Did Yue Fei created Xing Yi Quan?

When did Yue Fei's master Zhou Tong died?

Not enough evidence for a conclusive answer
But my general answer would be no.

Xing Yi Quan is a martial art style. Using the Creative and destructive cycle and the five elements. Xing Yi Quan is also one of the three internal chinese martial art style.

I voted No because what we have is only the legend. There is no good evidence that Yue Fei created Xing Yi Quan. While the origins of chinese Martial arts certainly have an ancient tradition, most modern styles you see today can only reliably trace their lineage back to the Ming dynasty.

The same goes for the legendary founder of Taijiquan Zhsng Sanfeng.

Xingyi Quan (Form and Meaning Boxing)

Xingyi Quan or the form and meaning boxing is also called Xinyi Quan (free-mind boxing), Xinyi Liuhe Quan (free-mind six-combination boxing)* or Liuhe Quan (six-combination boxing). There are two propositions about the name of this school of boxing. One holds that the body actions and movements should be guided by mind and that this school of boxing is an identity of mind and body; the other proposition states that this school of exercises are mere imitations of animal actions and movements and adopted the form and meaning of animal movements.

According to historical records, the creator of Xingyi Quan was Ji Jike (1602-1683) from Village Zuncun in Yongji County in Shanxi Province. A resident of the late Ming Dynasty and early Qing Dynasty, Ji Jike was also known as Ji Longfeng. On his trip south to the Shaolin Temple and Luoyang in Henan Province and Qiupu in Anhui Province, Ji Jike passed his art on to Zeng Jiwu. During the reign of Emperor Qianlong of the Qing Dynasty, Xingyi Quan was spread in Henan, Hebei and Shanxi provinces. Ma Xueli, a Luoyang resident in Henan, Dai Longbang, a resident of Qixian in Shanxi, and Li Luoneng, Dai's disciple from Hebei, all contributed to the dissemination and development of the boxing. Over centuries, this school of boxing is now practised in different styles. The Shanxi style is compact, delicate and yet forceful while the Henan style is powerful, vigorous and substantial. The Hebei style Stresses steadiness, sturdiness and comfort. As regards routines of fist fight, a similarity is seen between the Shanxi style and the Hebei style, both using three postures of the body, five major movements of axing, bursting, penetrating, hurling and traversing and imitations of 12 animal forms (dragon, tiger, monkey, horse, turtle, chicken, hawk, swallow, snake, owl, eagle and bear). The Henan style mainly imitates 10 animal forms (dragon, tiger, chicken, eagle, snake, horse, cat, monkey, hawk and swallow)

* Liuhe (six combinations) is a special term used in Wushu, Chinese martial arts. In the Shaolin school of Wushu, there is a special branch called Liuhe Men (six-combination-group), which includes Liuhe Quan (six-combination boxing), Liuhe spear (six-combination spear), Liuhe sabre (six-combination sabre), etc. One explanation is that the six combinations mean spirit, breath and mind (inner three combination) and hand, eye and body (outer three combination). Another explanation is that the six combinations are the combinations of eye and heart (or mind), heart (or mind) and breath, breath and body, body and hand, hand and foot, foot and hip.

http://global.yesasia.com/en/Browse/Artist...all/aid-566033/ <-- for example

Do a quick search through the forum, I recall giving a brief history to Xingyiquan as well as the background as to its possible origins somewhere.

This is an interesting topic. ... I have two questions for you people out there: How many of you guys practices XingYi Quan? ... Do any one believes in the story that XingYi Quan is based on the movement of a spear? ... I'm just wondering. ...

http://www.geocities.com/ottawakungfu/150HsingYi002.htm

According to the "Ji Clan Chronicles" (Ji Shi Jiapu), Ji Longfeng's spear skill was extraordinary and he was known as "Divine Spear" (Shen Qiang). From those manuals and using spear principles, he taught a new style of fighting in Henan. He is recorded as stating "I have protected myself in violent times with my spear. Now that we are in a time of "peace" and our weapons have all been destroyed, if I am unarmed and meet the unexpected, how shall I defend myself?" In answer to his own question, Ji Longfeng reportedly created a style of unarmed combat based on his expertise with the spear. He referred to his art as "Liu He", the Six Harmonies. His students include Ji Longfeng, Cao Jiwu from Hebei province and Ma Xueli, a Luoyang resident, from Henan Province.

Q: Presume Ji Long feng reference to ["Liu He"- [6 Harmonies] principles is the same set found in internal martial arts (m/a) training. Wonder if this generation of M/A players utilizes the [6 Harmonies] principles in their traininig?

XingYi Quan is a one of internal styles..

(Daoist Martial Internal Arts of Wudang)

Other Wudan Internal Arts are Bauqua Quan and Taiji Quan..

Thats complete myth
None of the creation or developement of any of those systems occured in areas anywhere near Wudang.

That this Styles(Xing Xi Quan) are not deelopement in Wudang is perhaps true..

(Many Muslim or Buddhissts Styles are development by other Idelogics and became later Styles of this Idelogics..)

BUT!!

It is true, that internal Wudang Styles are Taiji, Bagua and Xing Yi Quans..

http://www.geocities.com/ycgf/arti_NW.htm <-- nice Site.. (see under (1) Philosophy: Buddhism or Taoism)

http://www.arte-tv.com/fr/connaissance-dec...CmC=753782.html <-- france/german Site about Wundan

see you later (i muss working)

I don't understand where you got this idea from.
None of the systems you mentioned are "wudang" by any way. At best, you will find them being taught because people eventually passed them in there. But that does not make them "Wudang systems". That would be like selling a toyota at a car dealer shop and claiming the car belongs to the car dealer. The mainstream developement was never there, and even today with the charade the PRC have built, those systems are no more wudang than they are shaolin or the national team. They are taught there, thats all really.

And one more thing, internal systems have pretty much no connection with Wudang as external systems are to Shaolin. Those associations came from fiction.

Hm..

Idea?
Do you have read my Links?

I dont mean tha Xin Yi Quan and other Styles are only Wudan Styles..

This Styles are only popular in Wudan not any more and have Groundidea from Daoistic Religion..
Thats all. not more..

"Wudan Styles" are not exist.. Its only a one of many subjective classifications of Wushu..

it give very different subjective classifications of Wushu:

1: modern and traditional Wushu <-- (very subjective and popular in Taiwan and Sothchina!!)

2: internal and external Wushu

3: North- and Soth- Wushu

4: Buddhistic, Daoistic, Muslim, natural Religions and modern (from religions Aspeckt) Wushu..

5: other subjective classification (Police and Triad/Criminal Wushu Shools..)


SY
Kediren

Everyone wants to claim that their style is the father of other styles.

I know lots of people try to link Taiji and Wudang, but it can't be proven.

Also, I read one of your links. They seem somewhat myth ridden, with Shaolin, Zhang Sanfeng, and differentiates between Waijia and Neijia as Buddhist or Daoist.

I particularly buy more into Adam Hsu's definition.
They're actually more like two different levels of understanding- Waijia being the most basic, and later you graduate to Neijia when you actually know how to use your Qi to fight, amongst other things.

I can't say I agree with Adam Hsu most of the time. Especially in this case. Internal training does not equal internal systems. All martial arts have external techniques and internal gong trainings, regardless of whether they are Wajia or Neijia. On the early stages of learning a system, both focuses entirely on external techniques as well as internal gong training of various forms with almost no clear link between the two. It is during the intermediate levels that you start seeing the effects of the gongs but it won't be until advance stages that you truely connect the two.

People claim that Neijia's principles are inheriantly different from Wajia because they uses neigong when fighting. What are 'unique' (and I am using this word in the weak sense here) about this neigong basically a combination of breath regulation combined with bodily (as opposed to limb) muscle power brings about a number of differnt kinds of strengths including moving your internal organs. But the fact is, when one is actually in combat where you are crossing seven or more moves in a second, you are not going to be drawing you power from breath and bodily movements each time. Take seven breath a second and you'd pass out ! So in application of techniques, it is only in VERY rare cases that you will be able to actually use that which makes you 'neijia'. Couple this with the fact that breath regulation is also a part of wajia systems, and it can generally be said that there really isn't any difference between the two when you are actually crossing hands.

In fact, the differentiation of Wajia and Nejia is flawed from the beginning. In practical terms, there are really nothing unique about neijia that wajia havn't got. Dispite what 'masters' may say, it is nothing more than a marketing ploy by martial artists of the ancient times in which says "We are the Neijia, we are better than those lowerly Wajia people".

Hmm..
i have hear that Adam Hsu mean, that classifications "internal and external" are not very clever..

i think he has right..

but you muss understand:

Wushu is classifications at North- and Soth- Wushu. (subjective, and at first time (~19 century.)!)

And after them one have found out, that Taiji Quan is popular in South and North China..(20 century)

therefore:

Have you now a new classification:

Wushu have 3 "Parts"= North, South and internal Wushu.. (competition classification in China)

It is very subjective and be good only for competition Rules.. (<--i mean!)

That all classifications are not a reality of Wushu..

If you will, cann you learn at first Taiji Quan, and after then a other "external" Styles.. As you will (wish)..

or you learn at first a "external" and later "internal" Styles.. (normaly Way for Wushu-Life)

or turned around...

sorry for my bad english

PS:

You have right..



Its only a "little pupil Style Patriotism"..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_martial_arts <-- funny..

Agreed w/ you.

Done many yrs of research. There's no actual connection between Taiji and WuDang.

These days there are some systems in China that claims linkage to Wu Dang.

proof?



GGG***

It bring more money..

-

Since you made the original point, you can prove it.
Lets see how many backed your assertion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_marti...s#Daoist_styles

<<Daoist styles
Daoist styles are styles that were created or trained mostly within Daoist Temples or by Daoist ascetics, which often later spread out to laymen. These styles include those trained in the Wudang temple, and often include Daoist principles, philosophy, and imagery. Some of these arts include Taijiquan, Wudangquan, Baguazhang, and Huolongzhang.<<

i have more proofs for it..



Sorry but it was your thesis..

therefore.. can you also prove your thesis?

I learned that "History in Chinese Martial Arts" is so screwed up. ... That I stop even reading about it. ... These days everyone has this fantasy of when they go to China and visit WuTang mountain that there are people flying around with swords and axes. ... It ain't so ... After a hundred years, people start making up history about who is associated with who. ... Almost as bad as the story of Bruce Lee fighting Jack Man Wong in the 1960s ... How about getting back to the topic of Xing Yi. ... Kediren! ... You know so much. ... Are you a real deal sifu where ever you are at ... ? "Old Europe"!

It is the lack of proof of any connection between Wudang and those systems.


Just how many times have this forum made claim that wikipedia is not a reliable source ?
Would people please stop using it ????
Most people who put articles up there are ametuers and are likely to write their own fantasies and actual facts. And in this case, it is obvious that the author knows NOTHING of CMA history.

<<These days everyone has this fantasy of when they go to China and visit WuTang mountain that there are people flying around with swords and axes.<<



Ok.. that was a mystical legend.. (and Eastern storys)

hm.. i was in Wudanchan and other Place in China..
And i havent see anyone flying with swords..


But i have see many Daoistic Monks and Prists they maked training Taiji Quan, Bagua zhang and XingYi Quan .. (that with Wudanchan Taiji Quan Questions was you, not me )

<<Are you a real deal sifu where ever you are at ... ? <<

Hm.. not really.. i do not teaching a Wushu..

"Old Europe" is a big Land in Europe that not will a war in Irak..

(i hope u dont have a problem with it..)

Sorry but if you make a statement you must at the first to proof your state, and do not flee in "back to the Topic"..

And i think that a Martial Arts handle a Wushu-history and Wushu-(subjective!)classification very neutrally and objective..

GL
Kediren

Many People are amateurs and make a good Job..

Sorry but i think that Wiki are very respictable Enciklopedia..
And.. If you have a problem with a Statemens in the Wiki why do you not to disprove a "false" other-peoples-means?

i dont hear that Wiki make a poblem with it..



http://www.wushu.com.cn/ <-- another source..

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/711...8121015-6497447 <-- more source..

i have still more.. pn please..

I rest my case

i rest my case and respect your case..

But you are so knowledgeable. ... You must be a Sifu. ...

No.. it was not my wish to be a sifu..
To be a sifu muss you do have many time, a will and a patience to teach other Peoples..

can you please let this senseless discussion about my personality..


http://www.xingyiquan.org/ <-- funny and mistical site.. (Nothing without lgin..)

I dont know what is on this site.. But i find that it is interesting to know another people means about XingYiQuan..

Agree with WJ on his pov. Wikipedia? [LoL]!

This Cardinal can bring up one point and you can bring up another.

The mindset of either party will be change.

The only thing counts in IMA is health enhancement and self defense.

I thought I could shed a little light on this topic as I am a practitioner of Xing Yi, please let it be known that I am no expert on this topic and anything I write is my own personal opinion.

Xing Yi Chuan translates as form/intention/style, what this roughly means as your intention determines the shape of your body.

It's goal is to bring you back to your instinctive nature, so the time from your thought to your action is non existent.

My teacher once referred to someone burning you with a cigarette, your muscles will fire instantly, that is what you want to develop, as soon as your mind reacts the Qi is led to the muscles to energize them to maximum efficiency.

Remember it is the Yi (intention) that leads the Qi (energy) that supports the (Li) physical body.

The myth surrounding Yueh Fei is quite ridiculous in my opinion, how could someone who was protecting China from invading bandit's (actually a minority from China) create such a highly sophisticated art as Xing Yi.

Xing Yi, if you did not know is a derivative of Xin Yi Liu He Chuan ( emotion/intent/6 harmony style).

This style was created by Ji Long Feng sometime during the Ming dynasty. This style was passed down to a Ma Xue li, a muslim from Hernan province, where it undergone more development's.

Li Zheng if I remember properly was a nephew of Ma Xue li, who passed this art to Dai longbang ( a wealthy merchant from Shanxi), who had a background in Tang Lang Chuan(preying mantis), this was the founder of Dai family Xin Yi.

Dai long bang taught Guo weihan, who taught Li Laoneng, I shall add though that what he taught him was a highly modified version of Dai Shi Xin Yi (Dai family Xin Yi), the reason being he did not want to impart all the secrets to him, but since he had shown some respect, he decided to teach him something of merit.

This is the rough beginnings of Xing Yi Chuan.

For a more in depth look at this history, visit www.chinafromtheinside.com, Jarek is a friend of my teachers and is very knowledgeable about this.

JB.

Actually, when you really train it, those things are somewhat needless. All martial arts when practiced to a certain level will achieve these abilities. Xinyiquan is nothing special in this area.

I don't see the logic here. although I agree that Yue Fei was unlikely to be the founder of the system, Yue Fei's education background and military training would mean that he certainly had the physical and intellectual capacity for developing a systm like this.


Actually, Ji was but a practitioner, not the founder. We can trace other practitioners such as 姬隆峰 before him.

I am interested in where you are getting your information regarding Xin Yi Liu He Chuan, could you please reveal your source?

As for anyone before Ji Long Feng, that cannot be proven, I hope you are not one to believe that Bodhidharma introduced Xin Yi, as that is another funny story.

Other tales such as Ji Long Feng finding a secret manuscript (Chuan Pu) concealed in a metal box in a cave of Zongnan mountain is ridiculous.

Yes, I agree Yueh Fei was known to be an expert in martial arts, strategy, horsemanship and other thing's, so he was capable to creating a martial art, but things such as his "10 thesis " are inconclusive.

I don't know what kind of martial art's you have background in, but I get the impression you believe there is no difference between internal and external art's, I strongly disagree.

I don't care how much you practice say Karate, you will never reach the level of say a "REAL" Taiji master, I emphasize REAL as Taiji practitioners who can really apply their art are a rare breed now-days.

I understand that any art when practiced diligently will after time become natural and spontaneous, and your movement will become more refined, so you are expend less energy. But there is a big difference in internal art's, such as their Shen Fa (body method) Bu Fa (stepping method) plus Ting Jing (listening Jing).

No, if you practiced any art will you get the same result, Xin Yi/Xing Yi has it's own special Jing and way of delivering power through the feet and body, much different, than say other internal art's, such as Taiji and Ba Gua, that what make's it unique. Practicing Karate for 50 years will not get the same result.

Peace.

J.

Sorry, I read you wrong. I thought I saw Ji Longbang. You are correct about the story of Dharma. However, your statement of Ji Longfeng being a founder is, while commonly accepted, unproven either. A number of things we need to take into account.

(1) One of the key sources that connects Ji Longfeng with the system is the 拳論質疑序. And that only says Luhequan. It lacked the Xinyi.

(2) Another source that says Ji Longfeng is the founder of the system is 姬際可自述. If you actually read it carefully, not only is it wrong on so many levels (including the whole magic box things) but the style of writing does not reflect that of an educated man which Ji Longfeng is.

(2a) Relating to the previous point, the signiture of the source is on the 25th year of Kangxi's reign. But Ji Longfeng died on the 22nd year. Which means that somehow, Ji Longfeng rose from the dead three years after he died and wrote his biography.

(3) Another 'authoritative' source that refers to Ji Longfeng as being the founder of the system is the 姬氏族譜 which was a copied version of the original. This book dates to the reign of Qianlong. Not Ming. Thus, there is no way to determine what the original would have said. Considering that you can actually find hints of anti-qing sentiments in the source, it would be surprising that some facts were altered for that purpose. More importantly, it only says he taught martial arts. It didn't specifically say "Xinyi Luhequan".

Hence, while various sources as well as common sense makes it 'more likely' that Ji Longfeng was the founder rather than Yue Fei or Dharma, to claim he was indeed the founder with any degree of certainty is a sure sign of someone either being duped or duping others.

The degree of difference between internal and external systems is not that significent compare to two different external systems provided enough geographical differences. In fact, difference between two external systems like Longying and Erlang is actually more than some internal systems compared to external ones such as Bagua and Mizong. When you study a more systems and map them out, you will find that geographical and social differences accounts for more variations in martial arts than any other factor.

No one denies there are tactical and cultivative differences between systems. I don't see where you get that idea from. Certainly not from my posts. But your idea that Xinyi Luhe is somehow "special" because it brings you to become instinctive in your combat is totally untrue and unfounded.

JB,

Chatted w/ Jarek a few times. He is a gentleman and a great guy.

Are you studying ShanXi Xing Yi?

I have not met Jarek in person, but have spoken him briefly over the net. Yes he is a nice guy and maybe the most knowledgable white man on the art's, he has really put a solid effort into studying Chinese martial art's and culture.

Like I said before, he studies under Li Zhen Si, in Shanghai, he is very famous for his Xin Yi Liu He (Mai Zhuangtu branch) and also known to some as the "King of Cha Chuan".

I study Xin Yi Liu He, Dai Shi Xin Yi and recently Luoyang Xin Yi Liu He, before I studied Hebei Xing Yi Chuan and Bei Shaolin, Chin Na, etc.

J.

Impressive.

Q: What factors made you decide to focus on so many different varieties of XY?

After practicing Shaolin for a while, I became a little uninterested in my practice, Bei Shaolin is quite good, but I had watched and discussed the internal art's a lot with my teacher, plus he could use his Xing Yi/'Taiji, etc, to easily defeat any attack of mine, so I knew it was practical and effective.

I first started out in Xing Yi (Hebei) method, and practiced diligently for around 3 year's, then I had a child and my training took a back seat as I was trying to concentrate on my career as well.

When I did have the time to start training again, my teacher asked me if I would like to start Xin Yi Liu He Chuan. Of course I jumped at the chance as I had been waiting for a long time for him to ask me, but I am patient and knew when I was ready, he would ask me.

Xin Yi Liu He is not offered to people outside the circle to speak, apart from me there is another 2 student's, one is in Hong Kong the other lives in NZ.

After starting training in Xin Yi Liu He, I stopped all my Xing Yi training and any other martial art's I had to concentrate on developing Xin Yi Liu He structure, which in my opinion is very, very hard to learn, I am also one to believe that if you want to trully master an internal art, you need to stick to it and not practice other external arts at the same time.

I also practice BJJ at the same time, because of the fact it is a grappling orientated style, which focuses on ground fighting, so it does not interfere with my Xin Yi.

Xin Yi Liu He has at the present 3 branches, which are all original, there is to my knowledge another 2 branches, but what I have been told are now watered down and mixed with other art's.

J.

Impressive IMA background.

Used to study Shaolin since my childhood. After learning internal martial arts (IMA) properly. Decided to swear off all Shaolin exercises that didn't give me the Six Harmones feel.
Have you been able to use your IMA training to steady your balance?

It is quite funny as when I was learning Shaolin at the very start of my training, I was also learning Xing Yi, I found it very hard to practice both style's, so I decided to concentrate on Shaolin.

My teacher is very, very competent in Xin Yi Liu He/Xing Yi, so his obvious speciality (that and Wu Chian Chuan Taiji) are apparent in whatever he teaches.

Now I should explain that he never, ever alters the forms as in his opinion they are perfect and convey whatever point, set of principles or spirit the creator was trying to keep.

For example when you issue Fa Jing, he would emphasize soft/hard Jing and when neutralizing, would emphasize softness, stickiness and use of the waist, he would never use hard, resistant force.

For your question regarding balance, I am not too sure exactly what you mean?, do you mean physical base/root?, if so, than yes.

Since practicing Zhan Zhuang Kung, my Tui Shou ability increased a lot, I had a much stronger base to exert force from, plus my neutralizing was better as well as I was not easily pushed off balance.

Xin Yi Liu He Chuan has very good Shen Fa, although it is not so prevalent in other schools, meaning I have seen a lot of people who train the same style, but their structure is not so good and they maybe use too much muscular force to issue.

J.

Mastering the IMA princples of Center, Relax, Connect, Calm and Whole is important for those who emphasize internal.

If someone doesn't integrate those principles as one entity, ["ting jing"] is impossible.

Once ting jing is possible, one learns how to neutralize, control and release.

Yue Fei created a lots of Kung Fu, but I don't know about Xing Yi Quan ?

I think Zhou Tong died when Yue Fei is about 17?

Care to elaborate on that ? I would really like to know what other martial arts is attributed to Yue Fei other than Yingzhouquan and Xingyiquan.

I tend to believe that almost all styles attributed to generals, emperors, monks, nuns, dreams etc as well as differentiation by internal, external, north, south, Shaoling, Wudang, short, long....etc. as more marketing than reality.

I don't subscribe to the view that styles, techniques, forms from the ancient past were perfect and the goal should be to preserve and not improve.

As for founders.....there may be some styles where a "founder" can be traced who first gave the style a name that became commonly accepted. But were the techniques, strategies invented by the founder from a blank slate ?

"New" styles are more personal expressions and preferences of the "founders" based on previously existing techniques/styles.

Take for example 2 of the most popular "modern" systems that have gained a big following. Bruce Lee's JKD and Gracie Jiu Jitsu. At the time the systems were "born".....all the techniques were already pre-existing in other "styles". the evolution was more through how pre-existing techniques were trained rather than creation of new techniques.

I think it is really stupid to have people sit and argue who founded what when they could spend time training. Does it make a difference if Wu Pei Ching or Whoopie Goldberg made the first flying twin black dragon through the purple veils of the palace gates kick? No, it is still the same thing regardless.


The point is you really do not know who made what 100 percent of the time. Maybe alot of the styles that were made were stolen off of somebody else, or the same thing just given a different name with very little difference. Maybe the people who "founded" some of these arts were dishonest for example, but it still does not change what the technique is.

There is a difference between being obsessed with who is the founder and having some degree of basic understanding. While it is true that arguing who was the founder on an absolute level is normally a waste of time, that does not mean you shouldn't at least have some idea. How can you truely say you are a Chinese if you don't have some degree of understand of Chinese history ? Just 'being' chinese by blood is not enough. Similarly, just practicing the system is not enough. To truly understand a system means you need to understand how it evolved. How it became what it became. This is where history and geography is important as tracking the development of martial arts through their historical and geographical movements often gives indication as to how they changed and whether if what we are learning today is indeed how it was originally intended or not. Yes, understanding a system's history changes your understanding of the system.

In addition, this is a HISTORY forum.

I can agree with your points. I guess what i am trying to get across is balance.

Other myths about martial arts created by Yue Fei:

YingZhao ( eagle claw ) is often claimed to be created by YueFei. ( edit: ops, you already said that )

There is also a spear styled called "YueJiaQiang" ( Yue family spear ), which utilitzes long lances. In factly, there's an entire style called "YueJiaQuan".

ZhanMaDao is said to be invented by YueFei against the Jin heavy calvary (I'm sure you are familiar with the story ), so ZhanMaDao usages are normally attributed to YueFei as well.

People like to credit past heros as a way to legitimize their own systems. It's no different for Shaolin and Wudang. The matter of the fact is all systems are mostly likely created by the common people from war and conflicts. To deny them is to deny their memories and their lives, and I find that very unfilial.

Actually, I did manage to trace the Yuejiaqiang to a house of Yue and this system wasn't spread until the Mid Qing. I tried tracing their family by I wasn't able to get pass the early-Ming dynasty.

While there are good historical evidence to suggest Yue Fei did ultilize the Zhanmadao, it was unlikely that he invented it and might have just copied it from the Zhanmajian and Modao of the Tang. I think it is more important to acknowledge that modern day version of the Zhanmadao and the Song era bares little resemblance and the techniques that are employed simply does not match at all.


That it true. However, from a historical point of view, martial arts history is one of hte blurriest field ever therefore to trace the true founder of each system is almost impossible. Most people therefore just settings for the "guy that made the system famous". We acknowledge that there was people before him, but these are often just a footnote rather than the focus.