I have recently become interested in the Eight Array Formation (the battle formation that Zhuge Liang used). I have done some research (from various sources - including this forum) but upon seeing the deployment diagram, I have been thinking how does it really work. I'd imagine this "ultimate formation" was supposed to surround the enemy without them even knowing. I have some ideas that I'd like to discuss but they have their difficulties (not impossible) to carry out.

I then traced that Kong Ming derived this formation from the Eight Array Maze.
So I thought if I were to study the Maze, then I might be able to figure out how/why he derived his formation from the Maze.

From SGYY, the maze that bottled up Lu Xun was described as having doors and door sills which I think does not make sense. I managed to understand why the combination is inexhaustible (traced it back to Yi Jing trigrams) but I'm still trying to figure out the implementation aspect of such a Maze. I don't think the boulders moved by itself as describe in SGYY.

Geez, sorry for the long post... I hope I'm not taking this Eight Array thing too seriously. Anyone with info on the maze or formation will be highly appreciated!

THANKS!

Here is a good chinese article on Bagua (8 Array) formation 八卦阵

http://www.hispeed.com.cn/Forum/ReadPost.asp?PostID=824585

Anyone care to translate it into english?

.. it says that 8 array formation wasn't invented by Zhugeliang. It already appeared before his time. Sun Tzu also had 8 array formation.

Thanks General Zhaoyun for moving the thread to the right place.

Yeah I'm aware that it wasn't invented by Zhuge Liang but I believe he had incorporated flexibility or something into it. From my research, the original Eight Array Formation itself is a very defensive formation without the intent to encircle / trap the enemy.

From my understanding, the formation starts off as a normal Eight Array Formation and once the enemy engages, it will change/move/transform and ends up surrounded the enemy. This is also consistent with the Eight Array Maze which is said to be capable of inexhaustible permutations. So is Yi Jing and he uses the representations of Yi Jing in his formation.

That's why I became so interested to find out more about this. And oh, if someone could translate the page that ZhaoYun posted, it will be much appreciated. What happened to Yun?

Please people, let me know your opinion!!!!

Thanks.

The original modified version of the old Eight Array formation devised by Zhuge Liang was apparently a defensive wagon laager (i.e. circle of horse wagons) of a complex multi-layered format, manned by men with heavy multi-bolt crossbows. It was designed to counter the Wei superiority in cavalry and enhance the survivability of Shu-Han infantry in the field.

The evidence for this is the Jin Shu record of the Western Jin general Ma Long's use of the Eight Array formation against rebel Xianbei cavalry in the 270s. His men used heavy crossbows, covered wagons (pianxiang che), and an outer ring of anti-cavalry obstacles (lujiao, literally 'deer's antlers') to repel the cavalry "according to the Eight Array diagram". This idea was much later adopted by General Qi Jiguang of the Ming, who used pianxiang che equipped with cannon and firearms to counter the cavalry of the Mongols.

Unfortunately, the Eight Array formation later became mysticised by scholars who had no understanding of warfare, and all kinds of Daoist ideas were brought in. The different parts of the formation now looked like constellations with no practical value on the battlefield, and it was believed that they would influence the battle through supernatural factors like 'qi'. A classic example of fanciful reconstructions of the Eight Array formation is that by Lan Zhang 藍章 of the Ming dynasty:

http://www.agent-m.net/Book/O-1-049-1.htm#...#36299;〉

I'd love to translate all this, but I'm afraid I simply don't have the time. Anyone else able to help?

General Zy and Yun,

Good reading material.

Thanks!

Eight Array Maze & Formation

perviously i has an article on this after studying for many mths i finally know how this works...its can be true to bottle up to 100.000 people in the maze depending on the location..

u can try to look of websites under sight seeing on yangtze..

this is the most famous maze..beside this zhuge liang also setup 1 at his home town, another 1 at xichun to prevent wu from invading, another 1 was in chengdu..

only 1 was put to good use...

this maze is base on eight digrams (ba qua) repeling each other eg..for normal maze to enter life gate will bring u out but this is the death gate that u lead u out..animlas on the maze meant the same way...what i reacall is there is bird, snake, tiger

the heap of stones are arrange in the ways that of a moving ba qua..if u notice that u turn the inner heaps of stones n the outer layer it forms a cycle that is never ending...ttl there are 64 heaps of stones..

http://www.yangtze.com/gallery/scenery/eightfm.html

this is the website that i was talking about.but tt bad it had been taken away...

any bro got the pic of this maze pls post it

i wish to see it again...too bad i did not keep it the other time..

Hm. I think this might count upon the myths Yun was talking about, actually. Maybe Yun can clarify?

I thought this topic was long dead

Yeah, I know about that one in Fishbelly creek - wish I could see it myself one day.
Anyway, squallxx you haven't really explained much about its mechanism.
Do you also have information on all its gates?

The Maze.
For what it's worth, I'm thinking that the maze itself is static meaning it doesn't change like what the novel described. Since there are so many combinations, the person who employs it may simply choose which combinations he/she wants to use to create the maze. Imagine, a really really big place, with 64 main boulders/pillars and others to block certain paths. You can get very confused and trapped inside very quickly and easily without its boulders switching positions and all.

The Formation.
I have nothing much to add. The explanations that Yun gave about it being an anti-cavalry formation makes sense. Anyway, into some experiments I recently played Shogun TotalWar again and I was bored, so I deployed my troops according to the Eight Array Formation - more or less. It looks like a big, loose formation but I can feel that it is actually one, coherent formation. The basic strategy is move the inner and central divisions to engage the enemy and the outer divisions encircle the enemy. I used this tactic and formation in a few of battles (vs AI of course) and trashed the AI without losing too many on my side (AI lost 1000 men and I barely lost 100 or so but not perfect everytime though).

Well, it's just a simulator and hey I was bored. But I have seen it for myself. I can basically conclude that there are also many factors that one has to consider when using this formation and that includes terrain, unit composition and most importantly, your enemy disposition. Maybe that partly explains why (if it's so in the history) Zhuge Liang only used it once.

Vince

can u show a daigram of how it works i play rome total war too.

Yes, can somebody show how the diagram works?

Thanks.

The "Eightfold Division of Formations" as reconstructed by Chang Chen-tse "Sun Pin ping-fa chiao-li". Peking (1984) 68-71


As reconstructed by Hsu P'ei-ken & Wei Ju-lin. Sun Pin ping-fa chu-shih. Taipei: Li-ming wn-hua shih-yeh kung-szu, 1976 (please excuse the Wade-Giles romanization )


From Sun Bin bingfa Chapter 7: the eightfold division of formations
Master Sun Bin said: "When putting the eightfold division of formations into battle operation, turn to account whatever advantages the terrain permits and adapt the formation to meet these conditions. Divid your main body in three with each of these detachments having a vanguard force and each having a rear support. All should wait for the order before moving. Commit one detachment to the fray while holding the other two in reserve. Use one detachment to actually assault the enemy and rein in the other two. When the enemy is weak and in disarray, commit your select shock troops to gain a quick advantage. But where he is strong and in well-ordered formation, commit your weaker troops first to bait him. Divide the chariots and cavalry that will be used in combat into three detachments: one on either flank and one at the rear. On flat and easy ground, make greater use of the war chariot; on rugged terrain use more cavalry; on terrain that is sher and closes in on both sides, use more crossbowmen. Taking into account both the rugged and the easy terrain, you must distinguish between safe ground that affords escape and terrain that is a death trap. And you must attack the enemy caught in the death trap from the safe ground you occupy."

I know I probably won't get any sympathy for this, but I can't read Chinese. So if there is anyway to get links on this formation in English it would be awesome and greatly appreciated. I'm trying to learn Chinese guys, but I think I'll be a very very old man before I start to get a grip on it. I think I'll just go on Google and look up the formation, but I'm always afraid of Google. Because the last time I tried it I got a Trojan on my computer. Good thing my firewall and antivirus took care of it. So I appreciate any help I can get. I'm gonna try it on my Shogun Total War, see how effective it is.

I don't quite understand why it's called 'bagua 八卦" (8 array maze). Does the formation has something to do with the "Dao" of formation and harnessing a pattern similar to the Bagua in I-Ching (daoism)?

〈八陣合變圖說敘〉

1. 天覆陣贊

天陣十六，外方內圓。四為風揚，其形象天。為陣之主，為兵之先。善用三軍，其形不偏。


2. 地載陣贊

地陣十二，其形正方。雲主四角，冲敵難當。其體莫測，動用無窮。獨立不可，配之於陽。


3. 風揚陣贊

風無正形，附之於天。變而為蛇，其意漸玄。風能鼓物，萬物撓焉。蛇能為繞，三軍懼焉。


4. 雲垂陣贊

雲附於地，始則無形。變為翔鳥，其狀乃成。鳥能突擊，雲能晦冥。千變萬化，金革之聲。


5. 龍飛陣贊

天地後衝，龍變其中。有爪有足，有背有胸。潛則不測，動則無窮。陣形赫然，象名為龍。


6. 虎翼陣贊

天地前衝，變為虎翼。伏虎將搏，盛其威力。淮陰用之，變為無極。垓下之會，魯公莫測。


7. 鳥翔陣贊

鷙鳥將摶，必先翱翔。勢凌霄漢，飛禽伏藏。審之而下，必有中傷。一夫突擊，三軍莫當。


8. 蛇蟠陣贊

風為蛇蟠，附天成形。勢能圍遶，性能屈伸。四奇之中，與虎為鄰。後變常山，首尾相因。

The Maze of Eight Array (八阵图), tracing its dichotomy

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...ic=7021&hl=

I read this thread last week, and i think the answer of the Maze is in its dichotomy.
And i try to trace out the dichotomy.

Can you tell us more about its dichotomy?

(1) Opposite directions (in dichotomies):

東 <-> 西
北 <-> 南
東北 <-> 西南
西北 <-> 東南

(2) Opposite Space (in dichotomies):

左 <-> 右
前 <-> 后
天 <-> 地

(3) Opposite Functions (in dichotomy):

地軸 => 載
天衝 => 覆

and hence 天 覆 <-> 地 載

(A) The Maze of 8 Arrays deploys its army to meet two basic FUNCTIONs:

- 覆 - Aggressive in nature
- 載 - Defensive in nature



(B:) The deployment of army is dictated by two basic principles:

(1) The consideration of SPACE qualities:

1.1) Heaven-related
e.g. 附之於天

1.2) Earth-related
e.g. 附於地

1.3) or in a more grey areas between the Heaven and Earth - 天地後衝 / 天地前衝


(2) The consideration of DIRECTIONs

2.1) 東北 -- 西南 (along NE-SW axis as reference)

2.2) 西北 -- 東南 (along NW-SE axis as reference)

2.3) Characterized by 风 and 云.

3. 風揚陣贊

風無正形，附之於天。變而為蛇，其意漸玄。風能鼓物，萬物撓焉。蛇能為繞，三軍懼焉。


4. 雲垂陣贊

雲附於地，始則無形。變為翔鳥，其狀乃成。鳥能突擊，雲能晦冥。千變萬化，金革之聲。




5. 龍飛陣贊

天地後衝，龍變其中。有爪有足，有背有胸。潛則不測，動則無窮。陣形赫然，象名為龍。


6. 虎翼陣贊

天地前衝，變為虎翼。伏虎將搏，盛其威力。淮陰用之，變為無極。垓下之會，魯公莫測。




7. 鳥翔陣贊

鷙鳥將摶，必先翱翔。勢凌霄漢，飛禽伏藏。審之而下，必有中傷。一夫突擊，三軍莫當。


8. 蛇蟠陣贊

風為蛇蟠，附天成形。勢能圍遶，性能屈伸。四奇之中，與虎為鄰。後變常山，首尾相因。

Must we go into such confusing talk?

I think that it's agreed that there are no magical properties historically present in that formation.

What magical properties you meant?
Or don't simply assume.

All these so called "magical properties" come from this link:

http://www.agent-m.net/Book/O-1-049-1.htm#...#36299;〉

I read this from post#4 by Yun.


It is OK if you don't understand Chinese.
But don't call this magics just because you do not understand.
It is a shame to the forum.

This isn't a question of shame or no shame to the forum, or whether or not I am able to read the link. It's a question on how accurate or factual your stance is.

And I'm rather sure that Yun would not quite appreciate being used to support what the link said. Here was what he said:



My emphasis in bold. What you quoted by Yun was diced from his post, and the meaning is completely changed. Yun himself said that the reconstruction is merely fanciful, with Lan Zhang being among these people who had no understanding of warfare and attributed these strange Daoist mysticisms to the formation. How can you then take this source of dubious credibility and use it to support the belief that some sort of "dichotomy" lent the formation invincible powers? At present, what you say ignores virtually everything about the concrete and practical nature of warfare, troops, and combat and leaves the reader wondering the point of such a thing. Are we to believe it wins battles itself based on its qi flow and dichotomy? Show me how this works in combat. How do you apply this "dichotomy"? Many of your posts suffer from this same pseudoscientific affliction: a lot of Yijing, and yet you hardly ever explain in concrete terms or demonstrate exactly how to apply it. If this cannot be achieved, then for all I know, we can analyze the formation based on the pseudoscience of palmistry too; yet we'd be no closer to actually demonstrating how these concepts from palmistry demonstrate military value.

Now if you can find anything about this reconstruction that supports how this would be practical for battlefield usage, or if you can translate the mysticism into concrete and practical use, then I will be more inclined to scale up my opinion of your posts. Unless you can back it up with why this would actually work (rather than simply posting with a lot of rather esoteric Daoist concepts), it remains only mystique of dubious value to the discussion.

LYY, while I should not deny you the right or freedom to believe in the special efficacy of the formations formulated by Lan Zhang, I have to make it clear (lest others be misled) that Lan Zhang's formations really have nothing to do with Zhuge Liang. The attribution of these formations to Zhuge Liang by Lan Zhang is false, but is certainly not a unique case. There is a long tradition in China of giving innovations prestige by attributing them to famous ancients.

I think YZB was too impatient with you, and that is largely a problem of different worldviews. Your worldview revolves around yin/yang and qi, while YZB's worldview is an essentially materialist and 'scientific' one (not unlike what the PRC officially espouses, despite the fact that yin/yang and qi concepts were never truly rejected by the people). I personally incline towards YZB's approach when it comes to warfare, i.e. that qi plays little or no role in determining the outcome of a battle or effectivenes of an army, but I am aware that this approach was not traditionally the norm in Chinese military thought or martial arts until the 20th century.

Now, as to your analysis of Lan Zhang's eight-array formations. I think it goes without saying that any army combines both offensive and defensive functions, and that it has to respond to contingencies on both the left and right flank, or in both the front and the rear. Such dichotomies are a commonplace of warfare and are therefore characteristic of any formation or deployment - not just the eight-array formations. What I would like you to explain more fully and simply (i.e. in a way that anyone can understand) is how the use of space can be either heaven-related or earth-related. That 'dichotomy' might be the only one that is really creative among the three that you postulated.

Can you point to (if any) sources that describe at what level of the army were the formations applied? The entire army (how many men?) A division, or smaller?

Ma Long had an army of 3,500 specially picked men, selected for their ability to draw and arm heavy crossbows and for their marksmanship. With these, and the use of the wagon laager formation, he was able to defeat cavalry said to number in tens of thousands. He also had some help from magnets which were used to wreak havoc with the iron/steel armour of the cavalry, while his own men wore rhino-hide armour to avoid the same problem.

Agreed, however it is also important to understand that these world/cultural views are not necessarily antagonistic nor is one 'right' or the other 'wrong'. All evolved to allow their users to relate to the world in a way that made sense to them.

Traditionally western sciences reject other sciences as 'primitive' and based on mysticism and therefore incorrect. They fail to take into consideration that many of the applications of those belief systems have practical and survivalist value to the original society they belong to. The Bushmen uses mysticism to locate sources of water (looked from western eyes it is a different story), the indian use Chakra to explain about energies within their body allowing their mystics to perform feats that can still astound a western audience, the chinese use the theory of qi to explain about and cure illnesses of the body (they worked, otherwise it would not have lasted for so long), native Americans used their herbs for healing and other uses, mysticism involved as well but no less effective, even the Greeks, supposedly the originators of western civilisation, had their view on how the body works and the various humours that affect their body. They all worked in their own fashion and allowed those cultures to survive. Were they all absolutely 'correct'? No, but then neither is Newton's Three Laws of motion which is not completely correct but is good enough for us to calculate how to get a man to the Moon.

When writing about such matters our use of phrases reveals interesting concepts in our world views. Take for example the use of the word, 'supernatural'. What does it actually mean? Where does the natural end, and the supernatural begin? This term as it is currently used is a specific invention of post renaissance Europe when the Age of Reason came about, and free-thinkers and atheism found resurgence, and the 'scientific' method came to the fore. it then became necessary to classify some matters as 'supernatural' with the idea being that it is beyond the province of 'science' (the science of those rational men that is) To the Chinese when they use 'qi', it is no more supernatural than gravity. It is part of how they see and relate to the world.

Having digressed right from the start let's sort of get back to topic. While I don't understand LYY's explanation, 'qi' when used in describing the battlefield and formations can easily be thought of as how fluid and flowing they are or where the strong 'qi' or weak 'qi' is. Spatial awareness is an important concept on the battlefield, you have to understand where your troops are, might be, or will be if the enemy is here, there or forcing down on top of you. A formation with good 'qi' may thus have the attributes of good communication channels, strategic spaces for changes and the troops don't get into each other's way, etc.

I personally don't (and can't) see battlefields or formations in this manner but I think it would be interesting and perhaps we can even learn something of how the ancients think if we can try to envision it from their point of view.

Thanks,

this is interesting the magnets must have been very powerful to have an effect.

(1) I started a new thread to decode the "formation" (or whatever it is called) to trace out the Basic dichotomy. This is my basic idea.
Someone removed the thread and combined with this original thread.

(2) YZB' approach?
No problem with me.

(3) Lan Zhang's formations really have nothing to do with Zhuge Liang
I have no problem with this statement either.
My intent is to trace out the basic dichotomy (which i haven't achieved at this point of time).

(4) Finally, i am NOT a scholar.

And, i never use the term "qi" in this thread, or did I?

Perhaps we misunderstood your explanations. Would you mind explaining to us more clearly how you would interpret the functions of the heaven, earth, wind, cloud, tiger, dragon, bird, and snake formations described by Lan Zhang?

1. What kind of situation is each of these formations designed for? (e.g. offensive or defensive)
2. Is there a sequence of transformations from one formation to another?
3. Which are 'heaven-related' and which are 'earth-related'?

As far as possible, without making reference to qi or the interaction of yin and yang.



You are too modest. Having seen your sophisticated analyses of the yijing and its applicability to various questions, I believe you certainly are a scholar. Maybe what you are trying to say is that you are not a scholar of military theory? If so, neither am I. However, that should not stop us from taking your dichotomy-based analysis of Lan Zhang's formations seriously. If, as you say, you haven't yet been able to trace out the 'basic dichotomy', perhaps our discussions here may help you get nearer to that.

(1) The whole purpose of tracing the Basic dichotomy is to answer your question#1,2 and 3.

(2) After look through the various transformation, i come to notice 天覆陣 and 地載陣 are probably two terminals amidst a sequence of transformations of 风云龙虎鳥蛇.
It is the starting point where i decide to start decoding.

(That alone takes few day of iterations in sleep mode - the usual way i start a thread.)


(3) Put aside the historical facts for a while, what you will do as a general, when Zhuge Liang put up his formations before your eyes, as you turn back the clock to the times of the Three Kingdom?

I am not humble.
It is not a scholar's job.
It is a riddle to break ...

I hope we will come to see this clearly as you explain further.



That looks promising! Do continue your efforts.



My tentative thoughts (and not based on any practical experience):

Enemy has a stronger defensive formation - I encircle and cut off without attacking
Enemy has a weaker defensive formation - I probe, harass, and disorient, then attack weaker flank with full force
Enemy has a weaker offensive formation - I seek superior ground and engage head-on, while using flanking or reserve units as advantage
Enemy has a stronger offensive formation - I seek superior ground (preferably fortified) and defend

And respond accordingly as the enemy formation changes.

天作棋盘星作子，日月争光
　　
雷为战鼓电为旗，风云际会