Dear Colleagues,

Could you give me any links (exept for ATARN) for the range of horseback archers?

As we can see ini the famous film of Korean horsebak archers, the range of the shot is very short. The same is in respect of Tibetan horseback archers.

Is there any links to materials showing us the shooting range of Qing horsebackarchers in comparison to foot archers?

Best regards,

Alexey.

Are you asking only about Qing horseback archers, or horseback archers in general?

I have nothing on the QIng, but here's a link to an excerpt from James Chambers' The Devil's Horsemen. Relevant quote:

I think it is only general data regarding Mongol bows as it is too difficult to pull the string and rein the horse simultaneously. As far as I know, the range of horseback shot was much shorter than the maximum range achieved by the foot Mongol archer.

So I need the real evidence of real horseback archery range (Qing preferrably).

Best regards,

Alexey.

Mounted archers fought in two distinct ways.

#1 Close range with heavy arrows fired accurately at individual targets whilst galloping across the front of the enemy. This is the technique normally seen in demonstrations of Japanese, Mongolian, Hungarian, Turkish and Tibetan "horse archery". Actual range as you loose the arrow is 10m - 20m maximum. Note: you don't actually hold the reigns whilst shooting, the archer stands (or rather raises his body, placing the weight on the insides of the lower legs). In battle this is almost at melee distance.

#2 Long range "shower shooting". Massed archers fire off large numbers of lighter, longer ranged arrows while in a stationary body or moving slowly forward. This was the favoured technique of Sassanid, Persian, Islamic Ghilman, Liao dynasty heavy cavalry, Egyptian Mamlukes and others. We have detailed Mamluke and Persian manuals on this that give effective ranges of 150m - 250m (similar to infantry archers). The manuals expect these cavalry to outshoot infantry archers. During the Islamic invasions of India they sucessfully outshot Indian infantry archers on many occasions.

Quing cavalry seem to have favoured the short range, heavy arrow approach.

rgds.
Tom..

Thank you, Tom.

As far as i know form Qing era treatises the exact distance is not stipulated. It is said that one should not releasethe arrow too early and it is all I get.

Regarding foot archery I get the exact distances of 80, 100, 130-140, 170180 bu (from 120 till 270 meters).

The weight of the arrow should be in correspondence with the bow so the common bowwas of 35 li (from 16 till 27 kgs). The arrow weighted about 16-20 gr. There are some standards of the arrow length, but famous Russian orientalist Father Iakinf (XIX century) said that all arrows made of standard length of 3 feet. He also said the bow for horseback archery should be of 3 li (16,5 kgs), According to the "Zhengnan shefa" (the end of XVII century) the weight of an arrow for such a bow should not exeed 16 gr.

The shooting performed "over mane" (forward), "over stirrup" (left or right) and 'parthian shot" (backward) that assumes the shooting when the horse is galloping. The distance to the target is not stipulated. Only the distance between tergets is descrided as to be equal of 175 feet.

So, I am buffled in the real distance of shooting during the galloping.

Alexey.

P.S. could you give me links to treatises you have mentioned?

I'm not shure how many of the Mamluk manuals are on line. Die re Militari has excerpts from one ( http://www.deremilitari.org/RESOURCES/ottomanwarfare.htm ), there may be others.

In this, and in the Ming tests to be a soldier, the distance between targets is specified but not how close you ride to them. I suspect that each individual chooses a balance between how close they go to each target and how straight a run they want. Modern horse archers say that if you get closer than 10m then the gallop past is so fast that it's hard to turn your body fast enough to aim properly. In battle the problem would be getting too close to the infantry and exposing yourself to a quick rush out and spear thrust from an individual. Interestingly ancient Egyptian texts on exploits of great archers (in chariots) involve gallopinng past a series of small targets set about 180 ft apart and hitting each with an arrow.

The key thing with the short range, is to get an accurate aimed shot with a heavy arrow.

rgds.
Tom..

Good thread...the figures are reasonable, and consistent with the information I have seen for performance of missile weapons (and target shooting versus indirect fire).
SOmetimes it is worth actually pacing out these ditances and seeing how it figures against groups and mansized targets.
Note also that during WW2 it was found even modern infantry rarely engage with personal weapons over 500m, and this led to the development of 'short ammo' for both NAto & Warsaw Pact armies instead of the heavy long range rifle rounds (Ian Hogg/Guns & Gunsmiths).
The comments about the 2 different ranges (target & flight ranges) seem correct also, and match both modern sport archery & experiments with ancient weapons.

if horse archers were to attack a standing archer army would they spread out there horse archers and keep them moving and shoot the enemy at close range ?

As far as I know there are some examples in "Qidanguo zhi" by Ye Longli.

When Jin (one of Wudai shi era states) infantry fortified themselves with palisade Qidan cavalry tried to attack them. Due to the big quantity of cross-bows jin soldiers inflicted mass casualties among Qidan cavalrymen and they had to retreat.

The weapon of Qidan cavalry is not described for that battle but in any case every Qidan cavalryman had up to 4 bows of different strength. So we can see the army of cavalrymen even in armour attacked cross-bow wielding infantry with very bad results.

Best regards,

Alexey.

if a horseman is running sideways it would be harder to shoot a lower velocity arrow and hit him than a straight shooting crossbow bolt?
but howcome the use of crossbow declined after han .massed crossbow should theoritically be able to defend infantry armies from horse archer armies dont u think?

The key factor here are the field fortifications.

The Han believed that steady crossbowmen could shood down a cavalry charge before it hit them (using rotating fire techniques). The widespread introduction of horse armour tipped this infavor of the cavalry. During five dynasty period Hsiung-bei cavalry repeatedly rode down infantry from various states.

Quidan cavalry of the Liao operated in large 6000 man units shooting lots of arrows at long range, as they did this individual 600 man units took turns at makeing probing charges, if the enemy stood firm, the chargers shot in some heavy arrows and retired. If the enemy wavered the unit charged home and the remaining cavalry charged in. The critical factor seems to have been the infantry holding their nerve. The Song troops facing them made widespread use on field fortifications, catapults etc to keep the cavalry at bay.

rgds.
Tom..

the cross bow was an effective anti cavalry weapon but it had no implications on Han China's quality of cavalryman. as we all know, Han dynasty was the first dynasty to have an excellent all around cavalry IE cavalry as a main striking force instead of just being used to route enemies. horse archery was a skill many Chinese cavalryman had perfected. the introduction of heavy cavalry made the crossbow less popular but by then cavalry in general had already been common in Chinese armies

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speaking of horse archery, i went horse riding the other day. its been a while, loads of fun

because standing archery is not so mobile and unstable. an extremely heavy draw weight is optimable since you have the time to focus on such a task

my 110 pounder (i would never consider shooting this baby from horseback)



my 60 pounder i would definitely use from horse back. most horse archers recommend using a bow under 50 pounds for horse archery but i'm known at the local range for drawing heavy weights effectively so i would never as a personal rule use any bow under 50 pounds

110lb huh? Thats a mighty weight. You must have both a serious grip and upper body strength to weild that!
Out of curiousity, what might be a maximum flight at an optimum angle with such a bow & what sort of distance is practical for target shooting?
....and at the same time how does the 60lb bow compare fro range and target shooting?

Clothes on the floor too...yeah, I know all about that. Its much easier to decide what to wear that way.

for my 110 pounder, i shoot at 100 yards. it could easily go further but i have trouble seeing the target past that distance

60 pounder, i shoot at 30 yards

btw, in most archery ranges in the USA, shooting at an upward angle is not allowed since they can't take responsibility if the arrow flies out of the range and hurts someone.

the only time i've shot an optimum upward angles is when my friends and i sneak onto ball fields late at night and fire them in at upwards angles. we've never had time to measure the exact distance and guage the angles. an archery instructor could easily tell you but it will vary alot on draw weight, arrow weight, and of course proper release

i plan on visiting a real archery FIELD (probably in Hungary) to learn horse archery and fully explore different angles without legal ramifications

i'm from rural Henan, of course my upper body strength is good

anyway, finally.

110 pounder vs. 60 pounder

I use my 110 pounder for hunting for obvious reasons though the drawing of such a heavy bow can be heard by certain animals and they run away. Since bows are no longer used to kill enemies on the battle field, such a heavy draw weight is unrealistic to use. its extremely dangerous to string and unstring

also, the full draw/speed ratio is also a factor. the full speed of the bow is achieved when there is a FULL draw with a "perfect" release regardless of the draw weight. because its so excruciating to draw the 110 pounder, sometimes i make an incomplete draw

but with the 60 pounder, i get full draw extremely easily utilizing the full "speed" of the bow. i can get 6 accurate shots out with it in one minute so far.

Thanks.
Your comments on ranges are similar to another fellow I asked who shoots modern composite bows based on a Turkish design.
Sounds like fun...and space isnt a problem here in NZ, as my parents have some rural land.
Might have to try and rustle up a bow from somewhere one day.
hmmm.

Aaahhhh.... Kenneth, I wanna visit you when you get your horse archery down pat! I'll bring my bow and go do some target shooting!

hmm turkish design...

anyway, my 110 pounder (though based on ottoman turk designs) was the common static recurve Chinese used before the Yuan dynasty. extremely heavy draw weight and long overall length of bow

my 60 pounder is based on Mongol/Ming era Chinese bows. it has a string bridge, slightly shorter (obviously not as short as a Scythian or korean bow), and a 34 inch draw length (the standard Chinese draw length as opposed to the Mongol 32 inch)

hmmm... very short draw lengths!

thats because i don't use those freakish 5 foot plus modern recurves you do

It's 5ft+ coz I'm 6ft+ Ya callin' me freakish bud? hehehehe

actually, i wish i was 6 ft +. i'm only 5'10 which is average height i guess

most of the 6 ft plus archers i know prefer their recurve bow lengths around 55 inches(strung)

btw, do you go hunting

Growing up in MT I learned to ride horse's at a young age. With good training a rider can control the horse with their legs leaving their hands free.

cheers

i'm still working on that. my instructor tells me to alternate leg pressure to move it but its quite difficult

i have shot from horseback but it was a only at a fast canter and not a full gallop

I agree, using leg pressure isn't easy. I haven't rode in years so there is no way I could do it now.

That was the advantage of the steppe people, they started young and rode a lot, probably daily.

Was it difficult to shoot while at a canter?

Cheers

chris

it was easy, i've done foot archery (standing, crouching, running) for years and on a horse at a canter with stirrups (ie you don't have to grind into the horse up and down to keep balanced), it was easy as hell

According to the records of Russian scholar and traveller Vasily V. Radlov (XIX) nomads used to take a baby with them only up to 6 month. Then they used special "baby saddle' (Kazakh "bala ashamai") where the baby might sit down and ride when the mother led the horse by reigns. After 3 years old the babies were used to changed the "bala ashamai" for usual saddle but of smaller size to ride as usual people.

So they could ride much better then non-nomadic nations.

Best regards,

Alexey.

Have you seen the show on the Crusades by History Channel? They show a guy riding a horse shooting a bow. It was interesting.

Interesting bit by Alexey about baby's riding horses. Thanks.

Chris