I was reading in one thread about Lin Chong (from the Outlaws/Water Margin fame) was the best in using his (snake head) spear from the horseback and on the ground. ... I also heard Yueh Fei was also the best spear player of his time. ... These are the best of the best that I know of ...
I wonder who else should be in the list.
Zhao Yun, Zhang Fei and Jiang Wei (In San Guo Yan Yi)
the Yang Clan
The Huyan Clan
the Sha Clan
Lin Chong
Hua Mulan
Mu Guiying
FaMulan,
I borrowed the names from Yang Zongbao in the "Chinese spear" topic. ... The bottom line is who will win and why? ...
Full Version: Who is the best spear fighter in Chinese History?
China History Forum, Chinese History Forum > Chinese History Topics > Chinese Art of War > Chinese Martial Arts
QUOTE(BlueDragonMagik @ Aug 17 2005, 02:53 AM)
I was reading in one thread about Lin Chong (from the Outlaws/Water Margin fame) was the best in using his (snake head) spear from the horseback and on the ground. ... I also heard Yueh Fei was also the best spear player of his time. ... These are the best of the best that I know of ...
I wonder who else should be in the list.
Zhao Yun, Zhang Fei and Jiang Wei (In San Guo Yan Yi)
the Yang Clan
The Huyan Clan
the Sha Clan
Lin Chong
Hua Mulan
Mu Guiying
FaMulan,
I borrowed the names from Yang Zongbao in the "Chinese spear" topic. ... The bottom line is who will win and why? ...
I wonder who else should be in the list.
Zhao Yun, Zhang Fei and Jiang Wei (In San Guo Yan Yi)
the Yang Clan
The Huyan Clan
the Sha Clan
Lin Chong
Hua Mulan
Mu Guiying
FaMulan,
I borrowed the names from Yang Zongbao in the "Chinese spear" topic. ... The bottom line is who will win and why? ...
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I thought the HuYan clan were more known for their twin metal whips?
I just thought of something. ... What is the "trademark move" of each spear master? ... I read in another thread .. .Lin Chong best move is the "Horse Returning Spear Attack". ... How about the other spear masters .. What was their move?
I really don't know if Zhao Yun, Zhang Fei or Jiang Wei should count.
Nor Lin Chong.
Unless it's been expressively written in an actual history that they were a good spear fighter.
Nor Lin Chong.
Unless it's been expressively written in an actual history that they were a good spear fighter.
QUOTE(Yang Zongbao @ Aug 18 2005, 04:22 AM)
I really don't know if Zhao Yun, Zhang Fei or Jiang Wei should count.
Nor Lin Chong.
Unless it's been expressively written in an actual history that they were a good spear fighter.
Nor Lin Chong.
Unless it's been expressively written in an actual history that they were a good spear fighter.
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Problem w/ that qstn that BDM stated is that most battles that they fought are rarely ["one on one"] duel.
In most battles, it could be ["five on one"].
From this article, I think "Yue Fei" was a pretty creative person. ... Does not tell whether he was a good spear master. ...
The Chinese Spear: “King of the Long Weapons”
By Instructor Candidate Danny Hall
The spear or Qiang in Chinese evolved very early in Chinese history. Originally tapering down the end of a bamboo stick or rod made the spear. Eventually later adding a tapered metal head that was sharp on both edges modified it. Throughout the years there has been many versions of the spear. The design of the spear normally depended on the dynasty it was in. It was said that in the Southern Song Dynasty (1127-1280 A.D.) that General Yue Fei added a hook, which was sharp on both edges to the metal end of the spear. This gave him an advantage because he could also cut of the legs of horses. Generals even added the metal taper on both ends to increase the weapons killing potential. The double spear was called Shuang Tou Qiang. Many Generals preferred the use of the spear because its techniques and applications were superior to those of other weapons. Because the spear was normally light it could be wielded around with quickness and agility. The spears movements are normally compared to a swimming dragon. The spear was primarily used for stabbing although it could be used for sweeps, slashes and blocking. Blocking is usually done with the shaft part of the spear. Since the spear was so versatile it was given the title “King of the Long Weapons”.
The one major disadvantage of the spear was that is it couldn’t block heavy weapons such as a long handled saber (Guan Do). The Shaolin spear in which most of you are familiar is made up of a white wax wood. That only grows in Northern China. This wood is used because of the flexibility and spring-like quality. The spears butt or end is thick but tapers down in thickness, as it gets closer to the tip. The tip of the spear is made of steel and is shaped like an arrowhead with two edges.
One of the most noticeable characteristics is the red tassel that was bound at the spearhead base. These can also be referred to as the horsetail tassels because they were made of horsehair. The tassel served a couple purposes to the Generals when they were on the battlefield. First off the tassel was used to distract the opponents attention away from the spearhead. Second, and more importantly the tassels stopped the flow of blood from the blade onto the shaft of the spear. This was very crucial because the spear could become very slippery to hold and also if the blood would get onto the shaft and began to dry the stickiness could affect the sliding techniques of the spear. For those of you that have had the opportunity to work with the spear you could imagine how difficult it would be to thrust the spear out to strike if it was sticky. The reason I chose the spear to write about is because it is my favorite weapon. When most people see a spear they think of a javelin type weapon with some red tassel on it. Hopefully this will help you as a practitioner or non practitioner understand the spear more thoroughly. The characteristic that I like the most about the spear is because it can be used for close and long-range techniques. It is said that it takes a 1000 days to master the spear. This means training everyday continuously for three years before you have mastered the techniques. Not just when you feel like it for three years. If you have not worked with the spear stay diligent with your training and your time will come.
Historical note on the Yue Fei
The Chinese Spear: “King of the Long Weapons”
By Instructor Candidate Danny Hall
The spear or Qiang in Chinese evolved very early in Chinese history. Originally tapering down the end of a bamboo stick or rod made the spear. Eventually later adding a tapered metal head that was sharp on both edges modified it. Throughout the years there has been many versions of the spear. The design of the spear normally depended on the dynasty it was in. It was said that in the Southern Song Dynasty (1127-1280 A.D.) that General Yue Fei added a hook, which was sharp on both edges to the metal end of the spear. This gave him an advantage because he could also cut of the legs of horses. Generals even added the metal taper on both ends to increase the weapons killing potential. The double spear was called Shuang Tou Qiang. Many Generals preferred the use of the spear because its techniques and applications were superior to those of other weapons. Because the spear was normally light it could be wielded around with quickness and agility. The spears movements are normally compared to a swimming dragon. The spear was primarily used for stabbing although it could be used for sweeps, slashes and blocking. Blocking is usually done with the shaft part of the spear. Since the spear was so versatile it was given the title “King of the Long Weapons”.
The one major disadvantage of the spear was that is it couldn’t block heavy weapons such as a long handled saber (Guan Do). The Shaolin spear in which most of you are familiar is made up of a white wax wood. That only grows in Northern China. This wood is used because of the flexibility and spring-like quality. The spears butt or end is thick but tapers down in thickness, as it gets closer to the tip. The tip of the spear is made of steel and is shaped like an arrowhead with two edges.
One of the most noticeable characteristics is the red tassel that was bound at the spearhead base. These can also be referred to as the horsetail tassels because they were made of horsehair. The tassel served a couple purposes to the Generals when they were on the battlefield. First off the tassel was used to distract the opponents attention away from the spearhead. Second, and more importantly the tassels stopped the flow of blood from the blade onto the shaft of the spear. This was very crucial because the spear could become very slippery to hold and also if the blood would get onto the shaft and began to dry the stickiness could affect the sliding techniques of the spear. For those of you that have had the opportunity to work with the spear you could imagine how difficult it would be to thrust the spear out to strike if it was sticky. The reason I chose the spear to write about is because it is my favorite weapon. When most people see a spear they think of a javelin type weapon with some red tassel on it. Hopefully this will help you as a practitioner or non practitioner understand the spear more thoroughly. The characteristic that I like the most about the spear is because it can be used for close and long-range techniques. It is said that it takes a 1000 days to master the spear. This means training everyday continuously for three years before you have mastered the techniques. Not just when you feel like it for three years. If you have not worked with the spear stay diligent with your training and your time will come.
Historical note on the Yue Fei
For some reason, this sounds very generic.
Something somewhat filled with Martial Arts lore.
Something somewhat filled with Martial Arts lore.
QUOTE(BlueDragonMagik @ Aug 23 2005, 03:03 AM)
It was said that in the Southern Song Dynasty (1127-1280 A.D.) that General Yue Fei added a hook, which was sharp on both edges to the metal end of the spear. This gave him an advantage because he could also cut of the legs of horses.
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This is an odd statement. Since
(1) Yue Fei is a southern Song general but the hook-spear can be traced to at least to the northern song. There are also examples of Ji from the 3kingdom period which kinda look like a spear with a hook. Yue Fei sure wasn't very innovative if he did 'invented' he hook-spear. One might sue him for copyright.
(2) Just how exactly can you 'cut' legs of horses with a spear with a hook ? There are ample evidence that the zhanmadao was made for this purpose. But the hook spear ?
This Cardinal understanding on spears is based on the following:
The spear is a light-weighted weapon that focuses on [speed].
It's primary advantage is its point thrust attack, not its edge.
Cannot see the hook spear as an offensive implement. In most cases, it is only a counter-offensive instrument. The addition of a hook slows down the momentum of a spear thrust.
Most hook spears were used for fighting in river and streams.
If the hook spear players were bored, they can use it as fishing instrument. [LoL!]
With a good teacher, the spear players learn to thrust w/ a spear not to hook.
They do not slam it on the floor like the Chinese Wu Shu dancers.
Nor do they perform large circular blocks similar to staff movements performed by the pseudo Shaolin monks from PRC.
The article was written by an amateur who never play against a "real" spear player in a dark alley.
Food for thought:
Q: If writers uses their pen as a weapon and swordsman uses their sword as weapons. What do hookers uses?
The spear is a light-weighted weapon that focuses on [speed].
It's primary advantage is its point thrust attack, not its edge.
Cannot see the hook spear as an offensive implement. In most cases, it is only a counter-offensive instrument. The addition of a hook slows down the momentum of a spear thrust.
Most hook spears were used for fighting in river and streams.
If the hook spear players were bored, they can use it as fishing instrument. [LoL!]
With a good teacher, the spear players learn to thrust w/ a spear not to hook.
They do not slam it on the floor like the Chinese Wu Shu dancers.
Nor do they perform large circular blocks similar to staff movements performed by the pseudo Shaolin monks from PRC.
The article was written by an amateur who never play against a "real" spear player in a dark alley.
Food for thought:
Q: If writers uses their pen as a weapon and swordsman uses their sword as weapons. What do hookers uses?
QUOTE(Yang Zongbao @ Aug 23 2005, 04:48 PM)
For some reason, this sounds very generic.
Something somewhat filled with Martial Arts lore.
Something somewhat filled with Martial Arts lore.
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Most martial artists never fought a day in their lives, except in a X-Box game.
Therefore they never get a chance 2 experience what they have learned.
Q: Since this bozo wrote this article w.o. ever experiencing the use of hook spear in combat, what does it make him?
QUOTE(CARDINAL009 @ Aug 24 2005, 05:04 PM)
Q: Since this bozo wrote this article w.o. ever experiencing the use of hook spear in combat, what does it make him?
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I wouldn't say that. Except for the history, the things he wrote on that article are pretty sound knowledge passed down through the ages.
You don't need to have experience to know that being shot by a gun will hurt.
I would say that the guy certainly knows a degree of stuff about martial arts. Just not about the history of it
QUOTE(CARDINAL009 @ Aug 24 2005, 03:56 PM)
This Cardinal understanding on spears is based on the following:
The spear is a light-weighted weapon that focuses on [speed].
It's primary advantage is its point thrust attack, not its edge.
Cannot see the hook spear as an offensive implement. In most cases, it is only a counter-offensive instrument. The addition of a hook slows down the momentum of a spear thrust.
Most hook spears were used for fighting in river and streams.
If the hook spear players were bored, they can use it as fishing instrument. [LoL!]
With a good teacher, the spear players learn to thrust w/ a spear not to hook.
They do not slam it on the floor like the Chinese Wu Shu dancers.
Nor do they perform large circular blocks similar to staff movements performed by the pseudo Shaolin monks from PRC.
The article was written by an amateur who never play against a "real" spear player in a dark alley.
Food for thought:
Q: If writers uses their pen as a weapon and swordsman uses their sword as weapons. What do hookers uses?
The spear is a light-weighted weapon that focuses on [speed].
It's primary advantage is its point thrust attack, not its edge.
Cannot see the hook spear as an offensive implement. In most cases, it is only a counter-offensive instrument. The addition of a hook slows down the momentum of a spear thrust.
Most hook spears were used for fighting in river and streams.
If the hook spear players were bored, they can use it as fishing instrument. [LoL!]
With a good teacher, the spear players learn to thrust w/ a spear not to hook.
They do not slam it on the floor like the Chinese Wu Shu dancers.
Nor do they perform large circular blocks similar to staff movements performed by the pseudo Shaolin monks from PRC.
The article was written by an amateur who never play against a "real" spear player in a dark alley.
Food for thought:
Q: If writers uses their pen as a weapon and swordsman uses their sword as weapons. What do hookers uses?
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Yo! ... Cardinal .. Did not know you were a spear master. ... What do you think ... makes a good spear master?
QUOTE(BlueDragonMagik @ Aug 24 2005, 09:51 PM)
Yo! ... Cardinal .. Did not know you were a spear master. ... What do you think ... makes a good spear master?
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Pov- Know the grand rules of martial arts combat, any object can be an implement.
It's a matter of range.
Return to thread @ hand.
Found this data item at emptyflower forum.
Always believe some of the best strategists and warriors are not listed in the mainstream history books. (Now that's an opinion!)
Found this data item at emptyflower forum.
QUOTE
(1620 - 1680) Although some transcripts attribute the Famous General Yue Wu Mu Wang (Yueh Fei) as the creator of Xingyiquan, most historical records can accurately point to Ji Long Feng (also known as Ji Ji Ke) as the person most likely to have created it during the early 1600s.
Legend has it that Ji found Yue's ancient boxing manual on Xingyiquan in a cave at Zhong Nan mountain. This would explain the 500 year lapse in the lineage line.
Ji was from Zhu Feng, an area east of Pu County in Shanxi Province. Today, this place is known as Zhang Ying Zhen Village, Yung Ji County.
Ji revolutionized the boxing of his day and was a master of spear fighting. He laid his martial foundation by first mastering boxing at the Songshan Shaolin Temple, a mecca for the development of civilian fighting methods.
As legends have it, he was at the temple one day reading a book when he spied two roosters fighting. Their fight inspired him to study their characteristics and tactics further, and from his observations he perceived the true essence of fighting and began an assidious examination of animal characteristics. He called his new method the Xinyi Liuhe Quan - "Mind and Will Boxing of the Six Conformities."
In America, if we say that someone is chicken, we mean that that person is scared and spineless - with no courage. But in Asia, chickens and roosters stand for more admirable traits. The popoularity of c**k fights throughout the Asian sphere, which have been held at least as far back as the first milennium, supports that idea. We should not be suprised that in a time when Asian fighters looked at animals to tap that nearly earsed survival instinct some like Jike eventually saw the rooster as inspiration.
Then there are the rooster's symbolic elements. Chinese folk beliefs about the rooster, the tenth animal in the Chinese zodiac, includes it warding off evil. A picture of it over a house protects the structure from fire, and a white rooster on a coffin protects the deceased from demons. Further folk traditions say that the rooster is courageous and beneficiary - the rooster summons the hens to eat the food that he finds - and reliable - the rooster signals the time with his crow. Inspiration did not just come with the rooster's symbolism but also with its inherent behavior and movements, characteristics that revealed a powerful fighting system.
Legend has it that Ji found Yue's ancient boxing manual on Xingyiquan in a cave at Zhong Nan mountain. This would explain the 500 year lapse in the lineage line.
Ji was from Zhu Feng, an area east of Pu County in Shanxi Province. Today, this place is known as Zhang Ying Zhen Village, Yung Ji County.
Ji revolutionized the boxing of his day and was a master of spear fighting. He laid his martial foundation by first mastering boxing at the Songshan Shaolin Temple, a mecca for the development of civilian fighting methods.
As legends have it, he was at the temple one day reading a book when he spied two roosters fighting. Their fight inspired him to study their characteristics and tactics further, and from his observations he perceived the true essence of fighting and began an assidious examination of animal characteristics. He called his new method the Xinyi Liuhe Quan - "Mind and Will Boxing of the Six Conformities."
In America, if we say that someone is chicken, we mean that that person is scared and spineless - with no courage. But in Asia, chickens and roosters stand for more admirable traits. The popoularity of c**k fights throughout the Asian sphere, which have been held at least as far back as the first milennium, supports that idea. We should not be suprised that in a time when Asian fighters looked at animals to tap that nearly earsed survival instinct some like Jike eventually saw the rooster as inspiration.
Then there are the rooster's symbolic elements. Chinese folk beliefs about the rooster, the tenth animal in the Chinese zodiac, includes it warding off evil. A picture of it over a house protects the structure from fire, and a white rooster on a coffin protects the deceased from demons. Further folk traditions say that the rooster is courageous and beneficiary - the rooster summons the hens to eat the food that he finds - and reliable - the rooster signals the time with his crow. Inspiration did not just come with the rooster's symbolism but also with its inherent behavior and movements, characteristics that revealed a powerful fighting system.
Always believe some of the best strategists and warriors are not listed in the mainstream history books. (Now that's an opinion!)
Problem with Chinese today is that the Pinyin 形 and 心 are both Xing. People who are not familiar with this often confuse two very different systems known as 形意拳 and 心意拳.
A few problems with this passage.
(1) This legend is tracing the system to the book named Xingyi-lihe-quanpu (心意六合拳譜) published in 1750 during the reign of Qianlong. What should be noted is that it did not say 形意拳, but just 意拳.
(2) No sources except for this book indicates Yue Fei's hand in the system. Nothing in Song texts, nothing in Jin or Yuen texts.
(3) Ji only attributed the system to Yue Fei. Problem about a culture like China where self-crediting is frowned upon, many people prefer to disguise their down credit by attributing it to someone else. This is mainly where most of the "wise man in mountain" myth came from. Not unlike how people try to attribute Tai Chi to mythical figures like Chen Sanfeng.
Simple problem with this is that the figure in this legend is a different person altogether ! The name of this particular individual is 姬隆峰 in which certainly predated Ji Longbang (戴龍邦)
If we are trying to paint Ji as being the founder, then I would like to point out that the book at best shows that he was a practitioner of the system. Evidence of Xingyi-luhe can be traced to the reign of Yongzhen. Considering Xingyi-luhe is generally considered as a later developement of Xingyiba (心意把), this means that the history of this style can be traced even further back. More importantly, 形意拳 is actually considered an even later developement than Xingyi-luhe. The earliest founding of 形意拳 can be traced to mid 1800s by 李洛能. But even that can be disputed (I won't get into details)
A few problems with this passage.
QUOTE
(1620 - 1680) Although some transcripts attribute the Famous General Yue Wu Mu Wang (Yueh Fei) as the creator of Xingyiquan, most historical records can accurately point to Ji Long Feng (also known as Ji Ji Ke) as the person most likely to have created it during the early 1600s.
Legend has it that Ji found Yue's ancient boxing manual on Xingyiquan in a cave at Zhong Nan mountain. This would explain the 500 year lapse in the lineage line.
If we are still trying to paint Yue Fei as the founder the the 形意拳 system, a few things that we should take into account of this. Legend has it that Ji found Yue's ancient boxing manual on Xingyiquan in a cave at Zhong Nan mountain. This would explain the 500 year lapse in the lineage line.
(1) This legend is tracing the system to the book named Xingyi-lihe-quanpu (心意六合拳譜) published in 1750 during the reign of Qianlong. What should be noted is that it did not say 形意拳, but just 意拳.
(2) No sources except for this book indicates Yue Fei's hand in the system. Nothing in Song texts, nothing in Jin or Yuen texts.
(3) Ji only attributed the system to Yue Fei. Problem about a culture like China where self-crediting is frowned upon, many people prefer to disguise their down credit by attributing it to someone else. This is mainly where most of the "wise man in mountain" myth came from. Not unlike how people try to attribute Tai Chi to mythical figures like Chen Sanfeng.
QUOTE
As legends have it, he was at the temple one day reading a book when he spied two roosters fighting. Their fight inspired him to study their characteristics and tactics further, and from his observations he perceived the true essence of fighting and began an assidious examination of animal characteristics. He called his new method the Xinyi Liuhe Quan - "Mind and Will Boxing of the Six Conformities."
Simple problem with this is that the figure in this legend is a different person altogether ! The name of this particular individual is 姬隆峰 in which certainly predated Ji Longbang (戴龍邦)
If we are trying to paint Ji as being the founder, then I would like to point out that the book at best shows that he was a practitioner of the system. Evidence of Xingyi-luhe can be traced to the reign of Yongzhen. Considering Xingyi-luhe is generally considered as a later developement of Xingyiba (心意把), this means that the history of this style can be traced even further back. More importantly, 形意拳 is actually considered an even later developement than Xingyi-luhe. The earliest founding of 形意拳 can be traced to mid 1800s by 李洛能. But even that can be disputed (I won't get into details)
QUOTE(Wujiang @ Aug 26 2005, 09:26 PM)
Problem with Chinese today is that the Pinyin 形 and 心 are both Xing. People who are not familiar with this often confuse two very different systems known as 形意拳 and 心意拳.
If we are trying to paint Ji as being the founder, then I would like to point out that the book at best shows that he was a practitioner of the system. Evidence of Xingyi-luhe can be traced to the reign of Yongzhen. Considering Xingyi-luhe is generally considered as a later developement of Xingyiba (心意把), this means that the history of this style can be traced even further back. More importantly, 形意拳 is actually considered an even later developement than Xingyi-luhe. The earliest founding of 形意拳 can be traced to mid 1800s by 李洛能. But even that can be disputed (I won't get into details)
If we are trying to paint Ji as being the founder, then I would like to point out that the book at best shows that he was a practitioner of the system. Evidence of Xingyi-luhe can be traced to the reign of Yongzhen. Considering Xingyi-luhe is generally considered as a later developement of Xingyiba (心意把), this means that the history of this style can be traced even further back. More importantly, 形意拳 is actually considered an even later developement than Xingyi-luhe. The earliest founding of 形意拳 can be traced to mid 1800s by 李洛能. But even that can be disputed (I won't get into details)
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Wujing,
I have never studied Xing Yi Quan before, but I seen enough of it. I wonder what are the differences between 形意拳 and 心意拳 ? ... Can ya also tell me about those disputed details?
QUOTE(BlueDragonMagik @ Aug 27 2005, 12:52 AM)
I have never studied Xing Yi Quan before, but I seen enough of it. I wonder what are the differences between 形意拳 and 心意拳 ? ... Can ya also tell me about those disputed details?
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Visually, they are two completely different systems altogether. Unfortumately, without actual demonstrations, there are only so much I can say and even those are confusing because of the intermixing of 形意, 心意, 心意六合, 六合八法 and 意拳
For example, 心意六合拳 employs the 10 animal forms. But at the same time we can see one of the two main branches of 形意 with 10 animals (with the other branch having 12). It is just that the techniques that are used to display them are different. Sorry, I can't really go any deeper without demos and using Chinese.
I do not wish to go into details in the spirit of keeping martial arts politics out of this. These disputes are often the subject of who has the legitimate lienage holder. A massive can of worns I don't want to open, just like how I don't want to get into the dispute of why UFC does not prove the effectiveness of a system.
Some say that 李洛能 was the person who made the key transition between 心意拳 to 形意拳 some say he wasn't. Some said that it was someone else who made this transition. just at a later age but people eventually then claim it was him rather than other 'real' founders (which I will not name), It is just that among the number of people who is in dispute, he is the earliest that is thrown on the table.
QUOTE(BlueDragonMagik @ Aug 17 2005, 01:53 AM)
I was reading in one thread about Lin Chong (from the Outlaws/Water Margin fame) was the best in using his (snake head) spear from the horseback and on the ground. ... I also heard Yueh Fei was also the best spear player of his time. ... These are the best of the best that I know of ...
I wonder who else should be in the list.
Zhao Yun, Zhang Fei and Jiang Wei (In San Guo Yan Yi)
the Yang Clan
The Huyan Clan
the Sha Clan
Lin Chong
Hua Mulan
Mu Guiying
FaMulan,
I borrowed the names from Yang Zongbao in the "Chinese spear" topic. ... The bottom line is who will win and why? ...
I wonder who else should be in the list.
Zhao Yun, Zhang Fei and Jiang Wei (In San Guo Yan Yi)
the Yang Clan
The Huyan Clan
the Sha Clan
Lin Chong
Hua Mulan
Mu Guiying
FaMulan,
I borrowed the names from Yang Zongbao in the "Chinese spear" topic. ... The bottom line is who will win and why? ...
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Isn't.... Hua Mulan and Fa Mulan the same person?
QUOTE(naruwan @ Aug 27 2005, 12:39 AM)
Isn't.... Hua Mulan and Fa Mulan the same person?
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Y!
Hi all,
I have to two names here. If you talk about great spear fighters in chinese history you cant leave two legendary baji masters mentioned. They are the first historical baji master Wu Zhong and the legendary Li Shuwen. Both nicknamed "God of Spear" or something. If you want to read story about Wu look this: Grand Master Wu Zhong
You can ask me more about these masters or about baji and i try to answer if i can, but it can take quite long before i answer. (quite busy and not wisiting this site so often)
Peace
Loh'kjäärme
I have to two names here. If you talk about great spear fighters in chinese history you cant leave two legendary baji masters mentioned. They are the first historical baji master Wu Zhong and the legendary Li Shuwen. Both nicknamed "God of Spear" or something. If you want to read story about Wu look this: Grand Master Wu Zhong
You can ask me more about these masters or about baji and i try to answer if i can, but it can take quite long before i answer. (quite busy and not wisiting this site so often)
Peace
Loh'kjäärme
Ironically. Wu Zhong's name isn't as famous as Li Shuwen. And there really isn't any information that he performed any incredible feat. At least with Li Shuwen, he was said (abit rather unbelieveable) that he was able to kill flys on a window without scratching the window. Hence, except for his fame, there really isn't anything we can count on for him.
And that last part of the website where it talks about the Southern Shaolin sounds awfully like a folklore to me. The best evidence for this is the fact that no evidence show that Southern Shaolin ever existed outside the imagination of martial artist. And the who wooden dummy hall was something that came out of the martial arts novels.
Oddly, there are a number of "Shenchiangs" that came out of the school of Baji. Wu Zhong and Li Shuwen was only two of them. Maybe these titles became heriditary somehow ? If that is so, then the title would really devalue quite a bit.
And that last part of the website where it talks about the Southern Shaolin sounds awfully like a folklore to me. The best evidence for this is the fact that no evidence show that Southern Shaolin ever existed outside the imagination of martial artist. And the who wooden dummy hall was something that came out of the martial arts novels.
Oddly, there are a number of "Shenchiangs" that came out of the school of Baji. Wu Zhong and Li Shuwen was only two of them. Maybe these titles became heriditary somehow ? If that is so, then the title would really devalue quite a bit.
QUOTE(Wujiang @ Sep 6 2005, 09:35 AM)
Ironically. Wu Zhong's name isn't as famous as Li Shuwen. And there really isn't any information that he performed any incredible feat. At least with Li Shuwen, he was said (abit rather unbelieveable) that he was able to kill flys on a window without scratching the window. Hence, except for his fame, there really isn't anything we can count on for him.
And that last part of the website where it talks about the Southern Shaolin sounds awfully like a folklore to me. The best evidence for this is the fact that no evidence show that Southern Shaolin ever existed outside the imagination of martial artist. And the who wooden dummy hall was something that came out of the martial arts novels.
Oddly, there are a number of "Shenchiangs" that came out of the school of Baji. Wu Zhong and Li Shuwen was only two of them. Maybe these titles became heriditary somehow ? If that is so, then the title would really devalue quite a bit.
And that last part of the website where it talks about the Southern Shaolin sounds awfully like a folklore to me. The best evidence for this is the fact that no evidence show that Southern Shaolin ever existed outside the imagination of martial artist. And the who wooden dummy hall was something that came out of the martial arts novels.
Oddly, there are a number of "Shenchiangs" that came out of the school of Baji. Wu Zhong and Li Shuwen was only two of them. Maybe these titles became heriditary somehow ? If that is so, then the title would really devalue quite a bit.
[snapback]4756211[/snapback]
Say! .... What is the rank above "Shenchiangs"? ... ChiangShen!?
... It is a cute, but totally unreal story. ... Most stories that we read tells us what they done. No one EVER mentions "how" they did it? ... What kind of drills did they practice? ... I wondered if this is the secret of most martial arts systems. ... I really wonder what are the secret of "REAL" martial arts???
Agree with Wujiang; the Shaolin part sounds ALOT like Folklore.
QUOTE(Wujiang @ Aug 27 2005, 12:26 AM)
Visually, they are two completely different systems altogether. Unfortumately, without actual demonstrations, there are only so much I can say and even those are confusing because of the intermixing of 形意, 心意, 心意六合, 六合八法 and 意拳
For example, 心意六合拳 employs the 10 animal forms. But at the same time we can see one of the two main branches of 形意 with 10 animals (with the other branch having 12). It is just that the techniques that are used to display them are different. Sorry, I can't really go any deeper without demos and using Chinese.
I do not wish to go into details in the spirit of keeping martial arts politics out of this. These disputes are often the subject of who has the legitimate lienage holder. A massive can of worns I don't want to open, just like how I don't want to get into the dispute of why UFC does not prove the effectiveness of a system.
Some say that 李洛能 was the person who made the key transition between 心意拳 to 形意拳 some say he wasn't. Some said that it was someone else who made this transition. just at a later age but people eventually then claim it was him rather than other 'real' founders (which I will not name), It is just that among the number of people who is in dispute, he is the earliest that is thrown on the table.
For example, 心意六合拳 employs the 10 animal forms. But at the same time we can see one of the two main branches of 形意 with 10 animals (with the other branch having 12). It is just that the techniques that are used to display them are different. Sorry, I can't really go any deeper without demos and using Chinese.
I do not wish to go into details in the spirit of keeping martial arts politics out of this. These disputes are often the subject of who has the legitimate lienage holder. A massive can of worns I don't want to open, just like how I don't want to get into the dispute of why UFC does not prove the effectiveness of a system.
Some say that 李洛能 was the person who made the key transition between 心意拳 to 形意拳 some say he wasn't. Some said that it was someone else who made this transition. just at a later age but people eventually then claim it was him rather than other 'real' founders (which I will not name), It is just that among the number of people who is in dispute, he is the earliest that is thrown on the table.
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I forgot to thank you for your reply. ... What style of Xing Yi (Hsing-i) do you study?
QUOTE(CARDINAL009 @ Aug 24 2005, 07:04 PM)
Most martial artists never fought a day in their lives, except in a X-Box game.
Therefore they never get a chance 2 experience what they have learned.
Q: Since this bozo wrote this article w.o. ever experiencing the use of hook spear in combat, what does it make him?
Therefore they never get a chance 2 experience what they have learned.
Q: Since this bozo wrote this article w.o. ever experiencing the use of hook spear in combat, what does it make him?
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Haha......nicely put.
QUOTE
Problem with Chinese today is that the Pinyin 形 and 心 are both Xing. People who are not familiar with this often confuse two very different systems known as 形意拳 and 心意拳.
形 = xing
心 = xin
QUOTE(BlueNote @ Sep 6 2005, 10:32 PM)
Haha......nicely put.
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No body here ever experienced a gun fight either. But the idea of aim and shoot seems pretty legit to me. Remember, don't attack the speaker. Just what is being said. And what he said was sound and legit.
Historians never lived in ancient times either. Does that make what they say any less valid ?
QUOTE(Wujiang @ Sep 6 2005, 06:35 PM)
Ironically. Wu Zhong's name isn't as famous as Li Shuwen. And there really isn't any information that he performed any incredible feat. At least with Li Shuwen, he was said (abit rather unbelieveable) that he was able to kill flys on a window without scratching the window. Hence, except for his fame, there really isn't anything we can count on for him.
And that last part of the website where it talks about the Southern Shaolin sounds awfully like a folklore to me. The best evidence for this is the fact that no evidence show that Southern Shaolin ever existed outside the imagination of martial artist. And the who wooden dummy hall was something that came out of the martial arts novels.
Oddly, there are a number of "Shenchiangs" that came out of the school of Baji. Wu Zhong and Li Shuwen was only two of them. Maybe these titles became heriditary somehow ? If that is so, then the title would really devalue quite a bit.
And that last part of the website where it talks about the Southern Shaolin sounds awfully like a folklore to me. The best evidence for this is the fact that no evidence show that Southern Shaolin ever existed outside the imagination of martial artist. And the who wooden dummy hall was something that came out of the martial arts novels.
Oddly, there are a number of "Shenchiangs" that came out of the school of Baji. Wu Zhong and Li Shuwen was only two of them. Maybe these titles became heriditary somehow ? If that is so, then the title would really devalue quite a bit.
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Yes that was just a story, probably folklore by most parts. But baji spear techniques are famous and proven very good, especially the baji long spear. As i think xingyi spear too. But i dont know so much about these weapons, not used so much these days...
What is Shenchiangs?
Actually, the Luhe-daqiang wasn't a spear art exclusive to Baji. It was just a common spear art that was around in the north of China at the time. Honestly, it wouldn't be that popular unless it was a good system.
Shenchiang means Devine Spear. A title that alot of Baji people seem to hold. I think it that the title became hiretitary sometime down the line. Although no doubt there were a number of good spear fighters that the school of Baji produced, considering that they were just practicing more or less the same system as everyone else did at the time, I find it hard to believe that everyone down that line was worthy of such a title.
Shenchiang means Devine Spear. A title that alot of Baji people seem to hold. I think it that the title became hiretitary sometime down the line. Although no doubt there were a number of good spear fighters that the school of Baji produced, considering that they were just practicing more or less the same system as everyone else did at the time, I find it hard to believe that everyone down that line was worthy of such a title.
really hard to say who is the best.But somehow, Yang Clan' spear art has been partly inherited. My brother practices a set excersises of spear, and the origin of the set is from Yang. Others' arts have been lost.
www.ctwenhua.com
QUOTE(athena @ Sep 21 2005, 08:04 PM) [snapback]4760021[/snapback]
really hard to say who is the best.But somehow, Yang Clan' spear art has been partly inherited. My brother practices a set excersises of spear, and the origin of the set is from Yang. Others' arts have been lost.
www.ctwenhua.com
I wonder what is the "trademark move" ( I think that is right phrase) or what are the trademark moves of your bro's spear exercise. ... Can you tell us please? ...
Lots of people like to trace their fighting styles back to famous generals. A bonus if they fought invaders.
But at least for the Yang Clans- I hold a certain hope.
But at least for the Yang Clans- I hold a certain hope.
Dude...someone tell me of the trademark move of Shi Wansui of Sui and I'd be mighty pleased.
A thrust and down goes a Turkut warrior. The Turkut army retreats as stipulated in the earlier agreement.
This is a true duel that decided a battle.
A thrust and down goes a Turkut warrior. The Turkut army retreats as stipulated in the earlier agreement.
This is a true duel that decided a battle.
was re-reading this thread.
The better qstn: What makes a good warrior (forget about the implement & training)?
A thrust is a thrust
Q: What counts are the many [efficient] setup leading to to the consummate thrust?
The better qstn: What makes a good warrior (forget about the implement & training)?
QUOTE(Sephodwyrm @ Sep 22 2005, 07:28 AM) [snapback]4760152[/snapback]
Dude...someone tell me of the trademark move of Shi Wansui of Sui and I'd be mighty pleased.
A thrust and down goes a Turkut warrior. The Turkut army retreats as stipulated in the earlier agreement.
This is a true duel that decided a battle.
A thrust and down goes a Turkut warrior. The Turkut army retreats as stipulated in the earlier agreement.
This is a true duel that decided a battle.
A thrust is a thrust
Q: What counts are the many [efficient] setup leading to to the consummate thrust?
QUOTE(BlueDragonMagik @ Sep 22 2005, 01:22 AM) [snapback]4760085[/snapback]
I wonder what is the "trademark move" ( I think that is right phrase) or what are the trademark moves of your bro's spear exercise. ... Can you tell us please? ...
There is a set excersises of spear in Chen Taiji. It's called LiHua Qiang.
A prevailing saying says "20 years of LiHua Qiang practicing makes you no enemy on the world".
Yes, that may be what it says. But remember. All Martial Arts systems like to tell their students "You will be invincible after 2 decades of practice!"
I wouldn't put alot of weight on that statement, all martial arts systems say that, and you just have to take everyone's stuff with a grain of salt.
I wouldn't put alot of weight on that statement, all martial arts systems say that, and you just have to take everyone's stuff with a grain of salt.
QUOTE(athena @ Sep 23 2005, 09:47 PM) [snapback]4760424[/snapback]
There is a set excersises of spear in Chen Taiji. It's called LiHua Qiang.
A prevailing saying says "20 years of LiHua Qiang practicing makes you no enemy on the world".
A prevailing saying says "20 years of LiHua Qiang practicing makes you no enemy on the world".
Athena. ... I have heard of Li Hua Qiang. ... But I have heard from Baji ppl that they say their Baji Qiang is more superior. ... I am so confused. ... What is the trademark move of LiHua Qiang?
Exactly my point. Everyone says their spear is the best in the world.
QUOTE(Yang Zongbao @ Sep 24 2005, 10:10 AM) [snapback]4760506[/snapback]
Exactly my point. Everyone says their spear is the best in the world.
I really believe what we really need is a TV show that shows duels of different styles. ... The only problem is that ... most of those teachers are scared to get hurt. ...
But that is pointless to establish which style is better than another, for it's a fighter's personal skill that counts, rather than the style itself.
QUOTE(Yang Zongbao @ Sep 24 2005, 08:56 PM) [snapback]4760606[/snapback]
But that is pointless to establish which style is better than another, for it's a fighter's personal skill that counts, rather than the style itself.
Yzb,
Agree w. your pov.
There are many factors in determining a victor:
* Ability to prepare;
* Ability to handle pressure; and
* Personal skill to implement momentum and power through the weapon
counts in more cases.
In some rare cases, it is the system.
That's how the world is.
QUOTE(Yang Zongbao @ Sep 24 2005, 10:10 AM) [snapback]4760506[/snapback]
Exactly my point. Everyone says their spear is the best in the world.
This Cardinal thought a 357 Desert Eagle was a better ["Cheong"]. [LoL!]
Li Shuwen a.k.a. God of Spear Li. One of the most famous practitioners of Baji Quan. His skill with the spear was so complete that he was completely unmatched in terms of spear fighting.
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