Once i read in a book that the scientists are puzzled they found special plating on Qin era armor that is only possible by a recent invention.
Anyone has info on it?
Full Version: Plating technology of Qin
QUOTE(Chiang Kai-shek @ Aug 26 2005, 02:23 PM)
Once i read in a book that the scientists are puzzled they found special plating on Qin era armor that is only possible by a recent invention.
Anyone has info on it?
Anyone has info on it?
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I know that Warring states period weapons had shiny, silvery, corrosion resistant plating that has caused some controversy over the years. I am currently doing a study in conjunction with several other persons/organizations on pieces with this plating and hope to publish the results within a year. Previous studies have suggested chromium was an element of the plating but we are finding that chromium is more likely a ground element leeching from the soil and that the plating was a combination of tin and silicon. Much less advanced that previously thought but still very effective.
QUOTE(Rich @ Aug 27 2005, 05:38 AM)
I know that Warring states period weapons had shiny, silvery, corrosion resistant plating that has caused some controversy over the years. I am currently doing a study in conjunction with several other persons/organizations on pieces with this plating and hope to publish the results within a year. Previous studies have suggested chromium was an element of the plating but we are finding that chromium is more likely a ground element leeching from the soil and that the plating was a combination of tin and silicon. Much less advanced that previously thought but still very effective.
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Any online info on this?
I remember there was something someone posted on Swordforum on this, but I'll have to dig it up sometime; it was a long time ago.
'Rich' I had deduced was Richard Nable and since he made 1 post I have been trying to cajole him into posting more...without success.
The chroming technique seems to be unconfirmed as of yet, and the possiblity of chromonium leeching from the soild needs verification. One thing I must say is I saw no evidence on the Qin weapons I saw of anything like we would consider a 'chroming' in modern standards and the idea it is a natural residue would need confirming.
The silvery surfaced items called 'chromed' amongst other ancient Chinese bronzes are visually different. The Qin items were not silvery, so the layer must be absolutely negligible. It simply looks like an unpatinated bronze to me...i.e yellow bronze.
The silvery chromed pieces that really have had a second layer atop are completely different and what in some cases at a glance looks like 'silvered' bronze must have been layered by something else.
I earlier had some 'chromed' bronze horse links that I posted here;
http://s8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_Cent...owtopic=15&st=0
I just recieved a new item (this parasol tip chromed & with incast detail) which leads me to post this, and it has the same curious surface. The feel in the hand is quite unlike a simple unpatinated bronze, and is slick and frictionless. There is regular 'yellow'bronze underneath this layer.
It has been cleaned & polished after casting. Whether it is sealed with silicon should be considered...as sand crucibles for bronze may have resulted in discovery of glass for gilding.
I continue to discuss this with Richard who is looking into it via research and testing, and I for my part contacted a nice fellow who make bronze age items in traditional authentic manner at a reprocuction bronze age village in Demark.
Just shows how these are curious items that dont give clear 'how they done it' answers even in the 21st century.
I await Richards hypothesis and test results with interest.
I favour the idea of a 'white bronze' layer over the top, like the silver and gold gildings that were done on bronze. The frictionless feel is the odd thing...silicon? I dont know.
Jereon's points above rule out lead...and quite why tin resists corrosion in this way even better than gold or silver guilding is a puzzle.
I have a number of other new items to post shortly....but need to absorb them first (mentally I mean).
The chroming technique seems to be unconfirmed as of yet, and the possiblity of chromonium leeching from the soild needs verification. One thing I must say is I saw no evidence on the Qin weapons I saw of anything like we would consider a 'chroming' in modern standards and the idea it is a natural residue would need confirming.
The silvery surfaced items called 'chromed' amongst other ancient Chinese bronzes are visually different. The Qin items were not silvery, so the layer must be absolutely negligible. It simply looks like an unpatinated bronze to me...i.e yellow bronze.
The silvery chromed pieces that really have had a second layer atop are completely different and what in some cases at a glance looks like 'silvered' bronze must have been layered by something else.
I earlier had some 'chromed' bronze horse links that I posted here;
http://s8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_Cent...owtopic=15&st=0
QUOTE
Bronze links from a horses harness or reins. The larger ones have some odd treatment, and almost dont look like bronze on the outside (although inside has a normal patina).
The dealer suggested they are 'chromed', and it is possible. Another alternative is that they are high tin content and then have a silicon (glasslike) coating, as has been done to other ancient Chinese bronze.
Another possibilty is that they have a very very high lead content (outside almost looks like lead, with metal globdules visible inside the surface).
(picture of the horse rein links are on the thread)The dealer suggested they are 'chromed', and it is possible. Another alternative is that they are high tin content and then have a silicon (glasslike) coating, as has been done to other ancient Chinese bronze.
Another possibilty is that they have a very very high lead content (outside almost looks like lead, with metal globdules visible inside the surface).
I just recieved a new item (this parasol tip chromed & with incast detail) which leads me to post this, and it has the same curious surface. The feel in the hand is quite unlike a simple unpatinated bronze, and is slick and frictionless. There is regular 'yellow'bronze underneath this layer.
It has been cleaned & polished after casting. Whether it is sealed with silicon should be considered...as sand crucibles for bronze may have resulted in discovery of glass for gilding.
I continue to discuss this with Richard who is looking into it via research and testing, and I for my part contacted a nice fellow who make bronze age items in traditional authentic manner at a reprocuction bronze age village in Demark.
QUOTE
Hi Kenneth,
I've just recently seen some footage of a fantastic sword from china showing exactly the same silvery finish. That sword was in absolute mint condition, and still razor sharp. I don't know what coating they used, as this technology was well beyond European bronze age metalworking. I know that a high lead contents can give a silvery finish on bronze. But lead is very corrosive, so I wouldn't expect this to give the bronze much protection. With tin, the tin always completely dissolves in the copper, so no matter how much you add, you don't get a tin-like surface. It will become more white in color, as opposed to goldish, but not like the coating you mention. High tin also makes it brittle as glass, so it's not something you'd really want. As for the other options, silicon has a high melting point. If you'd want to apply silicon by coating it in powder, and then melting it, the bronze would probably melt. Maybe they could have applied the heat in a very concentrated area (with s
ome equevalent of a bunsen burner), so the metal itself wouldn't heat up as much. Chromium, I have no idea how that would have been done. Perhaps with a chemical solution? In modern time we use electoplating or vacuum forming to chrome stuff, but I don't know if there's possible alternatives that they may have used. At any rate, it is quite remarkable what the Chinese achieved in metalworking techniques!
I've just recently seen some footage of a fantastic sword from china showing exactly the same silvery finish. That sword was in absolute mint condition, and still razor sharp. I don't know what coating they used, as this technology was well beyond European bronze age metalworking. I know that a high lead contents can give a silvery finish on bronze. But lead is very corrosive, so I wouldn't expect this to give the bronze much protection. With tin, the tin always completely dissolves in the copper, so no matter how much you add, you don't get a tin-like surface. It will become more white in color, as opposed to goldish, but not like the coating you mention. High tin also makes it brittle as glass, so it's not something you'd really want. As for the other options, silicon has a high melting point. If you'd want to apply silicon by coating it in powder, and then melting it, the bronze would probably melt. Maybe they could have applied the heat in a very concentrated area (with s
ome equevalent of a bunsen burner), so the metal itself wouldn't heat up as much. Chromium, I have no idea how that would have been done. Perhaps with a chemical solution? In modern time we use electoplating or vacuum forming to chrome stuff, but I don't know if there's possible alternatives that they may have used. At any rate, it is quite remarkable what the Chinese achieved in metalworking techniques!
Just shows how these are curious items that dont give clear 'how they done it' answers even in the 21st century.
I await Richards hypothesis and test results with interest.
I favour the idea of a 'white bronze' layer over the top, like the silver and gold gildings that were done on bronze. The frictionless feel is the odd thing...silicon? I dont know.
Jereon's points above rule out lead...and quite why tin resists corrosion in this way even better than gold or silver guilding is a puzzle.
I have a number of other new items to post shortly....but need to absorb them first (mentally I mean).
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