Wing Chun kungfu that was popularized by the late Bruce Lee. He says his sifu (master) Yip Man took the martial art from Guangzhou and spread it to Hong Kong after 1949 revolution and civil war. But, the legend says that it started from a nun (Yim Wing Chun) who practiced it by imitating crane movements in Yunnan. But, some people say Wing Chun is no different from other Shaolin derived southern kungfu boxing styles. They claim it is likely from Fujian too.

Which province did it really originate from?

Ng Mui, Jee Seen, Hung Hei Guan, 5 ancestors, etc. all claimed to be from the Southern Shaolin temple in Potian, Fukien. So I guess you can say that all if not most southern Shaolin styles came from Fukien. Though they all prospered in Guangzhou.

One problem about that theory is that there is no convincing evidence that Southern Temple ever existed. Neither of the people you talked about ever claimed themselves to be from Southern Shaolin. It was people after them that said it.
As for the 5 ancestors, it is extremely unlikely that they were monks at all. If you actaully look at their names, non of them were that of monks.

true

Wing Chun is the name of a county in Fujian (Fukien). Ng Mui may have studied at Southern Shaolin but I would contend that Wing Chun originated in Guangdong because of the roots of Yim Wing Chun, the girl, not Wing Chun, the county.

I dunno if Yim Wing Chun is related to my family/clan or not, but what I do know is that she and her dad are originally from Guangdong. Ng Mui may have formulated the art, but it was the girl that perfected it.

But that's strictly my interpretation.

According to the legend

The legend
There are many versions of the Wing-Chun Kung-Fu legend. They are all quite similar. The essence of the stories is identical. The story below is the version that is commonly used by the Association.

Wing-Chun Kung-Fu is a Kung-Fu from a Southern Chinese village called Fatshan. Originally, it was developed at a Buddhist Shaolin Monastery. The exact translation of Wing-Chun is "spring blossom

According to the legend, the system was developed by a nun who escaped from this Shaolin Monastery. All this happened after the authorities of the day decided to demolish the monastery and kill all inhabitants. Only a few monks and a nun, Ng Mui survived.

When the escaped nun Ng Mui was wandering about the country she observed a fight between a snake and crane. Looking at the battle made her think. She combined her knowledge of the tradition Shaolin Kung-Fu with the effective movements of the animals.

Later Ng Mui met a young lady called Yim Wing Chun. Yim Wing Chun was forced to marry the local gangleader. She agreed to marry him, on one condition: the gangleader had to defeat her in a fight. After intensive training by Ng Mui, Yim Wing Chun fought against the gangleader, and managed to defeat him.

I read some where that many years ago, there was a rivalry between practitioners of Choy Li Fut and Wing Chun. ... Is that true? ...

Actually, it was Yim who observed the snake and crane fight. But her ideas were further refined by Ng Mui


Complete fiction.


Plenty in Hong Kong. These two systems were known for the countless violent events. not even the Hung Gar (which was pretty much loaded with bad guys) had that much problem

Violent events? ... Wow! ... Who was winning the majority of fights? ... Was there ever fights between the Hung Gar boys and anyone else?

Depends on the source. CLF people said they won more, WC people said they won more.

Quite alot. You have to remember that 20-30 years ago, the CMA community in HK was insperable from triad societies. The line between the two is actually quite blurred. Hung Gar among them. Gang warfare and martial arts school clashes was a horrible mix. Although the name Wing Chun and Choi Lay Fut have always been the worse because these seem to be the two styles that attracts the most Gang members to join. My guess is because other styles takes more time and patiance to learn and use. Traits not common among gang members

The majority of masters were not gang member. But their students often were. And even those that are not were dragged into this war because they have to defend their school when one of their own gets hurt by a student from rival school who just happens to be in a rival gang

Used to hear those stories of CLF players vs. WC players.

Q: Most of the fights were open hands, not were weapons-driven.
Any confirmation on that pov?

yes most were hand to hand fights(even with a ref), though there was one battle incident between Hung Gar group(Lam Jo's) vs. a Choy Li Fut group during a festival where weapons were involved. Alot of these fights take place on the rooftops.

Q: Can you tell me more about this incident?

Its on this site here: http://www.hungkuen.net/article-bigfight.htm

Thks!

There is another theory concerning the origin of Wing Chun/Ving Tsun--i.e., the suggestion that it is derived from 19th century British bare-knuckle pugilism.

This idea has been tossed around for the past 15 or 20 years. To the best of my knowledge, it was first suggested by Wing Chun instructor Karl Godwin, in his brilliant article, "In Search of Wing Chun's Roots--Did it Evolve from Western Boxing or the Shaolin Temple?", which appeared in the June 1986 issue of Black Belt magazine.

Godwin noted the following:

1. There is no actual record of the Buddhist nun Ng Mui even existing. Godwin said that Master Leung Ting stated that he "doubted the historical events and the existence of Wing Chun characters before Leung Jan."

2. Every Wing Chun master has a different location regarding the various Wing Chun temples.

3. Wing Chun masters are totally inconsistent regarding the art's age, putting it at anywhere between 150-300 years old.

4. Wing Chun lacks the ritual of other Chinese styles. There are no salutations at the beginning of its forms.

5. Wing Chun is technically quite different from other Chinese styles.

6. "The pacifist-type tradition found in most kung fu systems is practically nonexistent in Wing Chun".

7. Wing Chun takes much less time to become proficient in, when compared with other Chinese methods.

8. No weapons are native to the Wing Chun system. The bart cham dao and long pole were "introduced from another style".


The theory is that local southern Chinese fighters were influenced by visiting British sailors.

Godwin went into particulars in his article:

1. Leung Ting stated that Wing Chun was developed in coastal southeast China, which also happens to be where English sailors introduced Western boxing.

2. Western boxing was, in fact, introduced in China in the 19th century, as noted by Draeger and Smith in their classic text, Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts.

3. "Wing Chun is more similar to boxing than any other Chinese martial art. Pictures of the great early European fighters... show them in stances strikingly similar to those found in Wing Chun. The techniques of Wing Chun and boxing also seem to be related. Both arts use straight punches, and both use shuffling steps to advance. The defensive hand techniques of both arts also have a similar structure. The Wing Chun kao sao is found in boxing as the "brush away". Pak sao is known in boxing as "cuffing", and bong sao is found in old boxing as the "cross brush away".

4. "The Wing Chun principle of sil lin die dar (simultaneous attack and defense) is a common characteristic of boxing". {And of fencing, for that matter}

5. The fact that Wing Chun was developed to fight against taller people suggests, obviously, that the locals were fighting against taller peopler--visiting European sailors, perhaps?

And so, Godwin made a good case for British pugilism being the influence for the creation of Wing Chun.


In addition, it's worth noting that 19th century prizefighters typically punched with the "vertical fist", striking with the bottom three knuckles, just as in Wing Chun. This punching method was detailed by Jack Dempsey in his Championship Fighting book. Although Dempsey was from the Glove Era, at least one of his trainers had also worked with some of the last of the great bare-knuckle boxers, like Peter Jackson. Dempsey specifically mentioned this.

On the other hand, WC and British BK pugilism differ in that their is grappling in the latter (standing throws were allowed in London Prize Ring rules matches). One has to wonder if Wing Chun ever had a grappling component.

Maybe the British Sailors witnessed the Wing Chun and took it back with them to develop their boxing. Or maybe the Chinese immigrants brought it with them to Britain and started Western Boxing

There are only so many ways to punch and kick. Many arts....especially the effective ones will have similarities. That doesnt' prove one is developed from the other.

In theory Wing Chun and Western Boxing have similarities. In application and training it's completely different.

The British pugilism predates the time when their sailors went to China.

Indeed, but it's worthwhile evidence nonetheless.



I want to repeat that I'm specifically talking about British bare-knuckle pugilsim, NOT modern boxing.

....

That's the "traditional" story, but that doesn't make it FACT.

Why?

Pragmatic martial peoples (including the Chinese) have adopted the weapons and methods of other cultures.



Kung-fu as a whole, but not Wing Chun.

That's your opinion.




Are you claiming that the existence of Ng Mui has been verified? By all means, post some links to back that claim.



Again, I'm not talking about all kung-fu systems collectively--I'm talking just about Wing Chun.

Sounds plausible.

Godwin didn't conduct sufficient research to support his baseless claims.

Wing Chun is a variation of Southern Shaolin. It is not as popular, in China, as Wong Fei Hung's Southern Shaolin style because it had been viewed as martial arts for female (invented by budhist Nun Ng Mui)
---it was designed to fight against taller people; women were much shorter then men

But, over time, people have adapted WC as an effective fighting technique in closed quarters---in small alley/room, etc. WC is popular in HK and Macao

the suggestion that the Brit sailors introduce WC is just non sense. there're no historical records, anywhere, to support that claim. kung-fu pre-dated the Brit bare-knucke pugilists by thousands of years. WC is a variation of Southern Shaolin kung-fu
actually there is. If only Godwin would go to HK (and Fujien and Guandong provinces). there's lot of historical accounts of her, w pictures. just because there're no historical records in the US (where Godwin lives) doen't mean that there're no historical record in China.

and there is also plenty of historical records that kung-fu pre-dated Brit pugilists by thousands of years.

Adoo,

Why did you erase your original post, and then re-post it?

Just Curious,

David

Sure we are all talking opinions here. Sad fact is many styles of kung fu that claim their origins from some hermit monk, general, or even emperors are just mostly legends. Wing Chun is no different.

The geneology of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun is mostly from the most popular Wing Chun style of the Yip Man/HK lineage. There are other Wing Chun branches such as Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen and Jee Shim Weng Chun Kuen that has completely different lineages and founders.


[
If one of Godwin's "proofs" that Wing Chun came from British soldiers is because the Wing Chun geneology cannot be traced to a historical "founder" then :

Can you tell me who is the founder of British Pugilism or British Bare-Knuckle pugilsm ?




I have not seen any films of British bare-knuckle pugilsim, but I have seen films of turn of the century gloved boxing matches (Joe Louis...etc), I will assume the bare-knuckle fighters would have fought in a similar way.

It looks nothing like Wing Chun.

Can you describe the training methods of British bare-knuckle fighters ? Do they train in the same way as their "students" the Wing Chun fighters ?

Sure Wing Chun has numerous standing throws......have you ever practiced Wing Chun ?




Hey I think more traditional Chinese martial arts styles should train more like Western Boxers with the alive training, heavy sparring and pad work.....But to say Wing Chun came from British fighters from the 19th century is too much of a stretch !

Precisely.

As to who founded British pugilism, I cannot say.

However, the first recognized heavyweight champion was James Figg, who was also a noted teacher of "defence". Figg was certainly an instrumental figure in the introduction of British pugilism. He was not only a champion in boxing, but also in backsword/singlestick competition. Figg was champion from 1719 to 1734. His record in combined sword and bareknuckle prizefights was 270 and 1.

Figg's sparring partner, Captain John Godfrey, wrote a book on fencing and boxing in the British manner, in 1747.




First off, Joe Louis was not a "turn of the century" boxer--he fought in the 1930s and the 1940s.

Secondly, there are no films of bare knuckle matches. The last match under London Prize Ring rules was that between John Sullivan and Jake Kilrain, in 1889.

I already outlined the British "vertical fist" punch, which seems very Wing Chun-like.

Godwin noted similarities in terms of guard position and parrying.




No, I have not.

I'm curious to know more about these throws.



I honestly don't see what's so far fetched about it.

Oh my bad on Joe Louis, I was thinking of Jack Johnson....there was a great PBS documentary on him few months ago. He fought in the late 1800's into the early 1900's. Does he count ?

His style looks nothing like Wing Chun.

By the way John Sullivan towards the end of his career also fought in the ring under gloved Queensberry rules but expressly avoided black challengers.


The Vertical fist, the parrying, the 3 main hands of Wing Chun, Tan, Bong, Fook......appears in almost every southern style Chinese Martial art......Southern Mantis, Dragon, White Crane, Hung Kuen....etc.

Did the British invent these styles too ?

Most Wing Chun throws would be of the sweep variety....kinda Judo Like. Whenever you see those low kick movements in Wing Chun forms they can be low kicks or sweeps. This is especially clear in the Wooden Dummy form.

Definitely.

I don't even know how much of Johnson is on film, aside from his 1915 loss to Jess Willard.

Having nothing to comment on, I must concede the point to you at least until I see the fight(s) for myself.



I assume these styles are all older than Wing Chun?



Most interesting.

Do Wing Chun exponents work the throws against each other (i.e., engage in randori)?

You can order the doc on Jack Johnson from Amazon :

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006FO8I...&v=glance&n=130

The director is the famous Ken Burns. You seem like a history buff...I would highly recommend it. There was a ton of fight footage on the documentary......

Are the styles older than Wing Chun ? Is a style only as old as it can be traced by documented historical proof witten on scrolls ? I feel the techniques of Wing Chun existed in other styles before the name "Wing Chun" was popularized.

Just like "modern" systems/styles/training like JKD and MMA uses techniques that may be 100's of years old.....

Wing Chun's randori is their famous "sticky hands" practice....during these sessions you definitely can and will be thrown.

Wing Chun based MMA school wins British amateur NHB/MMA tournament :

Ying Hung Wing Chun Kuen, Alan Orr Sifu

Neil Broadbent 2005 Combat Sports Open National
NHB Lightweight Champion

AARON BAUM 2005 Combat Sports Open National
NHB Middleweight Runner-Up

http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/nhb/teamironorr.html

That's great (seriously).

But, I still must question as to whether or not the school in question is really "Wing Chun based".

They teach WC. They teach various Filipino styles, including a composite system created by Mark V. Wiley, and Kalis Illustrisimo (the formidable method of the late GM Antonio Illustrisimo). They teach a version of catch wrestling (Alan lists having studied under both controversial CACC rivals Matt Furey & Tony Cecchine). And they teach MMA as per the Shark Tank school.

I suspect that the catch wrestling and the ST-derived MMA training have more to do with the school's success than WC or FMA.

Just a wild guess.

Why go out of your way to make wild guesses ?

The name of the school is "Ying Hung Wing Chun Kuen." Alan ORR the sifu has been training in WC for 17 years......much longer than any of the other arts he teaches.

If you have time, you can read Sifu Orr giving credit to his student's success based on the WC structure. His students won by submissions as well as striking.

Anyway, you are entitled to your opinion that WC is useless, and it's prob invented by the British anyway.

Good luck to you in your training.

I think that Ta-ts'in Centurion makes an interesting comparison between WC and British bare knuckle fighting. In my experience there are some remarkable similarities.

However I do not feel that WC 'originated' in the west.

The WC that I learned came from Fatsan and Guangzhou generally and has much in common with other styles of CMA.

Also WC as it was taught to me was more of a stand up grappling art, with the sticky hands used to trap, lock and break while the legs uprooted, locked or broke. In training a sparring bout would finish when someone's structure was broken and they were not only struck but also locked or dropped (preferably both)

Based on the most current research Wing Chun is an offshoot of Yong Chun White Crane. (yes, wing chun and young chun are two way to romanize the same place in Fukien). The system started in Fukien province.