Dear collegues,

I wonder if anybody have the exact inormation about barrelled small fire-arms in Song-Yuan periods. Once Thomas Chen mentioned that "kuaiqiang" was widely spread in China in the end of Yuan. but he is like a ghost I could never catch him to ask him a question (

In the end of Yuan the gunpowder technology was transferred to Korea by former Yuan minister and already in 1410-s Koreans have a division of 5000 men with barrelled fire-arms called "chongtong" or "qiangtong" in Chinese. That weapon fired small arrows and was used by soldiers in the 2 row in the linear batle formation (the 1 row was of shield-bearers).

What's about the situation with the similar weapon in Song-Yuan (probably early Ming) in China?

Can anybody help me in respect of exact datas, facts, links, images etc.?

Best regards,

Alexey.

I found a website with pictures of the "chongtong" but for some reason it won't display

Here is a thread that may help: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=422

Another: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=964

And http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=608

I recently bought a book in Chinese by Liu Xu, an expert on the history of Chinese firearms and gunpowder. However, I don't know if it's available outside China. Title: Zhongguo Gudai Huoyao Huoqi Shi (History of Ancient Chinese Gunpowder and Firearms).



Thomas divides his time between CHF, the Sword Forum, his website, and his books, so it's hard to catch him online. It's a good thing I can get him on the phone I'll try asking him to come in and address your questions.

A picture of the Korean "Chongtong"

Looks like grenade launchers today...

Does anyone know what size the largest Chinese cannons were before European influence?

Let me see - the largest one was "jiangjun pao". It was muzzle loaded canon with caliber of appr. 120 mm. It was a little bit akin of old type arrow throwing cannons (like on photos above) as it had belts of iron alonside the barrel. It was used in 1620-s alongside the Great Wall against manchu troops. Then it was replaced by European style "hongyi pao" (since 1626).

Best regards,

Alexey.

Thomas' sites are great! Thanks to him a lot. But on his site he invites everybody to contact him directly by mail and then ...

I would be very grateful if you call him. Thank you a lot.

Best regards,

Alexey.

Hmm...interesting information. Unfortunate that english sources on Chinese firearms are so hard to come by

Actually, do you know how I got to know Thomas? By e-mailing him through his website! So be patient, he may still send you a reply...

I hope But the useful interactive could be so fruitful!

Regarding the early era of hand fire-arms - I have read the translation of a Ming document by Father Yakinf (Russian Orientalist, XIX) that the first large detachements equal to even a brigade of fire-arms wielded men were formed in Ming after Jiaozhi war. When did that war take place? According to the name it was a war against Vietanmeses, but in the beginning of XVI century China had no wars with Vietnam. Does it mean it took place in the beginning of XV century during Ming Chengzu reign?

Best regards,

Alexey.

Haven't you heard he's busy chasing girls these days?

Would it be comparable in size to this?

There were 4 main calibers of these Korean cannons - Tian (179,2 mm), Di (160 mm.), Xuan (66,88 mm.), Huang (64,64 mm.). But real artefacts often violate these figures.

"Dai Jiangjun pao" has the caliber of 100 mm. judging by the Chinese artefact from Museum of Korean Army in Seoul. But I think there were a lot of other calibers for this type of cannons as craftsmen did not stick to the regulations strictly.

Best regards,

Alexey.

Was the "chongtong" a Chinese or Korean invention?

I think it is Chinese idea as the "huoqiang" were used in Song dynasty. The "chongtong" design is too simple and I thinkk this type of small fire-arm was developed in the end of Yuan as the method of gunpowder production was borrowed by Koreans from a minister of former Yuan dynasty.

Best regards,

Alexey.

that cannon looks like an islamic invention called lantaka. it exactly just the same but its ammunition uses cannonballs instead of spears, & it is made out of bronze.

So the Chongtong was initially developed in China, and later transferred to Korea.... A few questions.

1.Do you know of the first reference to the Chongtong in history? is the reference from a Chinese or Korean source?

2.What are the advantages and disadvantages of giant metal tipped arrows compared to solid ball ammunition?

3.I've heard the Koreans used the chongtong extensively. What was the situation in Ming China?

4.Were Korean and Chinese cannons comparable in calibre?

Your help would be greatly appreciated.

One more question.

1. Could you give me some information on the following artillery pieces, mentioned by Kenneth Swope?

Wei Yuan Pao (great distance cannon)

Crouching tiger cannon(Hu dun pao)

Anyone?

aren't these catapults rather than cannon ?

The hu dun pao refers to both a catapult and a cannon. A picture of the Hu Dun Pao

Yup. I was going to post a painting of the Hudun Pao (cannon) in action but my computer is now down and can't access the HD.

Don't you mean this one?

http://www.ramus.ru/forum_alt/viewtopic.php?t=146

It is a depiction of the battle between Qing troops of Zhao Hui & Fu De against Uighur leaders Burhan-ad-Din & Khoja Jahan in vicinity of the Lake of Yeshilkul, Eastern Pamir (1759).