Anyone know where to buy one and what kind I should get? I want to learn to shoot it as well and I read somewhere on this site that they sell smaller versions for beginners. Will I have to take classes to learn to shoot it or will trial and error suffice? Any help is much appreciated.

Depends on the type of bow you want. If you want a true-blue Chinese traditional recurve bow, you'll have to get it from Beijing. Only one authentic tradional chinese bow maker left in the world.

If you're a beginner, get a simple modern recurve. Bow prices can range anything from a USD100 to 10,000. I would suggest a relatively cheap Korean recurve with wooden stock as your first bow. Try Samick as they make very good bows. The basic wooden recurves don't cost that much.

Depending on which country you live in, you'll need to check to see if you need a license to buy and own a bow as they are considered dangerous weapons. You can most certainly learn how to shoot on your own but you'll need to first read-up on the proper shooting techniques, not so much so that you can hit targets, but rather so you won't injure yourself. Bows can be dangerous if you don't use them properly as the potential energy stored in the bowstring when drawn can snap fingers or give you serious abrasions on your bow arm, or you may lose an eye if you don't know how to string a bow properly. All this is of course on top of the fact that you may hit someone accidentally with your arrow.

If you give me your e-mail, I'll send you a few basic files on proper bow handling and shooting though you'll still need to be very careful.

I would suggest you find a proper place to practice and start with a "light" bow. Don't try bows in the draw weights you read in the posts here as they are military archer range draw weights. Go with something in the 20-35lb range at the most. Good enough for shooting the standard 30m to a maximum of 90m range in olympic competition though obviously if you have a lighter bow, you'll need more arc to hit further targets. So a heavier bow would allow more level shooting for further ranges but if you've never shot a bow before, more likely than not, you won't have developed the set of muscles in your arms needed to draw the heavier bows. You'll need to train your muscles up for that.

You'll also need to know your drawlength, based on the length of your arm to get the right height of bow for you.

Hope that helps.

Well I was hoping for a traditional Chinese bow but knowing this, I probably won't be able to obtain one until much much later



Would you mind providing a few links so I have an idea of what bow to get? I googled (ok, yahooed) Samick, they're an Australian company correct? I live in the U.S. Do they ship that far?



k98er@hotmail.com



Yeah, I'm only 16 and not very active. Usually the only exercise I get is walking around school.



much, thanks a lot

Ok, a quick reply before I go for lunch. Will send you the files after my tummy is taken care of.

Samick is Korean though they just opened a production plant in China.

Yeah, the Koreans seem to be the people who produce recurves for the world market.
Having a steady enough arm for precise point targeting is a hard thing....even just holding the bow perfectly still without drawing it is impossible really due to muscular micro-movements.
Try even holding out your thumb at arm length side-on and aim your eye accross it and you will see slight movement.
Its good fun though! I set some targets out to 60m so when I hit it I was quite satisfied. I probably wont repeat it without dozens of attempts, but it was enough to keep me trying. 32lb seems to drop arrows in a cluster at this range well enough but a single man could probably stand still and wait for me to use up my arrows with a fair chance of not being hit!
Still, only had it one week so far.
Lovely things, even if a rifle is much more consistent.
(I hope to get a second hand 150lb crossbow, or a new 100lb crossbow for comparison shortly).

Jieming..feel free to e-mail me some pointers too! You have my address.

i'm currently collecting materials to build my own Chinese recurve bow in the spring.

Chinese recurve bows changed constantly throughout history. Shang dynasty recurves were extremely long with an asymetrical design while Tang recurves were non-static and only around 45 inches to 50 inches long.

the one i'm making is a non static recurve. about 50 inches long. i was thinking of making one closer to a Han dynasty design with static tips but i figure the bow is hard enough without trying to attach extra wooden limb extentions

may i ask what purpose do you want one for? shooting or just collection?

if you want one for shooting. Csaba Grózer makes many bows that can pass for different Chinese bows of various dynsaties, he also makes a Ming/Qing era Static recurves

i know a place that makes Chinese recurves 100% to the design specifications of Ming/Qing bows but he charges 2,300 dollars and you have to wait two years

oh, just a little sniggle about terminology. "composite" can refer to any bow that is simply made out of more than one material. recurve bow is the more proper term

This is a picture of my 60 pound "Mongol" recurve, for all intents and purposes, could pass for a Chinese recurve

both, but mostly shooting



eh, being an unemployed teenager, I can't afford to spend more than 200 dollars on a bow



oh, I'll remember that next time



looks pretty cool

Ok, I'm reposting a part of my e-mail to Kenneth on the advantage of the thumb draw over the 3-fingered draw based on my own thoughts though I myself still can't master the thumbdraw yet and still shoot mainly with the 3-fingered draw.

"The thumb draw is intuitive actually.

Pick anyone who's never been taught archery and/or
never seen the proper draw and give him/her a bow.
He/she will draw the string with thumb and either 1 or
two fingers... either that or just grab the string
with all 4 fingers! hahahahaha

Yeah, it's pretty hard to learn. Thumbs are weak.
The advantage in the thumb draw is that you can use
shorter recurve bows ie. mounted archery. The
European 3 finger draw doesn't work for short bows
like the mongol bow and is only useable for longer
recurves or the longbow. Quite simple really. Your
fingers will get pinched by the string the shorter the
bow gets. The shorter bow also becomes more sensitive
to the angle of your bowstring so you'll want less of
an inbalance in the top and bottom parts of the string
above and below your drawing hand. Just imagine the
extreme with a really ridiculously short bow, your
fingers will get really pinched and the imbalance in
the bowstring would cause the arrow to fly upward
because there is just that extra bit of string on the
lower portion from the straighter part due to having 2
fingers below compared to just 1 above your arrow."

if your budget is 200 dollars. you might want to think something like a modern korean bow. that is, if you don't mind the small size (nothing bigger than 45 inches) and low draw weight (which is relative i guess, i consider anything under 60 to be "light" but thats because one of my bows 110 pounds)

my girlfriend uses a modern korean bow. for what it is, its good for beginners

try e-bay or a local equivalent. You might be able to get a kit (arrows & quiver etc.) for 1/2 or 1/3 the price in auction.
there are second hand ones about and the Korean style recurve has replacement arms & parts availible if need be.
Just check condition before bidding.

also

despite the fact that thumb rings and recurve bows are synonymous with each other (both came into existence around the same time in Shang China)

i do not recommend using a thumb ring in the beginning. it creates alot of horrible habits i've seen in beginner archers and makes nocking the arrows extremely awkward (for beginners that is)

in fact, after your thumb gets accustomed to pain. alot of archers stop using the thumb ring altogether

i personally have not used a thumb ring in two years and i use thumb draws (the "Chinese " draw and "Mongol" draw) exclusively

Tao,
Any way you can post illustrations or pictures of thumb rings being used ? I've been pondering how one uses a thumb ring, and it just sounds very awkward to me. I've always regarded the three finger draw as the only way to draw a bow. I never heard of a thumb ring or thumb draw until I visited this board.
I didn't know Chinese used composite bows. What kind of materials did they (we) use ? I know the Mongolian bow is a combo of wood and animal horn because lumber is so scarce in the steppes.
In martial arts one of the basic ways to disable someone is to grab the thumb and break it, so I regard the thumb as a major achilles heel. Whoever thought of using it to draw a bow was either a sadist or a genius. What advantages does a thumb draw have anyway ?

Boarhuntr

Read my post above on the advantage of the thumbdraw.

some scholars credit Shang China for inventing it (the recurve bow i mean)

as far as i'm concerned, studying Chinese culture without studying the history of Chinese archery is like studying western civ and skipping Rome.

heres a Shang era pictograph of a recurve bow



Also, of all the places that used recurve bows, China is probably the easiest place to build one as far as resources go (where else are you going to find horn, woodcore, sinew and fish glue within a mile radius of each other).

Ancient Chinese archers also drew the heaviest bows. The Tang archery exam had a horse archery syllabus where you had to shoot a 92.5 pound (around 42 KG) at gallop

i suggest reading this book



Chinese Archery by Stephen Selby (closest thing to a white hero China will have along with John Rabe)

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Liang Jieming's post on thumb draws is excellent, you should read that

the idea that the three finger Euro draw is superior is just Eurocentrism (just like the idea that the long bow is a match for a recurve)

Wouldn't the longbow be about the same as a recurve? They both had about the same draw weight.

draw weight is not decided by a type of bow.

a long bow depends on its length for power because unstrung, it looks like a stick

a recurve bow is curved in the opposite direction of the strung position when it is unstrung meaning you could have a short bow with a lot of power

on average, recurve bows had heavier draws. Shang era bows are thought to be up to 160 pounds. the heaviest long bow was about 100 and even that was rare

Lol very funny . Does these apply with modern bows that have wheels/pullys? And which one does the Japanese longbow apply to?

the bows with pulleys are compound bows. Japanese Yumi are long bows with recurve tips

what was so funny about what i said? a long bow does depend on its length and when unstrung, its essentially a stick shape

a recurve bow unstrung looks like a C with the limbs facing the opposite direction of what it would be strung allowing the bow to be shorter but extremely powerful

these differences are not superficial

From my days living in S. Korea, I recall that when you string a recurve bow you have to straddle the bow and bend in back. Man, that's a lot of potential energy waiting to smack you in the face if you do it wrong.
Mongolian bows are made w/ wood and animal horn , due to wood being scarce on the grasslands. From what I've seen they are a lot shorter than longbows that the Europeans used. I read that Mongolian bows had almost twice the distance than European longbows, that is why the Mongols were such fearsome fighters, because their arrows had much longer range than the Russians had.
Tao, what is average weight of a Mongol bow ? Did the Mongol soldier use any type of finger protection or glove to draw the bow ? How about the Chinese soldier ?

Boarhuntr

These figures would bve reversed depending on the source (or bias). Mongolian bow exponents put mongol bows at 90lb or more and a longbow at 70lb...to explain its superiority.
In truth longbows based on surving examples and the hoard found on the Mary Rose put them at 90lb-120lb and the Mary Rose reproductions at 150lb.
For the heavy Chinese bows this is at odds with what Stephen Selby emphasised in his writings on ATARN. The heavier bows were made to be heavy for sport only and he says the Chinese believed heavier bows had their disadvantages.
He was putting figures more at about 60lb.
Shang recurve bows are shown in pictograms but the bows themselves havent survived.
During Shang the bow technology still had a way to go as bone arrow points were still being used in the early Shang.
I would be curious to know where the figure for the Shang bows come from, but Selby did say this in an ATARN article;

the construction of recurve bows aren't all that different from each other. horn, woodcore, sinew, fish glue,etc

the main difference depending on climate/place is what kind of horn, what kind of woodcore,etc,etc

i use the step through method to string my bow.

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Kenneth, Selby as far as the draw weight issue is concerned is not completely sure about that.

Selby knows his **** but there have been times he was wrong. (he insisted static tiped recurves did not exist until Ming which is wrong)

this is partly because the preferred draw weight changed from dynasty to dynasty. Most people studying Chinese archery history generally use the Ming as the prime example in which they preferred light bows

this is not true of all dynasties. during the Zhou dynasty, a "good" bow had to have a draw weight heavy enough to fascilitate penetration of 7 layers of toughened leather. quite alot

its true that strength tests on archery examinations would require bows to be heavier than normally used but we have to infer from other information

Tang dynasty horse archery examinations required the archer to be able to shoot a bow of 42 KG of weight which is about 92.5 LBs

while this did not mean this was common in the battlefield.

1. most writings on Chinese archery spoke of the importance of penetration and power as much as accuracy.
2. the Chinese draw itself is essentially a thumb draw fitted for a heavy bow.
3. the accepted traditional method for stringing most Chinese bows requires two people. sometimes three inferring heavy draw weights.

btw, the figure from the Shang bows comes from Shi Zhangru and Ralph D. Sawyer

How did they know the draw weight of a Shang bow? From a reconstruction?

Yeah, that's true. There are other examples.
I am glad to know where the figures come from, but it is worth bearing in mind Sawyer has been wrong as well!
I'll keep an open mind on such things but even some of the primary records at times can be taken with a grain of salt too, i.e the 500kg waist loaded crossbows of Tang.
Nice conclusive figures are often elusive. Thanks for the info though. I'll bear it in mind.

the Shang bow figures are inferred from the sheer length of the Shang bow(which would have created a heavy draw almost naturally)

as well as the fact it was known that Shang Chinese hunted animals like Rhinos which some modern firearms can barely penetrate

references of unusually heavy draw weights are littered throughout Chinese archery literature as well as emphasis on power and penetration

The point about the hunting of Rhino is one I hadnt thought of, but you are quite right!
The central plains had Rhino which were hunted to extinction, and from whose skin the ancient Chinese made armour. They were gone by the Spring & Autumn period.
There must have been something pretty hard hitting if they did hunt with bows, which is how it is depicted. I havent heard any real evidence about how they were hunted, but it is a form of infered evidence if the perception of chariot hunts are correct.
Must have been quite a feat to run them down with chariots. I would be curious about the details.

I think you may also be the right person to appreciate my new bendy Wushu sword I have started training with too! (Ha!). I now believe the light sword is nessecary for beginners to perform all the elaborate movements for any length of time (like the light recurve is better for firing all afternnon than a heavy bow), also when performing an excercise and the sword clipped my ear during one of the spinny spin-wrist excercises I was kind of glad I hadnt been swinging any of my real swords. Even with the light sword the muscles in the forearms can ache afterwards, but I still agree that it is only a tool for the beginner and to rely on such weapons solely just removes any martial goal.
There was a tale Jet Li related to cutting himself during a long competition form in his young days and feeling drenched in sweat but focused so much he didnt realise it was blood and requiring sticthes.
It is a shame there isnt access to real Chinese swordsmanship in my city (or perhaps even country) but I still do really enjoy the Wushu forms I am gradually being shown. I just need to visualise applications for myself based on my other experiences like kata, but I am quite aware modern Wushu trains in many stances and movements that would be positively bad for real combat....even the leg stances and stepping...but yet I enjoy it.
I feel it is OK as long as I dont have any illusions about it.

I will be recieving a real Han era bronze dao in the post this week (I am told)...so will post some real blades for study shortly. My collecting will likely focus more on ancient weapons as time goes by, East Zhou to Han.

I also just won a 150lb crossbow in auction so will have a weapon with a weight comparible to battlefield use to play with but still useful for a beginner. I have found the 32lb recurve great fun but I should get the idea of flat trajectory and hitting power fron this. Even arc fire out to 60m or 90m is good fun with the bow, just a lot of walking backwards and forwards to retrieve arrows.
I better be careful before firing the crossbow in a long range arc for experiment!
I already plan to manufacture some good 6 foot tall plywood targets for my parents farm, and measure out ranges.
In the meantime a watermelon with an apple balanced on top should get me a few laughs!

as far as real Chinese swordsmanship goes

i recommend the Xing Yi boxing system's two handed jian and two hand saber forms.

actually, the "two handed jian" form is actually a one and a half hand form (B****** sword in Euro terminology). it has both one handed and two handed techniques.

i use the form when i spar with people and they always think i'm doing kenjutsu or something

i also practice the Korean-ized version of Qi's Shuang Shou dao. i'm waiting for scott rodell's interpretation for it.

basically, anything associated with "kung fu" and "wu shu". you can forget about Chinese swordsmanship

as far as the boxing systems go, Xing Yi, and Ba Gua have the most authentic, interesting and effective civilian swordsmanship (actually, the Xing Yi shuan shou jian/dao forms could be military in origin)

Thomas Chen will have a much better perspective on the subject. some of my opinions are guided from a bias through a life time of having "Gong Fu" shi fu's who couldn't fence worth a crap.

I decided to put off buying the bow until I've finished my senior project.

archery sharpens the mind

thats why Kong Zi himself emphasized it as an activity for gentleman

if you have any questions, feel free to email me and such