Guan Gong (Guan Yu) is said to have mastered it. How many of you know of its existence. It originated in Shoalin as a Masters defence used later to develop armored combat techniques by generals.

I know of it but has with so many origins of Chinese martial arts, ancestry skills etc I doubt it originated from Guan Yu.

The most famous master of Baji Quan must be Li Shuwen ShenQiang 神枪 in the very late Qing Dynasty. supposedly undefeated till his old age and was famous was taking down opponents on the first blow. He was rumoured to have died of poisoning by his students.

Baji Quan training is very tough but properly taught it is very effective and deadly.

Plus, I doubt it originated in Shaolin...that's a good sales gimmick, to claim decendancy from Shaolin, because that's the style with most publicity.
Also it's a good gimmick to claim a famous warrior used it.
But I don't think there are records of Guan Gong ever using this style. I would take these stories with a grain of salt

Baji is a good external system.

Seen it demo by a Sifu Adam Hsu in S/F Bay Area.

Impossible. Bajiquan at best has around 200 years of history. Guan Yu being from the 3 kingdoms period predates its origin by more than 1500 years.

Baji's origin should be Cangzhou of the Hebei province. Since Cangzhou was an area where most Shaolin influenced arts appeared, it is not surprising that it was influenced by other Shaolin related arts. However, if one looks at the mainstream Shaolin styles, Baji is simply way too different to say it came out of Shaolin proper.


However, you can make a case that Baji did have armour in mind during the later stage of its development. During the Qing dynasty, because of Huo's victory over the imperial guard instructor at the time (and thereby taking his job), it was made into compulsory program of the imperial guards for the emperor. If you analyse Baji techniqes, you will find that it fits quite well with attacking the weak areas of armour designs. Joints, armpits among others are common targets for Baji. But other techniques such as the squating punch and Chauyangzhang are obviously civilian origin considering all Qing era armour at those areas covered. Military armour since the 3 kingdoms era have been using folded steel for material. No matter how powerful you train yourself to be, steel lamellar is still something you won't strike through.

Two things that complicates the sitaution. (1) Qing armour in the later years no longer have lamellas which renders pretty much all styles effective against it. (2) No historical documents ever confirmed such developement of Baji. So rather than 'evidence' by the techniques involved, these are more like educated guess of historical events. And we all know how wrong we can be when guessing things. I mean we once though that the Pyramids were made by slaves getting whipped during their job

i don't think there were many MARTIAL ARTS recorded before MING dynasty. most of our MARTIAL ARTS today are invented from MING and QING dynasties including:
Taichi
Baji
Tanglang
Pigua
Shaoling
Wudang
Emei

and many others

Indeed. There were some, but not a great deal. Rough sketches of martial arts documentation could be traced as far back as the Song dynasty. Any further back and it would only be stuff like "he was a good swordsman" or nothing more specific than "Hand to hand combat was needed to be study" type thing.

Although evidence are not great, Taizuquan was supposedly the style that was developed by the 1st Song emperor. The Wumu-weishu by Yue Fei, the Song jiang who fought the jin, was claimed (although I don't buy a word of it) to be the key manual which Hsing I was developed from. The only thing I take as reliable was that the 108 shao was invented by Yue Fei because this was well documented.

But certainly, 3 kingdom was not a time where any martial arts have been documented. Not even Guan Yu's weapon (from the novel) being the Gwandao (aka Yanyuedao) was historical fact. Guan Yu used a spear and the gwandao itself was a Song dynasty invention.

your right, but i'm just not sure if TaiZuQuan and WuMuYiShu were really invented by ZhaoKuangYIng and YueFei, maybe people just used their names?

The story of Taizuquan is something I never really took as historical fact. Only as historical posibility. I have went through a number of Song history texts but none of which gave any good details of the 'system' used at the time. Nor could I find any explaination of techniques to cross reference with the principles of Taizuquan.

The Wumuyishu on the other hand was the art of war written by Yue Fei. However, it have been long since it was lost so there basically is nothing which we can use from it to confirm or deny anything.

I normally make the deduction that Hsing I was not a Yue Fei creation because of two reasons (1) the principles involved was completely different from those of Yingzhouquan. The system which I accept as being a creation of Yue Fei due to other sources. A rule of thumb is that people generally don't create two seperate styles because the human mind doesn't work that way. (2) Hsing I is simply not a battlefield system. Most of the areas which it attacks would have been targeted at areas protected by armour of the time. Some techniques would even be impossible because the soldiers themselves wore armour and their obstruction of movement would surely have been a factor which Yue Fei would have taken into account.

you're right, mojority of our stuff today are from qin and ming dynasties

Btw, it should be the eight trigrams. I think the original poster confused great ultimate (tai ji) with eight trigrams (ba gua;) the two are often associated together.

No, Baji quan is its own gongfu. Outwardly it is quite different from either Taijiquan or BaguaZhang (You never refer to it as Quan)

The Presidential bodyguards of the ROC are purported to be Bajiquan trained.

If you do a search on the Internet you should be able to get more information on it.

actaully, you can. Quan is just a generic term. Like "Do" for japanese. To end something with Quan only means it is a system of martial arts. Not nessessarily that it means it is a 'fist' style.

I am aware of the meaning of Quan. I am referring to the fact that I have only seen the usage of Baguazhang. Do you have examples, where they called it Baguaquan? Just curious.

It is actually a matter of individual preference. There are plenty of books which uses the Quan and Zhang interchangably.

There is a BG book with the title ["The Genuine Transmission of Ba Gua Quan by Sun Xi Kun"]

Src: http://plumflower.com/frames.htm

What's interesting is that this Ba Gua manual by written by Sun Xi Kun (1883-1952)--fourth generation Ba Gua lineage holder and student of Cheng You Long, son and student of one of founder Tung Hai-Chuan's most famous students Cheng Ting Hua (CTH).

Baji Quan originated in Cangzhou, Hebei Province. It did not come from Shaolin. I practice Baji Quan. It is an internal style which focuses on Short power (Duan Jing). It is a very lethal weapon. The greatest practitioner in modern history was Li Shuwen, a.k.a. God of Spear Li. His skill was unmatched. We have a saying, "When you add Pigua to Baji, Gods and Demons will be terrified, when you add Baji to Pigua, heroes will sigh as they are no match for it."

¨The eight-diagram palm is based on the old Chinese philosophy of eight combinations of three whole and broken lines used in divination. While practicing, the practitioner moves according to the eight diagrams.
There are different stories about the origin of Ba Gua. Some say it originated among the anti-Qing Dynasty cliques while others believe that it was created by the two Taoist priests of Bi Yun and Jing Yun on Mount Emei in Sichuan Province during the late Ming Dynasty and early Qing Dynasty and it has been passed down to its ninth generation of practitioners.
According to legend, the founder was Dong Haichuan, born in Wen'an county of Hebei province (4 hours from Beijing) sometime in the 1820s. Dong was a good fighter who knew the art of Er'Langquan (Er'Lang -- a hero in Chinese Daoist legends). He traveled through China to meet masters of martial arts living in out-of-the-way places. When he reached Jiuhua mountain in Anhui province, he lost his way in a forest. There he encountered a young Daoist who was circling pine trees. Dong Haichuan understood that the young monk was training in some form of martial art, but couldn't understand the strangeness of his training method, and began to laugh. Insulted, the Daoist challenged Dong to match forces. Dong Haichuan agreed and the two proceeded to do battle in a nearby glade. Dong launched fierce strikes, using both fists and feet, but he was not able to reach the young Daoist, who always slipped behind Dong's back and overturned him. After the third fall, Dong admitted defeat, knelt down and asked to be accepted as a student. Once again he heard laughing, this time from behind, and when he turned, an old Daoist stepped into the glade. This old Daoist was Bi Chengxia, teacher of the young monk who had just defeated Dong while Bi Chenxia looked on. Bi accepted Dong as his student, and during a period of four years taught him the art of rotating palms while walking in a circle.
Later Dong Haichuan moved to Beijing and was hired as a servant to Prince Su. Su was a great lover of martial arts, and masters visited him frequently. On one occasion, Su asked a master to demonstrate his art before a large crowd. It happened that a servant with tea was unable to make his way through the crowd to serve the Prince. To help the man, Dong Haichuan took his tea tray and ran to the prince on a wall, turning and twisting over the heads of the spectators. The Prince was an observant man and immediately asked if Dong had studied some martial art. It was impossible to keep the secret any longer, and Dong told his story. From that time forward he taught Ba Gua in Beijing. Later this art spreaded through all China. ¨

it started as something else, not as a marital art. the whole idea of bagua is not the fighting but the unnecessarity of fights. the master-degree of it is when the situations are resolved without need of a conflict, no matter how much the oposition is willing it. the balance that a true master can achieve is not only phisical but emotional and spiritual as well and the feeling of it is so powrefull that it could be projeckted on to the others , balancing out their need for conflict and tunning them into a resolution before the fight even begins. that is what i have heard anyway. the greatest warrior is the one who never has to fight. i guess that is why most of them were monks and humble nice people. or i am just blathering?

I would contest this statement. The ideal of "not fighting" is something that everyone claims. But martial arts once boiled down are not spiritual exercises. They were born of a need to defend oneself and kill one's enemy effectively, so that despite all pretensions of certain masters to "not fighting", every good martial art will possess this capability, even if the practitioner himself does not wish to do it. Of course that is a perfect solution, but it's not always achievable and it is in this case that people fall on martial arts. Of course, extensive practice and a reputation may keep some people from picking fights with you, but just as surely it will attract challenges.

Most of the greatest warriors were not monks; nor were they necessarily "humble nice people". Even today a lot of the good teachers display a good amount of arrogance and are not so nice, and I'm sure in the past they would have even more reason to be rough and tumble if they were from the army and perhaps not so humble if they were aristocrats.

sure. what i said does not go against any of that. except may be the ¨humble nice people¨but that is my wish for all warriors to be like
the ¨idea of not fighting¨comes at the end of the martial art path, not in the beggining. one has to go through the best training and searching, to has the right state of mind and body condition, to see and do lots of fights, until get to the point of view that the enemy is ¨within¨ and that anyone who chalenges him has been provoked by his own need of fight and instability. the more you ¨root¨yourself finding you center the more silent you go inside and the pleasure of ¨measuring sword¨disappears, and so it disappears in others towards you. it could not be forced or faked. it is only natural.