Hi Shunyadragon,
I got a couple of responses which between them addresses the points of long distance trade at very early times, artefactual types, nephrite sources, "calcite" etc.

I asked a few folk or their thoughts on the sources of jade worked by Dong Son communities.
Melanie Roy (recently a CHF member), who is certainly a notable expert on the examination and {proffesional} metallurgical analysis of ancient bronzes responded;

"I am unfamiliar with the sources of jade in the Yunnan area, but there was extensive trade with that region and mainland China as far back as the Zhou dynasty. Lead isotope analysis** on several hundred, if not more, ancient Chinese bronzes has revealed that the lead came from Yunnan. With that kind of trade it is not unreasonable for jade to have made its way down to Yunnan.

As for glass, there is evidence of foreign glass in China at least as far back as the Warring States period, so the Dong Son culture could easily have acquired some as well.*"

*Glass was initially exported into China from the 'near East' and India in the Warring States period and used to make beads. Glass was still imported in the Han period and was an expensive item, used in similar ways to jade.
The Dong Son examples may well come from Indian sources as there was a 'Southern Silk road' known to exist in the Han period which moved Chinese goods via India. Han Wudi sent emmisaries to locate this route, who came to bad ends.
Glass was moved as blocks and then heated into a soft state and formed into objects. Some objects were traded as finished articles, like 'eye beads'.
Chemical analysis can distinguished local and imported objects.


**The use of lead isotope analysis to identify specific sources for lead, i.e the actual mine, have shown that much of the lead used in ancient China came from Yunnan.
I had read of this in a report on Chinese bronzes by Prof. Bavarian but it slipped my mind in the present context.
In recasting of objects ancient bronzes might mix the seperate lead signatures in objects but this technique has revealed that of the famous Ba culture bronzes of Sichuan in the Shang period, i.e the masks of SanXinDui & the bronzes in the Royal Shang tomb of consort Fu Hao in Anyang, amazingly the lead came from the same & unique Yunnan source.
There was then a system of exhange that linked the distant and mysterious south to the central plains then. Such material as lead ingots and likely precious stones can change hands many times.

Certainly an ancient trade network existed even distributing to the central plains in the ancient period as confirmed by lead isotope analysis, but a local origin for nephrite is suggested by mention of Dong Son localities as yeilding nephrite below.
While there is oppurtunity for jade to come to Yunnan it is also said to occur locally.
Note; the sources used by ancient peoples can be called 'micro-sources' and not be included in geological surveys of broad regions that study formations as 'macro-sources'.
I know of examples in NZ where very discrete and localised sources of stone may be worked and traded long distances.
Also ancient sources over long periods can be exhausted and exact origins of materials unknown. I have heard that allegedly one jade culture in China worked nephrite of a type no longer availible to modern forgers.

Chad Herrington kindly sent me a Pdf. of an article by Sam Bernstein (of S. Bernstein & Co. Jade & Oriental Art) which discusses his published collection.
The pieces on this thread are from the same collection,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

etc.
{has a list of texts, and identified comparible examples in them, i.e; calcite bangle forms in excavations.}

Iwill disagree with the note that there may be 'micro sources' of nephrite in Yunnan. See thread on nephrite sources in China. The geology of China and Yunnan is known in more detail, in part due to extensive modern prospecting for minerals, than many non-Geologists understand. Yes, there are small deposits in many localities in the world and in China some are known to mined or foraged to the point none is left, but they are still associated with a suitable nephrite bearing bedrock like blueschist. The problem with Yunnan and the other provinces of southern China is that the Geology is not even close to the type of rock formations absolutely necessary of nephrite to occur. The rock formations for jadeite are also entirely absent until you go south into Myanmar (Burma).

Yes, I was correct in assuming that what is called Calcite here is in fact Marble or an amorphous limestone material. I have some examples of very attractive modern carvings out of an amorphous calcareous material.

I also spent two years in Kunming researching this and discussed this with local geologists. In this time I visited many areas to look at the geology myself. Yes, there were rumors of nephrite and of course jadeite, but no, they do not occur in the formations of Yunnan. Despite the claims of Professor Dung, it is impossible for nephrite to form in limestone or marble rock formations. Nephrite only forms in low temperature, high pressure metamorphic zones in subduction zones where Blueschists are formed. Jadeite forms in similar formations of low temprature high pressure subduction zones where Sodium (Na) dominates.

New zealand has classic typical proper rock formations for the jade found there even whe reported in small amounts.

I am not comfortable with Sam Bernstein's academics, and some of the articles published in his 'journal-like' publications are questionable. They are very attractive and glossy, but his commercial interests in jade caste a shadow on his publications. I may go into this in more detail later on some individual topics in the future. This cause some heat and controversy.

I would be interested in published works by Professor Dung or others that give more details to the reportd nephrite found in Yunnan Provice, localities, and the type of rock the nephrite was found in. If possible I would like a copy of this article that you recieved, but I need more than 'reported finds that are undocumented.'

The best reference I can give in my journeys and studies in China is Yang Boda, whom I had a personal interview with and a collection of his publications.

Since the south trade network existed it is possible for nephrite to come all the way from the same sources the ancient Shang or Zhou may have used.
A local source is not required, as something presumably came in the opposite direction as lead which went north.
Since you are obviously very interested in the subject I would suggest you find the article by Prof. Dung (assumedly the same Nguyen Kin Dung of "Ancient Jade Manufacturing Traditon in Vietnam") as the 'local mountains' may refer to sources outside of Yunnan, as the cultural area is larger than that and the reference to 'local' was a little vague. The 'Yunnan cultural sphere' was defined as larger than the current PRC province.
Can you confirm there are no suitable zones in either Thailand or Vietnam?
It would seem quite wrong for Prof. Dung to report the 'presence' of a material which does not exist, but of course geology is only a coincidental interest of mine. Even with that in mind the presence of limestone and nephrite together sounded pretty odd to me. If you are certain of geological information to counter the suggestion it could even exist then I will disregard that reference and assume the nephrite is from further afield.
There were certainly mechanisms in place for nephrite to have travelled long distances.

I did see your thread on nephrite sources BTW. As jade is not my main area of artefactual studies I only know the most famous sources.
I am also aware that Yang Boda is a recognised expert in Chinese jades, so you are fortunate to be able to discuss these topics with him.

Thank you for your response. It does show i need to do some homework on the sources you cited. My principle interest here is well documented sources of the occurance of nephrite and jadeite localities where I have not researched. I may return to Asia next year to do some more field work an like source.

I do feel that more documentation of sources, and developing methods to matching nephrite and jadeite to the sources can better document trade routes and relationships between Neolithic Cultures. This has been done well to document the nephrite trade from Xinjiang region to central and eastern China beginning about 4000 to 3800 years ago, but more work needs to done for other localities and sources.

Just for some more info on jade working outside of China, and more in the sphere of Sino-Viet or even more distant SouthEast Asian cultures, I got this from Will Stuart (another person with more knowledge of these types of ornamentation and the aspects non-Chinese jade working than me).
Bear in mind he is offering his opinions on sources, he also was commenting on Prof. Dung as I quoted him who he would be unlikely have your background by which to doubt this 'cultural sphere'/local mountain idea for nephrite. I will make sure to inform him of your doubts about Yunnan at least.
He does however seem to think Vietnam or further south is more probable than Yunnan for origins, and it may well be such 'local' source Dung was meaning in his oblique and rather confusing reference since 'Yunnan cultural sphere' can be defined in quite broad terms. He appears to be a Vietnamese archaeologist, so the reference is a bit enigmatic.

Both Nephrite and Jadeite mines could be found in Northern Vietnam (Son La province) as well as other corundum mines (compatible gem quality to that of Burma); Before the Sinicized period in Vietnam, ancient Vietnamese had already mined and used nephrites for ornamental purposes (1400-1000 BC). Ancient jade (nephrite) ornaments were found at a production center recently excavated at Trang Kenh (Hai Phong). In Central Vietnam, the ancient Sa-Huynh people also created nephrite ornaments and beads as well as glasses which left their marks throughout Southeast Asia (from Thailand through the Philippines penisula). Yes, before the arrival of the Chinese from the northern part of the Yangze river, the ancient Southeast Asian people had develop their own unique cultures as well. Perhaps with more objective view of the ancient cultural developments in the East and Southeast region, we could identify better achievements of the ancient people who lived in this vast region and they did leave their marks not only in agriculture developments (wet rice farming, domesticated animals of pigs and chickens...) but also in the advent of metal minings as well as cultural and artistic development in lieu of the ancient jade culture as we start to acknowledge yet.

Thanks for the info. It seems that sourcing from within the Dong Son sphere is likely, and Shunyadragon should be able to confirm these now the localities are named so specifically.

Since this thread seems to have come back to life again I should make efforts to post more of the artefacts from the assemblage.
There are still quite a number of bracelets of hard stone, nephrite & calcite (and even possibly serpentine based on ones fracture patterns) and long stone beads and round carnelian beads for me to add.
Chad had confirmed that 2 socketed bronze axes he sent with the lot were from the same source.
The axes are here; http://z8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_Cent...p?showtopic=177 and are Sino-Viet in style.

The distintive heavy calcite bangles really need adding to compare with the finer nephrite collared discs.
A number of calcite bi (in fragments) were also in the same group.
Something I will work on this weekend when I have time for photography....

Very interesting. Your reference to nephrite and jadeite from Vietnam inspired me to make an net search and found this:

Gemstones in Vietnam, A review by Pham Van Long1, Gaston Giuliani2, Virginie Garnier3, Daniel Ohnenstetter3

Reprinted from The Australian Gemmologist
Volume 22, Number 4, October–December 2004

This gives support for the argument that Vietnam itself is the source of the nephrite for the Neolithic Cultures.

I found some old pictures on my PC of 3 calcite articles.


Repaired 'typical' calcite bangle.
(note the different form and cross section to nephrite)



Heavy & large calcite bangle.
(quite cumbersome. I will weigh this and add the figure to the thread, as it is oddly heavy)



Thin 'bi' disc
(note cemented root marks.
This is one I sanded a tiny section to reveal the blue-ish translucent stone under the calcination)

a fascinating topic, for a novice who only knows about jewelry green jade.
do you have any geological comparisons between the nephrites of New Zealand, British Columbia and Asia?
Burmese Jewelry Jade, what are their related sources elsewhere in the world?

Nephrite form Kunlunshan in Xinjiang is probably the best nephrite in the world, and it is likely the largest deposit in the world. The best colors are mostly white and pale green, but there are some very dark nephrites that are almost black and some interesting mottled gray and browns. Lesser colors are darker greens, yellow and blue. It is the toughest nephrite for carving, likely only riviled by New Zealand, which to me has the next best in terms of quality. New Zealand nephrite is generally darker greens, but there are some nice white stones.

I like Wyoming nephrite better than Canada, but the known deposites are not large, An interesting color found there is pink.

British Colombia being the next largest Xinjiang. There are pretty colors, brighter colors than Kunlushan in China, and there are some Tiger Eye nephrite too, but this nephrite is more brittle.

Taiwan nephrite is brittle and includes Tiger Eye. The colors are brighter greens than Kunlunshan and white, with other lesser colors. Korean nephrite is similar to Taiwan, but more white.

Siberia has nephrite, but it is generally poor quality.

I just recently learned of Vietnamese nephrite here, and know little about it.

Per several sources which indicate the quality of nephrites found in Vietnam is not of "gem" grade but more suitable for ornamental purposes ....! A few years ago, Vietnam was the second source of high grade ruby (compatible to that of Burma) but the fad ... seems to dying off ...; however, the control of the gem quality mines in Vietnam is remained quite secretive ... therefore .. there are still plenty of room for rumors to run amok!

I read a few months ago in some international news, perhaps the BBC's, that looted Chinese artefacts tend to be smuggled into HK. Once in HK, they can be 'legally' (according to HK law) sold onward.

In that light, as much as I would like to possess ancient Chinese artefacts, I do not think that I would want to collect any from unprovenanced sources, at least not until the smuggling will have been controlled and HK law will have changed to require provenance for the legal sale of all such antiquities ...

Smuggling is very real, counterfeiting is probably the biggest game in HK. No it is not legal in HK to market in contraband jades from China. Chinese dinosaur fossils from Liaoning were the hot item for a while but this market has cooled off, because of China's policy of executing smugglers.