of heavy tax and attacked An Ling killing Zu. Tang immedieately counter attacked and sent Sun Xi Zhuan and Li Mi to crush the rebels, at the same time ordered Nan Zhao to provide troops. The rebels were defeated, the tribal leaders came to beg forgiveness for their crimes, But Pi Luo Ge was passionate enough to ask Xuan Zong to spare them. And this was done. Your argument of Nan Zhao's plee of not attacking does not show its incoporporation, but its use of moral which the Tang court accepted. Since the Cuan is well crushed by this time and much of Tang's campaign are simply greedy generals that want military glory as in the case of Li Mi's execution of the Cuan leaders after they surrendered.
The very unification of Yunnan itself was a Tang strategy. Nan Zhao had to ask permission from the Tang to carry out the task. And Tang collected tribute from Nan Zhao periodically, The tribes of Yunnan and later united Nan Zhao including Pi Luo Ge had to either visit the court of the Jian Nan Chi Shi.
Far from powerless Tang dicate Nan Zhao's actions on most part only when it came to extreme danger did Nan Zhao finally rebelled with moral and justice on their side against Xian Yu's brazen oppression.

"After 皮邏閣's death, Tang and Nanshao differed on appointing who to take over the title of 雲南王, and 閣邏鳳 GeLouFong was insulted by 雲南太守張虔陀 Zhang QianTuo. Note that Zhang is only a 太守. If Yunan is a state of Tang, why isn't him 刺史 or a 節度史? 閣邏鳳 GeLouFong killed Zhang while still want to remain a Tang vassal. Since Tang ignore him, he then became Tibet vassal instead."

What exactly is your point? If a mere Tai Shou could already discuss the issue of the king of Yunnan, it is enough to shows Tang's control. There was a Chi Shi, his name is Xian Yu.
Why don't you get your argument straight. Just what part of Zhang's action shows that Yunnan is not a Tang state? Yunnan is a feudal kingdom of the Tang. Thats why its not directly controlled.

"I think saying being a vassal means this is a independent country, but allied with Tang. So when Tang feels like they can interfere with the internal affair of their vassal states, that always breaks up the alliance."

There is a difference between a inner vassal and a outer vassal. Inner vassal are those that are treated like feudal lords, and Nan Zhao is in fact treated like feudal lords. The problem is that Tang did interfere with Nan Zhao's internal affair from the beginning to the end. Only when Xian Yu and Zhang Qian Tuo start to make some ridiculous demands, insult the king, meddle with his wife, and worst of all put another contender prince on the throne who was known to be (unfilial and unloyal). But that still doesn't force Nan Zhao to rebel. When Guo Luo Feng sent appeal after apeals in vain, he finally killed Zhang. Yet, when Yu Xian sent the Tang army right at the gates of Nan Zhao, Guo Luo Feng again begged forgiveness and only when Tu Xian arrogantly refused since he thought he could easily destroy Nan Zhao did it leave Guo Luo Feng with no option but rebel and ally with Tubo.
Even after his rebellion he still regret it and wrote the Nan Zhao E Hua Bei for reasons he rebelled.
"In fact Tibet tried the samething in 779. Tibet refused to see NanShao as a equal state, and removed the title of 東帝 (Emporer of the East) and gave a title suggesting NanShao was no longer equal partners. NanShao king 異牟尋 YiMoXuen broke off with Tibet and went for Alliance with Tang again in 794."

Tubo never treated Nan Zhao as equal in the first place, it was a vassal brother state. Similar to Han and xiongnu. You seem to forget the fact that Tubo ordered Nan Zhao to provide troops almost annually against the Tang and later Uighurs, devastating Nan Zhao's economy and men. Above that is heavy tribute which forces Nan Zhao to again submit to Tangg, only this time its more of an alliance and not a subjection. Nan Zhao itself had no strength to stand either Tang or Tubo when it was their vassal. Only under Tubo, Nan Zhao at least initially had the nominal title of brother state and later a vassal kingdom while under tTang it was actually officially zoned. And Nan Zhao didn't just break with Tubo, it was until 792 when Nan Zhao finally did, and thats only because it had guranteed Tang assistance since it fears its own strength can't stop Tubo. It allied with Tubo against Tang in similar fashion in 751.
"However when Tang again refused to title NanShao broke off the alliance."

The 792 submission IS more of an alliance, but the earlier submission wasn't it was a feudal submission with Tang controlling Nan Zhao's foreign policys.
"In fact when you say "Tang set many protectorates in Yunan", I wonder if you know that NanShao copied a lot of Tang systems, therefore they have their own system of protectorates. "
Yes I do, yet I'm talking about the prefecutres Tang set up nothing else. Nan Zhao set up its own prefectures in the future but again under Tang supervision and acceptance.
"Tang have protectoratesfor large areas. Why would Tang setup 6 節度 protectorates in Yunnan? NanShao's own 6 節度protectorates are 劍川, 麗水, 銀生, 永昌, 弄棟 and 拓東. Perhaps you were referring to these NanShao protectorates instead of Tang protectorates?"

they are Nan Zhao AND Tang protectorates since Nan Zhao is a feudal kingdom under the Tang.

In what way?And care to explain how it created that? For one, Talas never ended the silk road, who ever created that rubbish must be some clueless online user.No, the muslims were indifferent too, or else why did Tabari mention nothing about the battle?

天寶初。累遣朝貢。至五年。封其王子那俱車鼻施為懷化王。并賜鐵券。九載。安西節度使高仙芝奏。其王蕃禮有虧。請討之。其王約降。仙芝使部送。去開遠門數十里。負約。以王為俘。獻於闕下。斬之。自後西域皆怨。仙芝所擒王之子。西走大食。引其兵至怛羅斯城。仙芝軍大為所敗。自是西附於大食。至寶歷二年及大歷七年。並遣使朝貢。

"Yeah, you bashed every details I didn't provide

but still you couldn't explain why there were "6 Protectorates" inside such tiny place as Yunan."

"You every go as far as "Since Nan Zhao is a feudal kingdom under Tang, so there protectorates were also Tang protectorates.

When in reality, these were Nan Zhao's own protectorates setup by the kingdom of Nan Zhao. It simply showed that Nan Zhao was under Tang's cultural influence while it also showed a lot of Tubo and Southeast Asian influences."

"Those were NOT Tang protectorate. Unless you can show me that Tang appoints people to act as protectorates of 劍川, 麗水, 銀生, 永昌, 弄棟 and 拓東.

Time consuming.

Ignorant online users.

You still haven't explain how the central Asians as middlemen would have been lessen, if you suggest Tang broke off political intercourse with the Arabs then you are incorrect, Gao Xian Zhi is not the Tang court, he acted on his own will, the same can be said of Ziyad. Tang still received Arab ambassadors regularly, thats why Abbasid even provided troops to help quell An Shi at Tang's request.

Didn't the Tubo coerced the Uyghurs to make war against the Tang in 765 AD??

Though in the end the Uyghurs ganged up with the Tang and literally beat the hell out of the Tubo....XP

"Talas meant Central Asia would continue to be the profiteering middlemen for centuries to come ... not to mention providing substantial support for the Islamic empires in Central Asia and the Near/Middle East ..."
And care to explain how it created that? For one, Talas never ended the silk road, who ever created that rubbish must be some clueless online user.

"If I'm an ignorant online user, indicate the relevant section.
I never said anything about ending the Silk Road trade, so why bring that in?"

I didn't say it was you, I didn't even quote you when I posted that.