Hi! I very need a picture of china closed helmet.

I dont know they was in reality or dont.

Im from Ukrain Historycal Fencing club that reconstructs mongols. Im trying to reconstruct china artillerist, but i need a closed helmet for kepping my teeth in mouth, can you help me?

Here some pictures from one china film? there was closed helmets, but thay dont looks histiorical.

PS: sorry for my english!

Illustrations of Mongol artillery show men in open faced helmets and cavalry armour or unarmoured men with turbans.

Have a look at the Chinese siege weapons thread on "Art of War", "Chinese Arsenaal" section.

There were no closed helmets in Chinese history. The closest was the addition of a nose guard and a neck guard, which could be of scale, lamellar, brigandine, or chain mail depending on the period. Here are examples of Mongol troops with brigandine neck guards:



And Ming troops:


The man second from left has a chain mail neck guard, and the man second from right has a brigandine neck guard reinforced with iron scales.

I wouldn't say "none at all". Some Persian, Tibetan. Indian and Central Asian heavy cavalry used chain face guards (with just eyeholes) and the odd example may have been used by Chinese cavalry. I think that a couple of Wei tomb paintings show them.

I've heard that in the Song/Jin wars, both sides wore iron face masks, the sort that would be adopted in Japan. Never seen any pictures though, and I don't know how accurate it is to say so.

I agree with Tom. Troops that seem most common with chain face guards were Mamluks who served in various armies of the middle east, from Egypt to Khorasan. Khwarizmians have been depicted as having metal face guards as well as Tarkhan hero's of Timur's army.

The helmuts on this firt posting look like orc helmuts from Lord of the Rings.

Cheers

So, i can make a chain protection or some sort of mask.
About masks, did somebody else think that this is true?

I know, but i dont want get face fractures and/or eye/teeth knock out.



Have pictures of this paintings?



Yeah but from another film - "Warriors of erth ad heavens"

The trend was started by Di Qing, a Song general whose success against Xi Xia rested on his bravery. He wore a fearsome mask during battle, and let his hair loose. Upon seeing the masked Di Qing, the Xi Xia cavalry would be intimadated by this seeming ghost and retreat.

The helmets were worn by Turkut (Tujue) cavalry in that film - hardly accurate, I'd say.



Not that I know of - do you have any samples with you? I was talking about indigenous Chinese designs for closed helmets. Certainly it's possible that some used helmets imported from or modelled on Central Asia, Tibet or the Middle East.

Sorry to disappoint 013, Chinese does not have close helmets in any time of its history. Unless of course you count face masks which occured in the Song dynasty

Let me take the part in the discussion.

In some Qing era novels warriors with steel masks are mentioned.

E.g. "The fearless warrior of Heaven Empire" (XVIII) about Yue Fei. There was mentioned a close battle formation of mounted Nuzhen (Jin warriors of Tungus origin) in closed helmets.

Then Mongols who were incorporated into Qing empire have special term "chivegchtei" which means a helmet with a mask. Probably some of Mongols in Qing army wore such helmets in XVII century.

Then there are some real artefacts from Jin excavations (XIII) - some of them are determined not as ritual but the real battle masks.

And regarding the period of Zhou - some masks were found but only small part of them could be used in battles.

So to make the exact replica of a helmet we should determine the era and the speciality of the warrior.

Best regards,

Alexey

P.S. 013, if you are from Ukraine I believe you can speak Russian So you can contact me directly and look through my site altaica.nm.ru

As for me, I can speak Ukrainian enough

Thank for all, Altaica Militarica ill cath you up

Altaica, do you know where images could be found?

I have a book with some pictures of Zhou masks, but not of Song/Mongol stuff

So, can you show this pictures with masks?

TMPikachu, I am not too sure about how reliable they are in terms of battle masks. From some of the samples that have been recovered, they could either be ceremonial or burial masks. Almost no evidence suggests that they were used in war.

I never see this helmet before

Those helmets looks more like something out of Star Wars than ancient China. I can't say I know of any historical helmets that even come close to those. Face-coverings were more common on the western steppes and in the middle east(and even then, they didn't look anything like those). I've never seen any evidence that they became popular in the eastern steppes or China. I mean beyond a few isolated incidents.

Yes, exactly so (especially hundreds of masks from tomb in Suqun). But there are several cases when masks were found melted by rust to the helmets.

Best regards,

Alexey.

Russian scholars have excavated some masks of Jin empire in vicinity of Vladivostok and Khabarovsk (these lands were inhabted by Nuzhen in Jin era and were a part of Jin empire).

Several of them were analyzed by one of the leading experts of medieval Oriental Armoury in Russia - prof. Leonid A. Bobrov. He has attributed these steel masks as a piece of armour suitable for archers who defended the wall of the fortress as the masks were shaped according to the human face and got a small openings for eyes. It made masks not suitable to fight in cavalry or infantry battles but allowed to hit offenders with arrows when they went to assault the walls.

I will try to get the files with these masks from Bobrov, but it seems he is in field capm performing the excavations.

Best regards,

Alexey.

P.S. Mongol masks are only described. No images have survived.

Altaica, are they comparable to Japanese battle masks?

Look here: http://www.ramus.ru/forum_alt/viewtopic.php?t=159

This is the reconstruction of Jin warriors by prof. Bobrov and the second pic is the mask from the burg of Shaiginskoe (Far Eastern region of Russia).

I think the excavation could give us additional materials.

Best regards,

Alexey.

That mask is bone chilling...

BTW, where can I find some of Prof. Bobrov's work?

Unfortunately i do not know the English version of his works. The reconstruction of Jin and Qing warriors you can find here:

http://www.nsu.ru/aw/catalog.do

Links with figures mean:
01 - Stone age
02 - Bronze age
03 - Early Iron age
04 - Xiongnu & Sarmats
05 - Dark ages
06 - Middle ages (Song and Jing warriors are there)
07 - Late middle ages
08 - Period of Russian invasion

But all comments are in Russian. So, if you need to get known about the picture please, tell me with the lin. I will translate it.

Best regards,

Alexey

The reconstruction is interesting though I'd make a few comments.

#1 He gives the warriors face masks with very poor visability yet had them bare handed (no gloves or armour). Very unlikely.
#2 The figures don't have bowcases, presumably they have been left off for clarity?
#3 The figures have later stle holster quivers with the arrows point down. All the evidence I've seen shows Jin and Liao with point up box quivers.

#4 Isn't it assumed by other archeologists that these were funeral masks rather than armour as they are very thin and have very restricted vision.

Do you know where this example is ? If so, if you know anyone who know anyone who konw anyone x 1000 who might just have a photo of it ?
Interesting that you name that it was the Jin and not other time. Because Chinese sources also show that masks were used for the Song-Jin wars. No other period have such documents.

Not nessessarily. There is actually very little evidence to show that the Chinese had armour for their hands. Forearm, yes. But as far as the hand is concerned, none. However, Song dynasty armour did have a hubei which was armour for the back of the hand.


Come on buddy, it is a picture. Give it some degree of freedom. Unless it is one of those paintings on a wall or something, cut it some slack.


That would be my assumption too. Considering this particular mask, it would be awful to wear into battle. But Song texts did indicate that both sides had masks in the war. So this particular piece seem to still be an open question.
Of interesting now is that although the Japanese also had masks, they were actually rarely used for the same reason of being too uncomfortable. Sources say that they were nothing more than items to show the skills of the armourer. Only chin and nose guard was used.

Excellent!, I'll give the site a better look when I have the time.

Much appreciated.

I'm interested in this suit of armour, some information would be greatly appreciated.

Click to view attachmentClick to view attachment

Are these Jin?

Alexey, does your link have pictures of Khwarizmians? If so can you provide the link. I can't read Russian.

Cheers

Chris

on the quiver case... what are the major differences in eras? (pictures?)

Interesting, that looks almost identical to the Tangnijia from the Ming dynasty. This puts a whole new complexion to the matter.

1) The mask really has very small openings. But prof. Bobrov says it makes the vision to concentrate during melee. And there are no artefacts of hand protectors excavated. He assumes they could be organic.
2) I will ask prof. Bobrov to clarify the matter when he come back.
3) Regarding quivers he writes they use both styles.
4) The mask is of steel plate of 2 mm. thick and was found in gate tower. Regarding the vision please see above.

Best regards,

Alexey.

Thanks Alexy,
This is very interesting (well to me it's absolutely fascinating).
Could you also as prof. Bobrov his opinion on the growth in use of armour by the Jin. The written record implies that they lacked armour initially (though once they had full control of the Empire that would be easily resolved). The use of both types of quiver is also very interesting. Is there any geographical or chronological distinction in the use of the two styles? Or perhaps just personal preference? (they imply quite different shooting techniques and are thus also very interesting evidence of how the Jin cavalry fought).

Please look here. Here some samples of original Jin images of Nuzhen warriors with bows and arrows:
http://www.nsu.ru/aw/resource.do?id=49

http://www.nsu.ru/aw/resource.do?id=57

http://www.nsu.ru/aw/resource.do?id=52

http://www.nsu.ru/aw/resource.do?id=273

http://www.nsu.ru/aw/resource.do?id=272

http://www.nsu.ru/aw/resource.do?id=56

Regarding quivers - I will contact Leonid when he come back. He keeps silence for a month at least in spite of some interesting materials I have sent to him.

Then there are 2 passages of Song era chronicles regarding of Jin cavalry tactics. They are very close to each other as both of them were borrowed from one Song original which did not survive. I will try to translate them in English.

Best regards,

Alexey.

By the way, we get Iron Men of Koxinga!

Let's remember - they had iron helmet with iron masks. Those helmets & masks were captured fron defeated Qing army (see posting of Koxinga army).

So, now we can tell honestly: "Chinese had such helmets!"

Best regards,

Alexey.

Masks in the Qing dynasty ? Can you give an example ? I know they had a wrap around helmet which covered their necks, but I have yet to find an example of masks. Even from Koxinga's ranks. Do you have a link or something please ?

Thanks Alexy,

These are his own drawings. Is there another page that gives a little more detail on the sources.

eg the cavalry in the first are from image from a miniature of an epoch of dynasty Цзинь « Performance of guards in a campaign … » (I don't read Russian so used a translator programme, often the results are more amusing than enlightening).
The second ones (who have the other style of quiver) The image from the Chinese picture « Hunting of emperor of dynasty Ляо ». are from a much later painting and are representative of Manchu hunters contemporary to the artist rather than XI C Jurchen. (though as he has used it I wnder if it's a copy of an earlier work that I'm not aware of)
The third The image from the Chinese picture of XII century is new to me.
The fourth The miniature is taken from ancient Chinese figure (on « Саньцай Тухуй) is also new to me.
The fith The miniature is taken from ancient Chinese figure (on Фавье) the Emperor in very traditional pose I know.
The last The image from a wall list in чжурчжэньской to a tomb in northeast Peoples Republic of China I've seen other drawings of, any references to the tomb it come from?

all very useful thanks............

Yes, he prepared the fragments for publishing and even promised me to send some scans of originals (but it was regarding the Qing paintings mostly). But then he went to excavations and now I am waiting for his coming back.

I see, you use the Translator Let me translate it again:

fragment of a miniature of Jin era «Palace Guards is going to campaign … »

The fragment from the Chinese picture «Hunting of Liao emperor" from a later painting represents of Nuzhen horse-hunters contemporary to the artist. - probably, it wasdone in Liao era, but was re-painted during Jin. I am to verify it.

The miniature is taken from ancient Chinese encyclopaidea "Sanqai tuhui" - beginning of XVII century.

The image from a wall painting of Jin era tomb in northeast of PRC - I am to verify it with Leonid.

All data could be verified but in some time later as I can not contact him directly.

Best regards,

Alexey.

No worry, archeologist are inevitably totally un-contactable when on digs....

http://www.nsu.ru/aw/resource.do?id=272

is that one a woman? a eunich?

Not exactly.....

The Emperor is depicted clean shaven and dressed as a tomb guardian because he is defending the Empire... It's a pose seen in paintings and figures of several Emperors. A pure Chinese style.

Altaica Militarica.

Could you link me to the pages on Song warriors? I'm finding it hard to differentiate between them and the Jurchens.

Thanks.

I too would be interested in this.

Thanks

http://www.nsu.ru/aw/resource.do?id=48

http://www.nsu.ru/aw/resource.do?id=37

http://www.nsu.ru/aw/resource.do?id=73

http://www.nsu.ru/aw/resource.do?id=75

http://www.nsu.ru/aw/resource.do?id=76

http://www.nsu.ru/aw/resource.do?id=78

http://www.nsu.ru/aw/resource.do?id=74

http://www.nsu.ru/aw/catalog.do?cid=32

http://www.nsu.ru/aw/resource.do?id=135 - See fig. #2

http://www.nsu.ru/aw/catalog.do?cid=57

In case of links to catalog it means you may look through the massive of Song armour and pictures.

Best regards,

Alexey.

Excellent, thank you.

http://www.nsu.ru/aw/resource.do?id=48
http://www.nsu.ru/aw/resource.do?id=53

Alexey,

What are they saying about these depictions?

Cheers

Chris

Very nice.
Especially the horse armor pictures.

Shruite 7.

Can I ask where do you get that pic of brigadine armor?
Can you provide a link to me?

Thanks....

I don't remember where I found the pic. I wish I could remember because I don't remember what else was on that website and I wouldn't mind checking it out again. When I saw it, I downloaded it onto my laptop then posted it to the forum. Since then I've deleted it from my laptop.

Below is the link to the picture here on chf.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...opic=6516&st=45

Cheers