Unfortunately, yeah.

Certainly, there's a fair amount of overlap there.



Why do you feel they wouldn't "get" WC?

To be honest, I don't know how to rate Wing Chun, one way or the other.

Being originally from a fencing background myself, I find the concepts of WC very appealing. The efficient use of movement which seems so characteristic of Wing Chun, for example, is something that Western fencers have also cultivated to a great degree.

In addition, Wing Chun was Lee's base style, and, being a fan of Lee and his ideas, I'll admit to being intrigued by Wing Chun because of that. Lee was a smart guy, and he clearly saw merit in the method.

But then, I see things like Steve Falkner's loss to Sambo/Judo man Igor Zinoviev, at Extreme Fighting Battlecade 2. Falkner gave a WC demo before the fight, and his Wing Chun looked pretty sharp. Then, he ended up succumbing to a textbook rear naked choke.

I also recall the time when a young Emin Boztepe jumped William Cheung at the latter's seminar. Here we had two WC exponents trying to prove to each other who had better Wing Chun, and neither one even ended up using Wing Chun! All they did was roll around on the floor, and it was evident that they had little knowledge of effective groundwork.

So again, I'm not so sure how I feel about it. I guess you could say that there hasn't been much in terms of Wing Chun that I've actually seen work.



So what?

You asked who Bill Paul was, and I told you.

Paul, like Smith, apparently wasn't impressed with Wing Chun. His experience and opinions on the matter are interesting.

As for your disclaimer ("An Olympic level judoka will give EVERY stand up style major problems once into clinching range..."), I have to ask--what, then, is WC's answer to grappling?

I have studied some Chen Tai Chi....and generally of the internal stylists that i've met. I would say the mindset of the people who are drawn to the internal arts are different from those drawn to Wing Chun. It could be different in Asia.

It wasn't me that asked who Bill Paul was.....please don't hit me.

My rhetorical "so what" is that ..... there are many styles that would dominate a Judo player if kept outside of the judo players comfort zone.

What is WC's answer to grappling ? Don't grapple with a grappler.
What is Judo's answer to a vertical punch to the face ? Don't strike with a striker.


I would say Judo guys would give WC stylist the most problems though because the WC close range fighting is almost the same as the judoka's prime range.

As far as lack of success in the MMA ring. Most pure strikers of any style didn't fare well in the early or present MMA matches.

But check out the 2 matches in Pride between Vanderlie Silva (a MMA stylist but known mainly for his Muay Thai) against Judo Olympic Gold Medalist Yoshida.......Yoshida did a good job early on of throwing Silva to the ground with his Judo. But because modern Judo has deleted most of their groundfighting.....he coudln't do much to Silva on the ground. In fact Silva almost caught Yoshida in a nasty Triangle Choke.

After the early rounds, Silva was able to keep it standing and impose his striking....and basically Yoshida had no answer to Silva's Muay Thai.


Check out the other thread

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...opic=1269&st=90

It should be kept in mind that Vanderlei has pretty solid BJJ skills--he's at least a purple belt.

Actually he was awarded his black belt recently. Though many "purists" seem to think it was more of an honorary thing.

Vanderlei is a true MMA....he can fight at all ranges though he specializes in the striking. This is true JKD philosphy. Yoshida, despite being a Olympic Gold Medallists just trains Judo basically. Most fighters training in only one style be it Judo or Wing Chun will not fare too well against a MMA fighter.

DOH!

Please forgive me--I didn't mean to confuse you and Moping.

Becoz he simply stated that WC is almost unknown on the mainland. If he were a native instead of a foreign visitor, there is more credibility to his claim.

Plz don't misunderstand. Not that white/black/hispanic instructors can't teach it any better than Asian instructors. I can't really find a reason how nationality or race can affect one's teachings or determine one's knowledge. It's just that I don't believe his sweeping claim or that he actually did field research to justify that single comment.



I think he's more of a internal/Northern advocate thus probably explains his somewhat biased views. His knowledge on those particular styles does not grant him an automatic authority on all CHinese styles. THere's a lot more to each system than what can be seen or heard from a hear-say. I've been practicing MA for less than a year, but even I know that all styles have their strengths and weaknesses. I just don't think he knows our system well enough for him to say that it's obscure with no structure.

I did not know he received his black belt. Honorary or not, he can take care of himself just fine on the ground.



I agree, but what does this have to do with Bill Paul not being impressed with Wing Chun?

You quoted Smith and used Paul as a reference only because he is suppose to be a Olympic level judoka.....did he ever win Gold in the Olympics ?

Yoshida is a Gold Medalist in Judo in the Olympics and he had no answer to a MMA who is primarily a stiker (most of his wins come from brutal KO's, a few by decision, none by submission). A pure grappler who cannot take a striker to the ground will lose every time against anyone proficient in any strking art be it muay thai or Wing Chun.



Where does it say that Paul is not impressed with Wing Chun ? Paul was obviously impressed enough with Wing Chun to study it .....and maybe learn some strengths and weaknesses of this style.

Using body weight and kicks just means Paul understood Wing Chun's ideal range is in short distance striking....Just like long range punching and kicks would leave a Judoka out of his ideal range.

Maybe Paul was not "impressed" with Judo and sought out Wing Chun to study ? Maybe Smith was not impressed with Tai Chi and sought answers from Hsing Yi and Baqua ? I don't think this is true......just means every art has strengths and weaknesses.

I don't believe so, no. But so what?

And I'm not disagreeing with you on that point.

But the fact remains that Silva has a good ground game. He's known for his striking background, but it's his BJJ that enables him to survive when opponents attempt to take him down or actually manage to do so.

The same goes for every other striker in MMA today--they ALL cross-train in BJJ, wrestling, judo, sambo, etc.

Chuck Lidell is known predominantly as a striker too, but he was also a Div. 1 wrestler in college, and works with BJJ guys like John Lewis.

Bas Rutten came from a hard-style karate/muay Thai background, but learned a decent enough ground game while competing on the PANCRASE circuit.

Cro-Cop is a mega-bad*** kickboxer, but he likewise works with BJJ coaches.

And so on and so on.

So again, I ask you--what does all of the above have to do with Bill Paul's experience with and views on Wing Chun?




I'm just going by what Smith stated, regarding Paul's views on WC.

And the WC fighters that Paul worked with were not MMA fighters.

So what is that Yoshida is prob a much better Judoka than Paul ever was....and he had no answer to a striker who could defend against a pure grappler.

Sorry if I am being unclear. The point is, Paul made statements about Wing Chun's weaknesses.....yes Wing Chun has weaknesses. Just like Judo has weaknesses as shown by the Silva/Yoshida fight.

You keep on repeating how Paul is not "impressed" with Wing Chun which he very well may feel, But in the qoute, no where does Paul say that.

I practice some Judo, along with Wrestling and Shuai Jiao during the takedown phase of my MMA class. I can say, I practiced some judo for a time until I realized that striking and submission wrestling would go right through judo.

Does not mean I am not impressed with Judo.

Depends who's doing the judo, no?

I'm thinking of folks like Karo Parisyan (sp) and Fedor Emelianko...

You forgot to quote the point of my statement :

Also if Paul is an Olympic level judoka....that means he is prob one of the best on the planet. Was he training with the top Wing Chun people on the planet ?



This assumption is prob correct. But I assume the WC people Paul trained with were not on the elite level of a Olympic level judoka. If I were to bring this kind of athlete to my local Tai Chi club down the block, I don't think he would be too impressed either.

Karo and Fedor are true MMA's they crosstrain many arts along with Judo. I think we agree that a MMA would give anyone who only trains in 1 style many problems.

false claim.

anyone who claims that WC is "unknown" is the the antithesis of an authority on kung-fu.

Adoo, it is not a "false claim"--it is a fact.

Just because Smith's views don't support the little Wing Chun Martial Arts Microcosm you've obviously managed to create for yourself, it doesn't mean that he's not an authority on martial arts.

Get over it.

I agree with Smith that Wing Chun is prob little known on the Mainland outside of Southern China. Though worldwide, an argument can be made the the number of people practicing Wing Chun as a "Martial Art" outnumbers people who practice even Tai Chi (as a Martial Art and not as a health type activity).

To me this would mean Wing Chun is even more dangerous on the mainland.....knowing your enemy and his techniques is the first step to winning.

I'm not sure how much of an "authority" Smith is. I enjoy his books Martial Musings and Chinese Boxing Masters and Methods. As they give one of the first outsider glimpses of Kung Fu training and rare styles. I like his obvservations when he gives his own training and first had impressions of arts he studied. But there were manys styles that he gave short dismissive coverage of, without the reader knowing if he ever trained in it.

I honestly don't know.

Probably not.



Definitely in agreement.

I simply wanted to point out that Karo and Fedor make their judo work in the MMA arena.

I have yet to see WC work in a similar context--again, the fight between Boztepe and Cheung was especially depressing, since it was supposed to be two WC exponents proving who had better WC. I didn't see any WC there.

Watch UFC Ultimate Brazil. Vitor Belfort beats Vanderlei Silva in 44 seconds with a classic Wing Chun technique. A running straight blast. Belforts footwork is a little different and he throws horizontal fists....but the almost identical technique is a very basic and one of the most common types of attacks in WC.


Karo def has some sweet Judo throws.....it is not easy to pull them off in MMA without a Gi on a sweaty opponent.

I have seen the infamous Boztepe/Cheung tape. I'm not sure what to make of it either as it's heavily edited and blurry. If you do some searching on the net Boztepe/Leung Ting breaks down the fight and analyzes how Wing Chun (Wing Tsun) principles were used in the groundwork. Controlling position, imobilizing/trapping the arms etc.

I would say generally it looks embarrassing......

But ....when 2 fighters of similar skill fight, "clean" techniques will be difficult to pull off too.

Having studied WC myself......I love the principles and try to use them in my MMA sparring/training. But I personally do not use any "pure" WC techniques. You have to adapt every technique to the situation. When we train in the greco roman clinch or muay thai clinch drills.....many of those trapping movements are in WC as well......

Just like Karo has to adapt his Judo to MMA. He has a DVD series of instructionals on how to use Judo in MMA setting.......it's not pure Judo....

Hey where is about Bruce Lee..?
But i really enjoy your discussions.. he he he