By scale & lamellar do you mean iron vests of plates and laquered leather vests of plates?
They existed contemporary. Iron never replaced leather fully but the stlye of armour got more complex and the use of iron became more common.
It is unlikely there will be good statistical breakdowns of each type.
The main change is that from early West Han to East Han the vests went from a few long thin vertical plates in the 'scale' vest and into much more fine & smaller plates in the style of a true 'scale' vest.
The book you have just forked out on will explain this pretty well, with pictures of the suits that have been dug up (and the sites identified), the vests also shown on tomb gaurdians and some reconstructions.
It won't be money spent in vain in that respect!

Scale armour is basically pieces of armour stitched to a backing material(leather cloth etc) Lamellar on the other hand, is laced together with no backing material.

I've seen several variations of this armour... could they be for different troop types?

Thanks.

So, the difference between lamellar and scale armor was that lamellar had larger plates than scale, and that scale armors were pieces of plates stitched to a backing material and Lamellar on the other hand is laced together without backing material?

BTW, Kenneth, would you have have a look on my draft copy if I ever write a book in english?

If you want to i wouldn't mind helping you whit it if you get that far thirdgumi. I have time to spare for the moment anyway.

Thanks Alexander39, I will keep that in mind.

Not really. The main difference between lamella and scale is that scale are often more flexible as their lower half is not secured. Both scale and lamellas are known to use backing materials.

when I hear of a lamellar-ish armor with backing material, it's usually called brigandine. I thought of lamellar as no backing material, plates stitched to each other, scale have plates stitched to backing (lower half not secured)

Brigandine just means the lamellas are laced on the inside.

A more general understanding might be :-

The term Brigandine refers to armour with metal plates rivited or stiched within a garment that is both lined and faced with fabric or leater. The key difference between this and lamella/scale is that the metal plates are not visible. The plates are also protected from the elements.

Scale refers to armour of small individual plates that are stiched/laced/rivited to a fabric or leather base on one edge of the plate only. Other layers of plates overlap the fastenings protecting them from damage (giving the appearance of fish scales). This was a comparativly early style of armour (and quite rare in China). The main problem is that a spearpoint, sword etc can get under a scale and then can cut through the fastening and base cgarment to reach the wearer.

Lamellla armour is when the individual plates have holes punched in the sides and bottom to alllow for them to be fastened together (as well as onto the base garment, though some armours only attach to themselves but these are inherently less comfortable to wear). This significantly reduces (but doesn't eliminate) the chances of a weapon slipping between plates. Interestingly these don't seem to be a development of scale armour but a separate technology initially developed by leather workers (boiled and lacquered leather is stronger than bronze or copper plates, though heavier). There is also a long history of armours made from plates of lacquered wood (particuarly in Japan and amongst native North Americans). The term splint armour is sometimes used when individual plates are long and thin (eg many arm and leg defences)

Chain or mail is made from interlocking metal rings (almost always iron rings rivetted from thick wire). The inherent flexability makes it very effective against cuts and a spear/sword/arrow can only penetrate by busting apart individual rings. This led directly to the development of 'bodkin' arrows and square section spearheads to specifically burst armour.

Other effective armours were made of multiple layers of fabric glued together (eg Greek hoplites linen armours, Song paper armours, medieval European and Islamic "padded" armoures, even modern kevlar vests). These were strong and cheap, but decay over time (the glues available give up over time with exposure to moiture and heat changes). The Romans made significant use of specialised armours made of complete bands of armour riveted and hinged together, A very advanced form of lamella but it was expensive and required specialist armorers and workshops equipped with exotic jigs and tools to make.

All the above required padding under them to distribute energy adsorbed from blows. It was also common (ususal even) to wear combinations of different styles and types of armour. eg 13th c European knights with fitted padded armour, then boiled leather breastplate, then full coat of mail, then small metal plates at elbow, knee etc.

hope that helps...

rgds.
Tom..

"Weapons in ancient China" says that Mingguangkia was the most important armour during the Tang, yet I was always under the impression that the nomad style long lamellar coat replaced earlier types...

Rereading through this thread, I just noticed that I rarely reply to posts...I'll have to change my ways.

What is tuiqun?

armours protecting the thighs. Often around knee length but have been known to be ankle length for some

That's in pounds, right? Some catapults fling stones that weigh about 26 kg, so...

We are referring to the weight of armour worn by infantry.

Cheers

I know, but if catapults fling stones that have a weight equivalent of armor worn by infantry, then...

The armour worn by the Song cavalrymen, what was that called?

Cheers

Does anyone know how extensively mail was used during the Ming? I've heard that during the height of the Ming, cavalry wore mail in conjunction with a scale or lamellar vest. Could anyone verify this?

Would that be just a type of leg armour a full suit covering body and knee's?Click to view attachment Such as this picture or at least similar to it?

Cheers

This is the general anatomy of armours. There are more specific names for more specific areas but you don't really need know them. These names also changes from age to age.

Great info. Thanks. In regards to the crossbowmen above, is he wearing buren jia or is it called something else?

Cheers

Chris

Wujiang,
Can I know which era do your armor posted come from above?

I have a question about leather armor;are they come in a single layer or multi layer??

Hmm...does all armor have belt straps?

I am not sure. If they were a armour with a different name, no reliable source ever mentioned them. But I would suspect that it would have been called burenjia. Just different specifications from those of spearmen and other units.


Song dynasty

Muilti. Documents about this can be found as far back as the Zhou dynasty.


What do you mean 'belt straps' ? If you are talking about just the belt, then yes. Belts serves more than just to carry weapons. It was used to take weight off the shoulders. Although there were other mechanisms on Chinese armour for this purpose.

Wujiang, what do you mean by mechanisms? Could you talk about them?

Is one of them those cords I see in Tang armor?

Yep.
Unfortunately, the variaty of designs, uses and methods are too vast for me to explain details here on a message box.

Was this armour used by cavalry or by infantry. I've read in an osprey book stating it was used by cavalry, yet I've seen here on CHF it was used by infantry. To me it looks like it was used by infantry.

Cheers

Most likely cavalary. If it is to scale, then the tuiqun would be too short for infantry armour. But then again, it is uncertain whether it is to scale.....

Maybe it could have been used by both. I've seen depictions of song cavalry armour covering the entire leg, from hip to ankle. Would that have been an addition to the upper body armour adding better protection to the rider. See image.

Click to view attachmentClick to view attachment

I have taken that posibility into account. However, it was written specifically in the Wujing-jongyao that the tuiqun of cavalry armour was short. Since that particular picture came from the the Wujing jongyao, then I guess it would have been consistant with the author's ideas.

Other generals at the time may have prefered longer tuiqun for their men while this particular general did not. After all, one cannot say that the wujing jongyao was the whole truth of the Song military.

I believe that Wu Jing Zong Yao was supposed to be the standard military manual of Song.

But hardly definitive. Remember there were quite a number of military texts at the time and people pick and choose what they want to follow. Just because it was an 'important' read does not mean everyone must follow it to the letter. If there isn't anything written down, then Generals often employ their own methods and equipment when they are assigned to commanding positions. If a general doesn't like the idea of short tuiquns on his cavalry, he simply orders the manufacturers of the area to make longer ones. There is no law that states everyone must follow the Wujing Zhongyao.

Do we have translated copy of Wujing Zhongyao?

Heavy Song infantry were also equipped with the Buren (foot-soldier) armour illustrated in the Wujing Zongyao - a suit of iron lamellar that protected everything except the lower arms and lower legs, and also had an iron lamellar helmet. According to a court regulation of 1134, it was made up of 1825 iron scales and weighed up to 29kg. Later (from 1168), there were 32-35kg versions for spearmen, 28-33kg versions for archers, and 22-27kg versions for crossbowmen.


Does Buren actually mean foot-soldier? Also, I've read where the number of iron scales could be up to 3782? Does this sound correct?

Cheers

According to Yang Hong's "weapons in ancient China", a spearmans armour with helmet and shoulder guards included would have over 3000 scales.

Thanks Conan.

Buren Jia. I realize jia is armour but does anyone know what Buren means?

It could mean "foot man" (bu is a pace, ren is a man). E.g. bubing - infantry man/foot soldier. So, burenjia could be an "armour for footman"

Best regards,

Alexey.



In Qing period the most part of soldiers was definetily armoured as you can see e.g. on the picture of Blue Banner Parade on the site of Thomas Chen. Records of European travellers show us that in XVII-XVIII and even in the first half of XIX centuries infantry had enough armour but in Xiangfeng period (1850-1860) and later they got rid of the most part of their armour as it was useless against modern firearms of Western countries.

Best regards,

Alexey.

[quote name='Altaica Militarica' date='Nov 23 2005, 03:55 AM' post='4772095']
It could mean "foot man" (bu is a pace, ren is a man). E.g. bubing - infantry man/foot soldier. So, burenjia could be an "armour for footman"

Best regards,

Alexey.




Thanks Alexey.

Chris