I was surfing through the China History Forum Site and thought of an idea of writing our own Art of War. ...

Some of our sources can be Source #1, Source #2, etc. ...
What do you guys think of it?

"My young apprentice, heed these lessons well" Master

Lesson 1
"Kill em all and let God sort em out"

Lesson 2
"Kill em more if can do it"

Lesson 3
"If you can Kill it ... then KILL IT"



"Oh crap!!! ... sorry ... this is the "Art of a Homocidal Maniac" ... lets try again" Master
"Too late, I am a fast learner" Apprentice
"Grass hopper, put the knife down" Master
"I can't ... I learnt to fast!"

*Stab* *Stab* *Stab* *Stab* *Stab* *Stab* *Stab* *Stab* *Stab* *Stab* *Stab* *Stab* *Stab* *Stab* *Stab* *Stab* *Stab* *Stab*

" ... must ... get ... *Snorts* ... students that ... *gags* ... is dumber ... *gurgles* ..." Master
"Told you I was a smart cookie" Apprentice

*Stab*
*Stab*

"Lill Bas-tard ... *gags*" Master

Man! ... You are brutal. ... What chapter should your tactcs be under?

Uncle Chiang's Art of War

Rule 1: Trust no one.
Rule 2: Money can solve most problem
Rule 3: Marry right
Rule 4: Learn how to make empty promises
Rule 5: Seek alliances with your enemies' enemies
Rule 6: Always leave a small island where you can escape to when things get tough.

Wow! ... I am learning from you. ...

Learn from CKS....he is wise and even wiser after mistakes.

I suggest -

Appendix M
(M for Murderous Maniac)

or

Chapter 12 - Living large like a Homocidal Maniac

Too bad the mistakes that CKS did cost a lot of lives. ... But CKS never cared about that. ...

This is somewhat pointless as a serious topic.

You can't mash together 7 military classics, take selective parts, and call it a CHF Bing Shu.

You must read these books. Watch many battles, and actually know how soldiers, commanders, logistics, etc actually work. I don't think any of us have those credentials.

Yzb,

There's a parallel of grand concepts between those seven classics, and Sun Bin (the 8th classic). Just got 2 know it.

Establish the grand framework from a top down pov. Things will make sense.

Think too narrow you miss the big picture.

Think too grand you miss the details.

Knowing the grand framework w/ the specifics is what divides the professionals and amateurs.

Reading the material will not give you enough experience.
Reading about it and visualize how it applies in situations in your mindeye will give
you some impression.

Nothing beats real world experience.


fyi- This Cardinal is a professional amateur.

Being old vet from balkan, have read most millitary classics incl. Clauswitz, Musashi (5 rings), Sun Tzu. *Achtung Panzer*, Liddel Harts book on armoured warfare, Caesars galics war, Tacitus Germania (original language), Various books on everything and everybody from Sargon the Great to Ho Chi Min and *Storming Norman* (And Patton too). Boring books about ancient argiculture in the middle east and Egypt, Have travelled ekstemsivly in varius climates and places from north of the polar circle to the deep desert in Sahara.
So in many ways i quite often have a farily good idea what i talk about, and one of the most important bar none lessons i have learnd is that amarturs study tactics, while proffesionals study logistics (Boring subjekt but a war winner every time).

So here is a few.

1) Logistics, logistics logistics both your own and your opponent.

2) Never stop your opponent from making a mistake

3) Never underestimate your opponents capabillity to mess you plans up, nor his stupidity

4) NO plan survives contact whit your opponent.

5) Human capacity for stupidity is boundless, but sometimes it just might work.

6) *A sure thing* is an oxymoron.

7) *To much of a good thing* is a oxymoron when you are making war.

8) *A fair fight* is like wise.

9) Rules is only for the loser (The winner gets to chose what they are)

10) *Idiot proof* has never met an idiot.

11) You cannot overestimate Murphy and his law.

12) Lady Tyche is truly a bit**.

13) Training, training, training. There can never be enough and you can always improve.

14) Theres always somebody better.

15) Theres always a fellow on the other side whit a sense of humor so keep both head and as$ down.

16) Good hygine, can be a war winner.

17) A condom has a multitude of uses, so you can never have enough.

18) Theres no such thing as inedible when you are hungry.

19) You can live whitout food for 2 weeks, but whitout water for three days at the most, so get your prioritise straight .

20) Only stupid or insane people is never scared.

21) Smoking is hazadous for your health. (Especially in war)

22) Treat your weapon like your the true love of your life, and she just might not turn her back on you when you need her.

23) The rules of war is simple, if you win you make the rules.(See also number 9)

24) The word *Unfair* is only usuable about your opponent.

25) Wanting to make out whit a member of the opposite sex is always a bad thing in a area were everybody carry guns.


Hope they are usuable

Impressed w/ your background.

One needs a grand pov before one talk about logistics and tactics.

Start from a top view of the scenario and work down to the specifics.

Am a big fan of McNeilly books on S/Z & Art of Biz/Modern Warefare where he summarizes the 350+ quotes in terms of 6 principles (w/ some revision).

1. Win All Without Fighting: Achieving the Objective Without Destroying It
Capture your target without destroying it
2. Avoid Strength, Attack Weakness: Striking Where the Enemy is Most Vulnerable
Avoid your competitor's strength, and attack their weakness

3. Deception and Foreknowledge: Winning the Information War
Use foreknowledge and deception to maximize the power of your influence.
4. Speed and Preparation: Moving Swiftly to Overcome Resistance
Use speed and preparation to swiftly overcome the competition.

5. Shaping the Enemy: Preparing the Battlefield
Use alliances and strategic control points in the industry to "shape" your opponents and make them
conform to your will.
6. Character-Based Leadership: Leading by Example
Develop your character as a leader to maximize the potential of your employees.

Don't lose.

If a problem cannot be solved by violence, then use greater violence.

When you lose, run.

Q: How many pgs of points are in your manual?



Q: & if you do?



Q: Whatever happen to ["finese before force"]?



You can't run if there is no space.

Retreating is advancing in another direction

If brute force is not working you are not using enough.

I think before I get serious I need to know are we discussing moder warfare or ancient warfare. just general policies that work regardless. Each situation is unique.

Believe BDM was referring to general strategies.

One set of major differences between modern warfare and ancient warfare are the weapons
and the amount of damage that can occurred.

The diffrences are for more than that. mobility has always been important now a days thouh its more of a requiremner. before slaughtering whoel cities was fine now 10 dead civilians will cause you political disaster

1) If you can't beat them, join them.
2) After you joined them, marry one of their royalties.
3) After the marriage, send a message back to your own camp and tell them that you surrendered to act as a spy.
4) Then you tell your own camp when and how to attack, and you will be attacking from within.
5) If the attack succeeds, you are a hero.
6) If the attack fails, you keep quiet.
7) If point 2 to point 6 fails, you remain a captive and keep quiet to save your own a**........

1)Read what the forumers had adviesd to do so
2)Learn them
3)Appy them in practice

Easier in this way ....lol

There're some good from a grand pov. Other advices are too specific and laughable.



You are correct in some sense.

We are more mobile than previous generations. SO is the opposition that you are facing.

Then my name must be Han Xin or else I'm dead XD.

Seriously though, this is what I view from the grand perspective:

-All things in the universe are related - the Tao.
-There is a dual condition, in oppose of each other.
-For each, there are myrid layers of underlying conditions.
-In their interactions, it is almost impossible for the human mind to totally perceive them.
-Thus, we only seek what 'conditions' (in this case it is an abstract meaning that could be apply to every thing) are benefitial to us, most of which are contested.
-So the strategist makes use of his 'conditions' or try to manipulate other conditions to his will to contest for victory over his designed goals.
-Therefore he first assess himself truthfully, set his objectives and analyse his possibilities.

This is how I 'logically' (supposedly) cut down on the purpose and need of strategic thinking...
Before it goes any further I need to know whether this is acceptable or not.
So comment away.

That is one interesting view. ... I am spending some time thinking about it. ... I do like it. ... Cool stuff. ...

# Friendly fire - isn't.
# Recoilless rifles - aren't.
# Suppressive fires - won't.
# You are not Superman; Marines and fighter pilots take note.
# A sucking chest wound is Nature's way of telling you to slow down.
# If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid.
# Try to look unimportant; the enemy may be low on ammo and not want to waste a bullet on you.
# If at first you don't succeed, call in an air strike.
# If you are forward of your position, your artillery will fall short.
# Never share a foxhole with anyone braver than yourself.
# Never go to bed with anyone crazier than yourself.
# Never forget that your weapon was made by the lowest bidder.
# If your attack is going really well, it's an ambush.
# The enemy diversion you're ignoring is their main attack.
# The enemy invariably attacks on two occasions:
when they're ready.
when you're not.
# No OPLAN ever survives initial contact.
# There is no such thing as a perfect plan.
# Five second fuses always burn three seconds.
# There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole.
# A retreating enemy is probably just falling back and regrouping.
The Ol' Ranger's addendum:
Or else they're trying to suck you into a serious ambush!
# The important things are always simple; the simple are always hard.
# The easy way is always mined.
# Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
# Don't look conspicuous; it draws fire. For this reason, it is not at all uncommon for aircraft carriers to be known as bomb magnets.
# Never draw fire; it irritates everyone around you.
# If you are short of everything but the enemy, you are in the combat zone.
# When you have secured the area, make sure the enemy knows it too.
# Incoming fire has the right of way.
# No combat ready unit has ever passed inspection.
# No inspection ready unit has ever passed combat.
# If the enemy is within range, so are you.
# The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.
# Things which must be shipped together as a set, aren't.
# Things that must work together, can't be carried to the field that way.
# Radios will fail as soon as you need fire support.
# Radar tends to fail at night and in bad weather, and especially during both.)
# Anything you do can get you killed, including nothing.
# Make it too tough for the enemy to get in, and you won't be able to get out.
# Tracers work both ways.
# If you take more than your fair share of objectives, you will get more than your fair share of objectives to take.
# When both sides are convinced they're about to lose, they're both right.
# Professional soldiers are predictable; the world is full of dangerous amateurs.
# Military Intelligence is a contradiction.
# Fortify your front; you'll get your rear shot up.
# Weather ain't neutral.
# If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed toward you.

I'm sorry....What is OPLAN?

Believe it was a tyPO.



Most of those rules 're designed for tactical combat, not grand strategy.


Interested pov.

Like to hear more.

Change, Cause and Effect

As everything with in the Tao changes, the strategist must first graps some concept of change, what is the cause, and what is the effect.

Of course if we focus on a subject, then a list of factors we need to look at also appear, however, at this vague higher level, the explaination is harder.

Change is the absolute truth, and yet it may seem vague, the present can be understood by reasoning the past, thus the future can also be comprehended.

The deeds done by men no matter how subtle; will have consequences. It may return anytime, and even the most brilliant will not be able to totally comprehend the return.

This ability to understand, of course, will be depended on experience and wisdom, the ability to comprehend the Tao.

Perhaps the best explanation is Karma, which is expressed as the basic rules of cause and effect, here it does not relate to good and evil. I’m not wise enough to explain it, one may also try the I Ching, but that is also [higher level]

However, there are at least two principles that can be understood and use as a guideline.

20/80 Pareto Principle

(Pereto was an Italian economist who discovered that about 20% of the companies in an economy would be responsible for generating 80% of the then Gross National Product and the remaining 80% of the companies in the same economy would generate the other 20% of the then Gross National Product.)

Determine what is important. In the overall: 20% actions will cause 80% of consequence. A major task is control and continuous adjustment.

Destruction and Creation – John Boyd

http://www.belisarius.com/modern_business_...nd_creation.htm

Haven’t read a lot from this fellow, but this is brilliant. It suggest the continuous changing pattern from order to disorder, breakdown and re-creation, and thus would be valuable in application.

Any other principles I haven't the chance to look at?? Am I missing something big?

After observing the environment, to asses one's self further, one needs to examine one's self/mind.

OK! ... So what do you think are the rules for grand strategy?

Read the Seven military classics.

It's all there.

Well written.

This Cardinal can conclude your pov with this line ["Strategy is Dao"].

Thanks.

I personally see that the main idea after is know the self. If you don't have an idea about yourself, then you will lose.

The most necessary inorder to know yourself is to know your own emotions and mind, the 'truth' the mind understand will never be the real one, we need to break down our own beliefs, that way we can finally attack the idea of the opponent. I suppose that's said in your siganature. XD

Thus end the tip of the iceberg.

let your enemy know that you are capable of what he is capable of.
whatever he can do, you can do better.

determination is essential. With absolute determination, a general and his army can achieve what was once thought impossible.

think of what he hasnt thought of yet. Never stop thinking.

he is your enemy. Destroy him.

Understand man first, then the terrain next, Finally, Heavens.

Then your strategy 'll be align w/ the Dao f/ a specific cycle.

I just thought of something ... if China History Forum were to write their own book of strategy and tactics, would it be generalized enough to cover everything or ... be situation specific? ...

Hi to the above previous posters:

It may seam odd that I am commenting on these postings now in Jan 20, 2007 when they were made some tome ago, But I just happened on it while trying to track a Cardinal 009 posting. However, I must say each posting and the development of the theme is very impressive, from the first to the last, the sometime brilliant, sometime bitter wisdom is in my opinion of great value to any thinking person interested in strategy. I am moved to do what I seldom do, download the lot for use as ponder material and note the participants who areto be listed on my "When you see a posting by this person, read it.


From a very impressed : would be: Master Ghost Valley

Don't be bitter.

People are people. Some know what they are talking about. Most don't.

To achieve in anything, it is all about seperating the cream from the milk. If you want to be the best strategic achiever in your field, can you seperate the signal from the noise.

Do you have time for that?

Are you conscious enough to see what is the signal and what is the noise?
Are you persistent enough to do that ?


If you don't, just don't worry. Be happy.