I saw this article. ... Thought it was interesting for the fans of Bruce Lee. ... Is Bruce a icon of modern day Chinese culture?

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Bruce Lee fans aim for Hong Kong statue

Associated Press

HONG KONG - Bruce Lee fans are urging the Hong Kong government to help pay for a bronze statue to mark the actor's 65th birthday in November.

The Bruce Lee Club is planning to erect an 8-foot-2-inch statue of the martial arts legend on the Avenue of Stars, which honors Hong Kong movie stars, said Hew Kuan-yau, a member of the club's committee.

Lee was born in the United States but moved to Hong Kong as a child. Most of his movies were shot and produced in Hong Kong. He died in 1973 at age 32.

His fans voted for the statue to represent a pose from his 1972 movie, "Fist of Fury." Plans call for unveiling the statue on Nov. 27.

Hew said the club has only raised half of the $155,000 needed for the statue's construction, installation, insurance and publicity, and he's appealing to the government for a donation.

"We are not asking them to pay for the total sum, but at least part of it," he said Thursday. "We want people to know about the legend of Bruce Lee."

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So, ... Do you guys and gals consider Bruce Lee as a icon of Chinese culture? ...

Not to me. He was a famous chinese, that's all. Icon of chinese culture? Hardly, in many ways he is un-chinese like.

Bruce Lee used to be a cult and a representation of chinese kungfu. Many of his posters can still be seen in Hong Kong, Taiwan...

I kinda doubt if anybody from mainland China will know Bruce Lee.

He's cool.

Bruce Lee is really famous in the mainland...
Everyone likes him.

He's also famous for marrying a caucasian lady...many of us (Including me) think that's rather brave of him.

Brave in what way? Are caucasian women in some way more dangerous than your average Asian female? Naturally I have no idea why he married whom he did (True love perhaps?) but I always did wonder whether the fact that she was caucasian a plus factor for him?

Completely unrelated, but as stated elsewhere on this forum, he died while in bed with a chinese actress.

When you are that famous, that rich, you would think it has its perks

It's never enough. =))


/// Completely unrelated, but as stated elsewhere on this forum, he died while in bed with a chinese actress.

Betty Ting Pei

No, but it's just cool. We've had threads about it before. I'd say that it was a plus factor. Asides from love and blah blah blah, an Asian man marrying a blonde woman in America is a symbol of progress, like how a black/white couple would be a symbol of progress against racism. I mean, I'm not saying that's what he was thinking when he married her, but that's just what can be interpreted from the marriage.


He's a definite hero to Asian Americans. And Bosnians too.
Does he deserve a statue? Sure! That'd be great. I don't think he needs to be a "symbol of Chinese culture" though.

"When you are that famous, that rich, you would think it has its perks"

not Jet li, maybe because mainland chinese has more moral. But then again, Chow Yang Fat has an even better record, since he didn't even divorce.

How is this is symbol of progress? It sounds rather than like how Asian American guys are stereotyped, they all want a blonde girl? I first heard this from an White American friend a couple of years ago, l laughed it off, but are you saying this is true? This is what you all wish to achieve openly or secretly?

Some people just can't win. If he married a Chinese woman, he'd be seen as excluding others (seen as typical, insular), but then he marries a white woman, so now he's doing it for PR; a sign of "progress"!?
People can surely make their own decisions based upon love, comfort, happiness, etc, not having to constantly think of how others perceive it.

Q: What category do you put him if he has a [White woman] for a wife and a [Chinese woman] as a mistress?

Experimental?

It's progress because a white woman married an Asian guy, while the usual stereotype is white guy+war bride.

Minority male+white girl. That's a symbol of 'progress'. The movie "Look Who's Coming to Dinner" was about a black guy marrying a white girl, and it was marketted and made as a landmark progress bringing film.



It's like having black doctors/scientists. I'm sure many black people who become doctors and lawyers are aware of their positions in relations to stereotypes against their race, just as an Asian guy with a blonde (or any white girl I guess).

It's 'known' (joked about, etc.) that many black guys want blonde/white girls also, btw.


I think it is more general minority stereotype in America of "they are coming after our blondes". This is usually what White American Supremacists think.

if anything, the Asian stereotype is "too afraid/shy/meek to go for white girls". But y'know, stereotypes are stereotypes, based off of, well, stereotyping ideas!



*In the movie "Ocean's 12", the Chinese guy in it (who's like... 5' 3'' or so) is shown with a tall blonde wife/girlfriend I think. But I think it's more a 'break the stereotype' humorous scene than to show "oh, all those white guys want blondes".


It's not worth calling a 'stereotype' that all Asians want blonde wives. There's as much, if not more of an argument for "Asian guys only want Asian girls" (family pressure, for example)

Hardly, it is just a woman marrying a rich, famous guy. Doesn't seem any different from the centuries before

What, does a white woman need to marry an Asian hobo for it to be progress?


If money is what matters, then that sign of progress would be that an Asian man in America can accumulate the fame and wealth to earn himself a trophy blonde wife.



It's 'progress' because the marriage happened!

*that 'hardly' is extremely irritating. I don't know why, but it just made me go like "Jesus christ!"

Let's say a black doctor marries a white woman.
would you say
"oh, well, he's a well off doctor, how is that progress?"

Or when Liu Xiang won a gold medal in track, and I say it's progress, would you go
"hardly, he's just faster than the other guys"

To me, it doesn't add up, I only get a negative vibe, and it irritates me.

yesterday, the news reported that Serbian and Croatian will erected Bruce Lee Statue right in the
heart of their city. Serbian and Croatian see Bruce Lee as their icon for unifying them minus the
religion?? any comments??

I think Bruce Lee represented Chinese as a hero to certain extent, at least in most of his movies shown
that he fought off those Japanese, White guys who looked down on Chinese being the "sicked man of Asia"
Bruce Lee vanished those humiliation thru its kungfu artistry. What a man. I do not care about his personal
lifestyle who he married or born.
I salute him!!

I think that in most of Bruce Lee's movies... he is some how wronged and he seeks revenge. He lets his emotions control his desire for revenge. No doubt a great fighter, and symbol for young Chinese men, but I see Bruce Lee and the king of "Pay Back" without justice, just pure emotional kick butt pay back.

"Big Boss"
"Fist of Fury"
"Way fo the Dragon" (Return of the Dragon)

"Enter the Dragon" possibly the only movie where Bruce Lee plays an under cover cop... fight for the side of justice.

Payback w.o. justice is like Chinese food w/ msg.

But he's been wronged, so he exacts justice, with emotions behind it.

Well... what would your example of justice be then? Being a cop? I think the concept of justice goes beyond being a government official.

So is Jackie Chan the symbol of Justice then ? What movie has he been in where he isn't a cop, heh.

He helped improve the image of martial arts in America, and I think this led to people wanting to learn more. Actually I got into eastern history because of my interest in the martial arts, so what he caused is more important than the symbol he was or is.

From a purely martial arts standpoint, I'm not sure how well Lee represented Chinese culture.

His only formal training was in Wing Chun kung-fu (which is, interestingly, considered a "minor" boxing form by more traditional CMAists), under Yip Man.

After that, he became rather enamoured with Western boxing and Western fencing. Along with the Wing Chun, the boxing and fencing formed the base for Lee's own approach to combat (Jeet Kune Do). Lee's posthumously published fighting notes (The Tao of Jeet Kune Do) are full of boxing and fencing concepts. Even the very name of his art "Way of the Intercepting Fist" is derived from the concept of fencing's "stop-hit". He quoted from various historical and modern fencing maestros, including Francesco Marcelli (17th century) and Julio Castello (a modern master who once used his saber to defeat a kendoka).

Lee also eventually realized that the issue of groundfighting needed to be addressed, and so he added throws, takedowns, and submission holds from both judo and catch-as-catch-can wrestling (which he had learned from "Judo" Gene LeBell). This puts him at odds with traditional Chinese kung-fu stylists, who have no tradition of ground wrestling.

Lee's fighting arsenal was thus derived from an amalgam of Eastern and Western methods.

If one were to carefully watch some of his later movies. He add techniques from other Chinese systems just for show.

In one episode of Green Hornet, he implemented a triple-sectional staff against the opposition.

Will presume many of you never seen that one before.

Wing Chun is a kung-fu style, a variaton of Southern Shaolin; it's not boxing. It is a kung-fu style suited for fighting in close quarters (such as in an elevator).

Actually, Bruce's Jeet Kune Do incorporated many of the Filipino martial arts movements, along w Wing Chun (the intercepting fist). but it's mostly filipino style (the kicks). here is a Bruce Lee Screen Test of the Jeet Kune Do http://www.compfused.com/directlink/979/

ps, "Way of the Intercepting Fist" stems from Wing Chun style kung-fu. actually, as noted by Lee's posthumously published fighting notes, he came to the conclusion that "no style is the best style". deep

Adoo,

I'm using the term "boxing" in the broadest possible sense--i.e., any kind of fist fighting. In relation to kung-fu, various styles are often referred to as "boxing". There are internal boxing methods like Taiji, and external methods like Hung Gar.



Bruce's own fighting notes (the Tao of Jeet Kune Do) betray a very strong Western boxing and Western fencing influence. This is commonly accepted in the martial arts community today.

But hey, let's see what Bruce himself had to say on the matter--the following is from an interview of John Little in Martial Arts Talk:

In 1965, Bruce wrote a letter to his student James Lee, this was after he went back to Hong Kong for his father's funeral, saying he was working on his "own system" and that it was chiefly "a combination of wing chun, fencing, and Western boxing."

As per the Filipino influence, that came from Dan Inosanto, and it focused mainly on weapons (since FMA methods emphasize weapons).

It comes from Western fencing.



He realized that he had to take the best elements from various methods, which makes him a comparatively early advocate of cross-training. He is to be commended in recognizing the need for grappling instruction, at a time when grappling wasn't particularly popular in mainstream martial arts.

What do you mean by "minor"?

Robert W. Smith, one of the most famous martial arts researchers of the 20th century, has a fairly wide background ranging from Western boxing, to Kodokan judo, to various Chinese internal systems (his main specialty). He has written dozens of books on the martial arts, including the classic Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts with the late Donn F. Draeger.

Smith referred to Wing Chun as "a minor boxing method".


The following excerpt is from Robert W. Smith's Martial Musings:

"Wing Chun, a short-stanced system featuring excessive arms, is almost unknown on the Chinese mainland, though it may still linger in Guandong and a few other southern provinces. Bill Paul practiced it for a time until he realized that movement, body weight, and kicks would go right through it."

It's true Bruce trained in Western Fencing. His brother was a competitive fencer. He liked the explosiveness of the training footwork....and used it to develop his power side lead (right foot lead for right handers).

The concept of the intercepting fist (jamming) and the simulataneous attack is the hallmark of Wing Chun and is common to many martial arts as well. It is not "owned" by only western fencing and boxing.

Many "masters" refer to the arts they favour/teach as major arts......and puts down all others as "minor". There are stregnths and weaknesses in almost any style. That is why Bruce developed his style of no style.

Jeet Kune Do is not a style. It is a system of training.

While it's claimed early JKD included training from over 20 martial arts styles.......the appearance and training seems to me mostly Western Boxing, Fencing, Wing Chun, and some high kicks.

When I trained in JKD it was mostly Muay Thai, Filipino Martial Arts, Indonesian Silat, Brazilian JJ oriented. The right lead was not stressed as much.

Filipino Martial arts is weapons oriented in that they teach you weapons first. Empty hands at advanced levels as all the weapons hand movements translate almost directly to empty hands....

I'll concede that the name of Lee's approach represents WC as well as fencing, but fencing's influence on his studies is self-evident. Fencing terms feature very prominently in his notes.

I simply quoted what Robert W. Smith said--that is all. I don't agree with everything he has to say either.



I know that.

Indeed.



As I mentioned earlier, Lee was a comparatively early convert to the utility of grappling. His various students continued with this trend, by first incorporating Japanese shootwrestling, and later BJJ (via the Machados).



I'm familar with the Filipino approach, having trained in FMA myself. The "weapons first" approach suggests a military origin for eskrima, arnis de mano, & "kali".

Bruce Lee's kung-fu foundation was Wing Chun, a style suited for fighting in close quarters. "Way of the Intercepting Fist" stems from Wing Chun

QUOTE(BlueNote @ Dec 9 2005, 04:59 PM) [snapback]4775219[/snapback]
.....The concept of the intercepting fist (jamming) and the simulataneous attack is the hallmark of Wing Chun and is common to many martial arts as well. It is not "owned" by only western fencing and boxing....

Smith doesn't know what he is talking about when he said "Wing Chun as "a minor boxing method" method". inasmuch as he can't distinguish kung-fu from boxing, he is idiot .

Wing Chun is quite popular is HK (where Buce grew up and learn Wing Chun) and Macao, and to a lesser extent in Guandong province ---not almost unkown as falsely claimed by Smith.

what do you expect from someone who claims that Wing-Chun is a "minor boxing" and that "Way of the Intercepting Fist" stems from fencing

hell, GWB knows more about WMD and diplomacy than Smith insofar as kung-fu and wing chun

Adoo, it seems you're under a couple of mistaken notions.



It obviously referred to his fencing training as well. Look at his notes, and you'll see what I mean.

I already stated what Lee said himself--his method was a combo of WC, boxing, & fencing.



You still don't seem to understand the use of the term "boxing".

"Boxing" does not just refer to the Western sporting variety of fistfighting.

It can be used to refer to ANY type of fistfighting.

No doubt you've heard of the BOXER Rebellion, right?




Let's get the facts straight.

Smith made no comment about JKDs origins or base arts. That is something that Lee declared himself, in letters, interviews, and his fighting notes. The fencing component in JKD is readily accepted by everyone (except you, apparently).

Smith only commented on WC being a "minor boxing method". Smith himself comes from a heavy background in Taiji, so he's going to have specific opinions regarding various Chinese methods.

you've been out-numbered; BlueNote and I agree that it stems from wing-chun

also, boxing is boxing, kung-fu is kung-fu. anyone who lumps the two is an idiot.

Smith make false claims about wing chun, and you (lacking the knowledge) takes his claims as gospel.

Bluenote made no such claim.

Kung-fu is often referred to as a type of boxing.

Is that so difficult to understand?

Why are you being so stubborn about this?

Do a Google search for "Chinese Boxing" and see what comes up.




Smith offered his opinions on Wing Chun. I took nothing as "gospel"; I simply quoted him.

Keep it civil, Adoo...feel free to express your opinion that he's wrong, but lets try to avoid calling people idiot.

read again

QUOTE(BlueNote @ Dec 9 2005, 04:59 PM) [snapback]4775219[/snapback]
.....The concept of the intercepting fist (jamming) and the simulataneous attack is the hallmark of Wing Chun and is common to many martial arts as well. It is not "owned" by only western fencing and boxing....

no, Why are you being so ignorant ?

kung-fu allows for kicking and elbowing. boxing does not.

Smith is the quintessential Westerner force-fitting Asian culture (eg kung-fu) into a Westerner's point of view.

kung-fu has been practiced for several thousand years, and boxing has been practiced for several hundred years. yet, the idiot Smith would describe kung-fu as a form of boxing. such an idiot

I get what you're upset, but actually, the term "boxing" is often applied to any form of empty hand fist fighting, such as those in Kung Fu. It is a popular usage, and people who use it don't imply that Kung Fu = standing in the ring with boxing gloves on. So he's probably just saying Wing Chun is a form of empty hand fist fighting style. Translation can be such a tricky business.

once again,

boxing doesn't use kicks and elbows; kung-fu does.

Westerners of Bruce Lee's time didn't care much for what he did (when he was staring out). but they understood boxing. they, without much research, proceeded to define Bruce Lee's martial art from a boxing perspective---force-fitting kung-fu & karate & tae kwon toe, etc. within the framework of boxing. Smith is one such myopic

but kung-fu is not boxing. boxing doesn't use kicks and elbows

nowadays, most people, including westerner, are able to distinguish boxing from kung-fu.

I did.

All bluenote said was that the simultaneous parry and attack was a "hallmark" of Wing Chun, that is also found in other arts.

Nowhere did he state that JKD took it's name exclusively from WC's "hallmark".




I'm not being "ignorant", and I'm starting to resent your online tone.

The problem seems to be that YOU have a very NARROW definition of what "boxing" is.

That's not MY problem.

I don't see kendoka getting upset when their art is referred to as "Japanese fencing"--why, then, are you so adamant about not referring to CMA as "boxing"?



Actually, Western boxing has been practiced for thousands of years too--it was popular with the Ancient Greeks and Romans, after all.



OK, enough of the "idiot" remark. It's getting old really fast.

Smith is not the only person to "describe kung-fu as a form of boxing". Chinese fighting arts are broadly referred to as Chung-kuo ch'uan, which means "Chinese fist", aka Chinese boxing.

It's pretty common.

Just nitpicking...
So just becoz one guy said it is a "minor" art, we should just agree with him and ignore the several hundred thousands of WC practitioners who would believe otherwise of this man's theories. Of course WC is 'boxing', just not Western boxing. And still, what does he mean by "minor"?

Mod edit: "White guy"?

no, it's kung-fu.

I understand. You're missing the point. Let me explain it this way:

The word "boxing" conventionally has two usages:

1) particular usage, referring to the sport of boxing, two guys fighting with gloves in a ring.

2) general usage, any kind of hand to hand combat style, which isn't limited to use of fists alone.

When people say a Kung Fu style is "boxing," they are most likely not implying 1), but implying 2). So no one (including myself) is saying that Kung Fu is Western boxing. We are all using the word "boxing" in the general meaning (meaning 2). I don't know how to explain it more clearly.

You are really revealing your ignorance now.

English boxing (boxe Anglais to savateurs) does not allow kicks or elbows.

French boxing (savate; aka boxe Francais) does allow kicks--does that mean it's not boxing?

Thai boxing (muay Thai) allows kicks AND elbows AND knees--does that likewise mean that it's not boxing?

You need to understand that the term "boxing" is NOT limited to the modern Western sport form.



I'm not saying we should agree with Smith--I simply posted his view.

And what's with the "white guy" comment? Would Smith's views hold more credence with you if he was Chinese?

THANK YOU!



Given what he said, I assume he was referring to the art's overall popularity in China.





How old are you, bro?

Seriously.

Yeah, actually it would. He would also sound more convincing if he didn't refer to a certain Bill Paul for reference on the effectiveness of WC. Maybe he should actually train in it and see if it was still considered "minor". And I don't think he meant popularity-wise

It is not almost unknown on the mainland, several systems(Yuen Kay-san, Gulao) are alive and well. And in terms of popularity worldwide, WC is arguably 2nd behind Tai Chi.

Why?

I don't know who Bill Paul is.



Only if you're new or doing the yee jee keem yeung stance wrong, the stance can be deceptively stable. Freaking Yip Man was a 5 foot something old man, most of his students were bigger than him. But by their accounts during sticky hands, he manage to get them all off balance just sitting in his stance without taking a step. Its called structure.

I simply don't agree with that man's opinion and its not worth quoting from him. And first of all, WC's principle is not to fight force against force but to redirect and deflect it. If someone bigger and more powerful come at us, we go around their movement and attack. Likewise if someone has a strong defense, we go around their defense.

Bill Paul was an Olympic-level judoka in the 1960s, who also studied Chinese systems along with Smith.

But my question "why" had more to do with why you would give Smith more credence if he was Chinese. I'm still curious about that.



For what it's worth, you should note that, whatever Smith's opinions on Wing Chun are, he has been one of the staunchest advocates for Chinese martial arts as a whole in modern times. He is a recognized authority on numerous systems, and most of his books are regarded as classics in the field.

Wow....this thread really got heated !

I'm not sure if Bruce chose the name Way of the Intercepting Fist (JKD) mainly because of Fencing. I feel Fencing def played a big part in the footwork......but it's not the main idea of JKD just a part. All the handwork and ideas of Fencing is already evident in Wing Chun.

I have Robert Smith's book Martial Musings where he said Wing Chun was a "minor" art. He def used it in a belittling way.....not because Wing Chun is not widely practiced outside of Southern China in the Mainland. I remember he said Hong Kong didn't have many "masters" either........strong words.

Seems maybe Smith spent too much time in the North and Taiwan and unfortuately caught the chauvinism against southerners and especially the Cantonese ?



When Smith was training in China and Taiwan in the 50's to the 70's undoubtedly Wing Chun would be unknown to him. Traditionally Wing Chun was a closed family style and not taught much to outsiders. Yip Man was one of the first to teach it as a profession and never taught a foreigner until his death in the 70's. Bruce Lee was probably the first to teach it to non-Chinese when he moved to the US.


Again, whether Wing Chun is a major or minor art depends on the practictioner and his preferences. Smith focused mainly on the internal arts of Tai Chi/Bagua/Hsing Yi......I would say most practictioners of those styles would not "get" Wing Chun.

Do you feel Wing Chun is a "minor" art Centurion ? If you do not then it's gonna cause a lot of misunderstanding if you post statements like Smith's. If you do, that is fine too. That is why there are 100's of styles of martial arts.......

RE: Bill Paul. An Olympic level judoka will give EVERY stand up style major problems once into clinching range. A Brazilian JJ stylist would submit most Judoka on the ground, A Muay Thai stylist would put most Judoka to sleep at kicking range.....so what ?

Seemingly mostly from a misunderstanding of the word "boxing."

During the 3 minutes that they spent on Chinese History in my New York elementary school. My teacher got to the part about the "Boxer Rebellion"....she said the boxers were dock workers who unloaded the boxes from the ships.

No I am not still in elementary school now !