Look strikingly like present day Vietnamese. It suggests that the population of Vietnam had remained intact after 1000 years of Chinese occupation. It looks very Khmer to me.

With the protruding prognathism of the mouth and chin, they look like they have African admixture.

I've heard one theory is that we all human beings evolve from people who somehow look like modern Africans, so there should be some 'intermediate type' that looks between Asians, Europeans and Africans.

I don't understand what you mean by 'Very Khmer', Ahman. Look two pictures below (very different):

Cambodians (Khmer, very Indonesian)


Vietnamese (Viets, NOT very Indonesian)

in the past protruding teeth was common in all regions of the world. This was because of eating habits.
Indonesian are also Khmer, grasy.

Can you show us some pictures of modern vietnamese look strikingly alike with these pictures? I don't think they look alike at all to modern Vietnamese....

It looks like Ahman's relatives or something b/c he is part of Khmer. I guess my parents don't look like that at all. My mom looks like Korean and my dad looks like Southern Chinese. Ahman's case is uncommon in Vietnam but I still consider him as an educated Vietnamese as a respect for his knowledge. In Ahman's mind, Vietnamese today he thinks is mostly Khmer. I already told him that some Vietnamese look like North Chinese, South Chinese, Korean, Japan, Indian, Combodian, Phillipino, Malaysian, Thai, Laos, and etc. There is no concrete feature to describe the exact of Vietnamese. In my experience, most of Vietnamese I see have similar faces with Southern Chinese although they are generally mixed w/ other ethnic groups.

Clearly Ahman thinks the 'Khmer' look includes South Chinese.
I asked: [snapback]4722340[/snapback]
He thought: [snapback]4722371[/snapback]

If we want to bar the minority, then xng was right.

Ahman's definition for 'Khmer' may include nearly all type of Mongoloids, even Northern types like Mongolian/Siberian.

are you mockerying me?
Khmer is Khmer, Chinese is Chinese, Vietnamese is Vietnamese: that what I always tried to assert.
Some people here say Vietnamese look like Southern Chinese; I said they look more like Khmer. Where did I say that Siberian look Khmer or souther Chinese look Khmer? I NEVER STEREOTYPED THAT CANTONSE LOOK KHMER, I JUST GUESSED FROM THE PICTURES THAT THEY LOOK KHMER.
I don't have any immediate Khmer relatives but judging my look I think I have Khmer blood in me. Everyone around me has this same look. My point to nguoiViet is if he don't accept Vietnamese have Khmer blood and look Khmer then he has no right asking Cantonse to respect Yue ethnicity because there as apparent analogy here. If he say Vietnamese have Southern Chinese look then he has to define how a Southern Chinese looks like, which is impossible because by the analogy of"Vietnamese has all lookings", southern Chinese also has all lookings ranging from Khmer to Japan
I guess if you guys see your poor relatives then you just kick them out of the house and say: scum how dare you think you are my relatives (remember Ah Q and Mr Zhao?)

What I find hard to understand in your comments, AhMan, is this:



Indonesians are generally Malay (except for the Papuans), and Austronesian in origin. Are you suggesting that the Malays and Khmer are essentially the same?

I said Vietnamese have the looks and blood of many countries, including a little bit of Khmer. I accept it. What's wrong w/ you Ahman? You don't have to write it to convince me b/c I know the history of Yue and I respect for the truth. I have Chinese blood in me the most but it doesn't mean that I am Chinese.

So you admit you are Chinese descents. Then you are no Vietnamese and you can't apply your case to all Vietnamese.

Cambodian:


Northern Vietnamese:


Chinese family in Saigon (south Vietnam:

I don't apply to all but to nearly half. Is that ok? I am a Vietnamese American and no Chinese. My traceable came from South China. So I consider myself a Yue Ren, not Han Ren, up to my choice. Han is just national identity. No Chinese descendent b/c the Han was popular in South to get people to work together to drive the Mongolians out of China. The Mongols are out now and I can have my identity back

Sorry if I did
We are not trying to say "who is who" but "who is SIMILAR TO whom"From my pictures I saw your thought of "they are Khmeric" while they definitely describes "one part of South Chinese". My father once told me that he distinguish 华人脸 "Sinitic face" and 印尼脸 "Indonesian face" for South East Asians. Khmers are (mostly) 印尼脸 "Indonesian face" and Vietnamese are (mostly) 华人脸 "Sinitic face" (to him, not to me). So he meant Khmer~Indonesian and not ~Vietnamese (~: approx. equal to)A point here: I guess you probably shares feature with my pictures? May I see your photo?
AND I NEVER SAID THAT THE ONES IN MY PICTURES ARE MOSTLY CANTONESE.What probably he meant was "standard South Chinese". I've never seen what probably "印尼脸" in (non-Indonesian mixed) Southern Chinese. Those on my pictures are said to be "华人脸" and not "印尼脸". It seems that South Chinese ranges from these "Khmers" and not the actual Khmers (Cambodian natives). You mean "we must admit any gene in us, Khmer or anything", isn't it?
It seems that I and Ahman suggests like that.
Indonesians <=> Austronesians, most thinks?
And did you want to say Khmer is not from Austronesians? Why?
Yeah, it seems that many people are genetically not what they think they are...

QUOTE
I guess if you guys see your poor relatives then you just kick them out of the house and say: scum how dare you think you are my relatives (remember Ah Q and Mr Zhao?)

You mean "we must admit any gene in us, Khmer or anything", isn't it?

I did not mean it, genetics have little to do with what I said. What I am saying is Vietnamese and Khmer are relatives and closely related by languages and probably genetics.
I didn't want to show my face and I probably won't. But who know. In a good day, if I feel good I will do it

Many people just say what they want to say, but not what they believe in their heart. They can pretend they don't know the differences between a dog and a cat and not aware of the similarities between a jaguar and a leopard.
They apply that 'strategy of pretention' to grouping people of various ethnics and nationalities, taking advantages of there being no clear boundary of human looks, to make their propaganda.

Math Olympiads, right?

So what do you want to say about this?
There are some boundary of ethnic's looks, but it definitely surpasses some other ethnics' boundary. The boundary seems to be racial rather than ethnical.
For example: Germans' ethnic boundaries may surpass British's but do not surpass Africans'.


Wrong. Physics Olympiad.

I see your point. But you didn't see mine. I didn't say 'there is no boundary', but 'there is no CLEAR boundary'. Pick a long thread of string, one end is white, the other is black, and the color is mixed in between. You can easily tell the difference between the two ends of the long thread. But if picking a small area in between, the boundary is blurred. This is where some guy starts to spin. Applied to this case, he would tell what a people look like not by their looks but by their ethnicity, if that is known. Otherwise, he would guess the their ethnicity first (in this stage, trying to be as much objective as possible because he couldn't lie to himself), then categorize them according to his agenda. That's what I mean by 'tactics of pretention'.
Regarding to the picture of the Vietnam PO team, for other guys in the picture, I am not sure. But, I read from the news that the girl in the middle got a gold medal and became the first female student of Vietnam to get a gold medal in a PO contest, and also among a few exceptions of femal students globally winning a gold medal in the contest history.

Sorry. I didn't read your post carefully.

She is not the first Vietnamese Female to get gold in PO in general, she may be the first in IPhO, but in the APhO the first one is Bui Lena.
Refer to this link:
www.tofi.or.id/q22003/id/news/readnews.php?id=13

Sorry, IPO is what I meant. I read it from the news. Your link doesn't work. However, Bui Lena doesn't sound like she is Vietnamese in Vietnam. I guess she is an overseas Vietnamese. But the news counts Vietnamese in Vietnam only. Thanks, anyway. It seems you know a lot about Vietnamese.

Sound that we are far-displaced from the original topic?

I attempted to access the Asian Physics Olympiad website http://www.apho.org/ but it cannot be done from this computer.
About Bui Lena, it seemed she won the medal in either Taiwan or Singapore... I don't remember. I may have misred the contents of the site (what she got), but I'm sure that she is from Vietnam.

added August 1st:
the link is http://www.phy.ntnu.edu.tw/apho2001/

My picture with an ichthyologist. I helped him out with translation in Middle Truong Son. The guy wearing uniform is the forest ranger of this area.


there are more pictures to come, not to show my face but to prove that I am Vietnamese living in Vietnam and thus not like some people here who just know Vietnam through "some websites"

Posting thousands of your pictures doesn't prove anything. Don't waste your time. Validity of your arguments can't be judged by your ethnicity.

I am wasting my time, not yours dude. And where is the evidence that my arguement has been refuted? From you or somebody else?
Ethnicity does matter in this issue. I am trying to be objective while some people are lying to themselves and try to cover the truth with stereotype, ill-supported evidence.

Oh, come on. When I say: 'don't waste your time', do you think I really care of your time budget? As well when I say "that thing is stinky, don't smell it", do you think I really care if you put your nose in and sniff ? And did I say anything about your argument being refuted ?? I just said: "the validity of your argument can't be judged by your ethnicity." So instead of making it more valid by posting pictures, just simply focus on your logic, work on it. And don't think I really care about it.

Again, that's exactly what I am talking about. Do you think anything you say about the Vietnamese is valid by just being an ethnic Vietnamese currently living in Vietnam???? The way you are trying to be 'objective' is well catched here. Who is lying, covering the truth with stereotype, giving ill-supported evidence and false impression could be judged by the readers.
Ok, I don't want to be overeacting. But when you posted the resconstructed skulls and said, "Look strikingly like present day Vietnamese. It suggests that the population of Vietnam had remained intact after 1000 years of Chinese occupation. It looks very Khmer to me," please tell me: are you lying to yourself ? If not, could you please post some pictures of present-day Vietnamese that look strikingly like these faces ? Let give us any number of examples that you think it's convincing enough to give the impression of present-day Vietnamese looking strikingly like that. I will let you deliberately select them. You can even select some montagnards to fake it if you want. Or you can even photoshop them. Or just post some pictures and say: "it look strikingly the same to me" is fine with me too. Actually, I am really interested in knowing what is in your mind and your intention than visibly seeing what you give us. Also, the readers can judge by themselves.
But remember I really don't care if you post them or not. If not, I would perfectly understand. Okay.

The one with green cloth has a strong non-Chinese feeling for me.. I also notice there is one European.


Come on weiwei, think that the others can do like what you did.
If "don't waste your time" may mean not "I care of your time budget", "I am wasting my time, not yours dude" means "You don't have the right to choose for me (whether you care or not)". Don't you think weiwei is very rude (and not far thinking)?

Go directly to "WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE VIETNAMESE". I think you (weiwei) want to HIDE YOUR OWN OPINION.


I don't believe the "Khmer-ness of Vietnamese" here just because Vietnamese are unlike Indonesian. I want to see more faces of Vietnamese to find out which of them look Khmer (it's still possible to find, but probably ethnic half-Khmer).

Let me step back and apologize for sounding rude in my previous post. I just responded to his rude reply. When I said "...don't waste your time...", it was just in normal tone. It is just the same as when someone were arguing with you and said "don't keep quoting others' works, instead of focusing on the logic. Otherwise it's waste of time. Simply quoting won't make me believe you anyway'..."
"Don't waste your time" of couse doesn't mean "I care of your time budget", but means " I care about the logic he used to argue" if you read the whole sentence of mine. He didn't have to say "You don't have the right to choose for me" because I didn't assert my right to tell him how to use his time budget unless I said "You are not allowed to use any of your time to post your pictures".
Ok, let's make it short: "don't waste your time" in this particular context (read the whole thing) is a recommendation, not a command.
I hope that cleared the problem here and hope there will be no more of this.

You don't get my point at all when I gave you the example of a long thread of string with two colors (black and white) at its ends. That's my point. There's no clear and deterministic rules of telling Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Vietnamese, Cambodians, and others ... apart. They all possess both similar and different physical features. But the differences changes gradually not abrubtly like a German and a Rwanda. It is quite useful to make some comments on how a typical or uniqute feature a group of people should possess. But it is totally ridiculous to judge people's look based on their ethnicity. When seeing a statement like "a Vietnamese doesn't look anywhere like a Chinese, but looks very Khmer, looks strikingly like those reconstructed faces" has been consistently made in a tone of strong assertion, then there must be something going on there. Whenever talking about the Vietnamese look, regardless of how he or she looks, you would see a statement like that coming in. That's 'look by ethinicty' not 'look by looking'.
Look: given those rescontruted faces to normal people, if someone say 'they look strikingly like present-day Vietnamese', I think, the commentor must have applied some pretention.
I hope you get my point now.

I will comment on your comments about the Indonesian, the Khmer, and the Vietnamese when I am clearer of your point.

I guess you are thinking that some of the statements here are results of pretending, since they seem not very logical?
Yeah, the statement is quite strange, you may refer to my pictures which is implied to be similar to Vietnamese. You can guess in what region Chinese look like Vietnamese.
What's the purpose of Ahman's visit to PRC? If it's for tour then he only visited tourism region or large cities.
Ahman may not have visited ChaoZhou, or Chinese community of Malaysia/Indonesia (definitely South Chinese areas).
Malay-mixed Chinese looks extremely different from normal, that's a safe point not to mistake.

My point is that we compare all to Indonesian, looking by our farthest relevant edge of discussion. The boundary will be at least clearer than comparing with Vietnamese, which may seem in the middle of them.
Indonesian looks ranges from modern Ainu to half-Negroid-Mongoloid, it will cover all Cambodians, but not (general) Vietnamese. Very few of Vietnamese (may not be pure Kinh) actually is covered.

I'm Vietnamese-Chinese, I can say " Vietnamese different from Khmer, you can see some one look like Khmer , because Some vietnamese took some land from Khmer in history , anh they also mixed their blood with Khmer, Some Vietnamese look like Khmer

Most modern Vietnamese is very different from Khmer.
Vietnamese have same root with Thai (different culture arises from Indian and Chinese influence). Later mix brings effect in Khmer looking.

Khmer may have some Vietnamese-like heritage but their non-Vietnamese gene is just too much.

Ah man and the green shirt guy can pass off as a chinese in singapore/malaysia without confusing them with malays.

Khmer people look like malays/indonesians whereas vietnamese kinh looks like southern chinese.

Khmer people represent only a minority of vietnamese because most of them fled to cambodia when the vietnamese conquered part of their land. Those who remained behind can be seen by their facial characteristics and skin color.

Exactly,Vietnamese should look like their Chinese counterparts of aboriginal origin in southern China who share ' Yue ' roots whereas proto-Vietnamese look more indigenous Thais,same as some Koreans can pass as NE Chinese because both are of northern Chinese heritage.

Otherwise,most Vietnamese and Koreans have their ' distinctive ' ethnic facial features that we can tell them apart from the general Han-Chinese population.

* see photos posted by me in this ' Vietnamese looks '

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...00#entry4952740

and under what premise are these examples that you have selectively chosen representative of the "distinctive" Vietnamese look?

under what proof do you have that in which you can claim that similarities between some Koreans and NE Chinese are because of northern Chinese heritage?

genetics can far back, beyond the creation of modern ethnicities.

your logic is flawed because
1. Yue were not one group of people because the term was generously applied to ethnic groups in what is now southern china
2. the borders of northern Chinese dynasties have constantly changed as well as the ethnic groups living in what is now NE China
3. The definition of Hua/Han/ and Chinese have constantly changed

yet you assume these values are all static and use them in your arguements.

These people don't look like any Vietnamese I have seen. My first impression is they looked like black Africans, but there was something strange about them...

To me these people look like Negritos, they still exist in some part of the Philippines, islands off the Indian Coast, Indonesia, New Guinea.

It is thought they were the first Southeast Asians, having come from Africa along a Southern Route, so they never changed phenotype much because they didn't live outside of a tropic environment, they just walked the coast lines all the way into Southeast Asia, which was possible, due to ice ages that made the oceans shallower and exposed more land.

These people are from the Philippines:






Likely before Austro-Asiatic speakers came out of Southern China these people lived in present day Vietnam in sparse numbers scattered about....they were hunter-gathers with very limited "farming" or maybe proto-farming techniques.