Can someone tell me more about Tang's military system? I would like to know more about Tang's military history as well..

The Tang dynasty adopted the Sui military system but it was much more stringent organisation. The military system was called Fubing system (府兵制).

The central command was divided into 12 weis (卫). In each wei, there was a commander-in-chief (大将军) and two generals (将军). The military units used across the country were called Zhechong Fu (折冲府), each headed by a military director (折冲都尉) and a vice director (左右果毅都尉).

There were 3 categories of Zhechong Fu, depending on the number of soldiers as follow:

Upper Fu commanded 1,200 men
Middle Fu - 1,000 men
Lower fu - 800 men

Under each fu, there were divisions: regiments (团), companies (旅) and huos (火). Each huo contained 10 soldiers. Teh army had two tasks: to defend the imperial court in the capital and organise local defence.

Any military dispatchment required the corresponding fish symbol (鱼符), sent as a sign of authenticity along with a royal edict issued by department of states affairs following an imperial command (敕书). Only the emperor had the right to despatch soldiers. Those who dispatched more than 10 soldiers and horses without the royal edict would be sentenced to one-year imprisonment or could face execution by hanging.

Soldiers were drafted from the families of local landlords, peasants and court officials below the 6th rank. Draftees were required to supply their own provisions and weapons. They began to serve at 21 years old, staying in the military until they reached 60 years old. Except for occasional distant military assignments, the soldiers did not leave their local land. They worked on the farms during peak agricultural seasons and received military training during off-seasons. In 749, the fu military system was replaced by the mercenary system, which weakened the Tang military.

why there are upper,middle and lower fu?

what's that about their differences?

does the Tang has elite army?

Hi guys

Check out this composition of a Tang army of 20,000 men, based on the description given in General Li Jing's Art of War, preserved in the 通典, 武经总要 etc.... As this is just a preliminary study, please bear with me if there are any translation or interpretation errors...

pic:
http://forums.swordforum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=544242

flanks (front) refer to front left flank and front right flank
flanks (rear) refer to rear left flank and rear right flank

An army of 20,000 men -- 14,000 fighting men plus 6000 logistics men

Structure of a platoon of 50 men:
A group consists of 3 fighting men
A section consists of 3 groups or 9 fighting men
A platoon consists of 5 sections or 45 fighting men

plus
Civil Commissioner
Platoon Commander
Assistant PC / flag bearer
2 flag bearers

From the very brief description, the bowmen and crossbowmen are equipped with "modaos", sword-polearms for close-quarters combat, which they would use after firing volleys of arrows/bolts at the enemy... Others are equipped with spears and shields...

What are jumpers? (role in battlefield, equipment, etc.)

and are the commandoes like... scouts? (equipment, etc.)

does the jumpers or commandoes also mean special forces?

Following the text, I have translated "奇兵" as commandoes and "跳荡" as jumpers... Judging from these names, these 2 groups appear to be some form of elite or unorthodox troops...

As Yun's command of classical Chinese is excellent, I think I will pass the material to Yun on Monday and request him to furbish you guys with more detailed info...

I've heard of elite forces being given the name 'leapers and agitators'



when I hear commando, I think of covert operations, or ninjas
Tang Ninja Commando's!

Then....can the development of ninja in japan be traced back to Tang Army? lol

looking at those numbers again, there seems to be no spearmen type listed

Exept for jumpers and commando's, which do not seem to be 'mainstay' footmen with spears/halbers/shields but some kind of more elite force, yet they outnumber archers and crossbowmen.

Is cavalry also all heavy lancers, or are they a combination of light and heavy elements?

my lecturer said that tang used a miltia sytem where han troops where recruited 30 days per year of service and that the elite troops of tang where merceneries is this truE?

Thomas Chen passed me a copy of Li Jing's military manual yesterday, and I've been looking through it. This is what I can gather about Tang military organisation, and the role of the Tiaodang 跳荡 ('reserves') and the Qibing 奇兵 ('dragoons'):

A typical Tang army consisted of 20,000 men, of which 14,000 were combat troops and the other 6,000 were logistics personnel protecting the supplies. The 14,000 combat troops were divided into 280 companies/platoons (dui 队) of 50 men. 80 of these companies (4,000 men) were cavalry, and 200 (10,000 men) were infantry.

The 20,000 troops were also divided into 7 regiments (jun) taking different positions in the formation:

A Centre (zhongjun 中军) of 4,000 men, of which 2,800 men (56 companies) are combat troops. 400 crossbowmen, 400 bowmen, 1,000 cavalry, 500 Tiaodang and 500 Qibing.

A Left Flank Scouts (zuo yuhou 左虞侯) regiment and Right Flank Scouts (you yuhou 右虞侯) regiment, each with 2,800 men of which 1,900 are combat troops (38 companies - the text mistakenly records this as 39). Each 300 crossbowmen, 300 bowmen, 500 cavalry, 400 Tiaodang and 400 Qibing.

Two Left Flank (zuo xiang 左厢) regiments and two Right Flank (you xiang 右厢) regiments, each with 2,600 men of which 1,850 are combat troops (37 companies). Each 250 crossbowmen, 300 bowmen, 500 cavalry, 400 Tiaodang and 400 Qibing.

Each regiment would classify its Tiaodang, cavalry, Qibing, vanguard companies (zhanfeng dui 战锋队) and support companies (zhudui 驻队) into five grades based on their quality. Each grade would be led by a different officer. One grade would be sent into battle first, and then replenished by another grade if necessary. Even if all five grades were decimated, the supply troops were not to be used.

On encountering the enemy, the general would arrange his formation. First to take up positions are the Right Flank Scouts, then the Right Flank, then the Front (probably one of the Flank regiments), then the Centre, then the Rear (probably one of the Flank regiments), then the Left Flank, and finally the Left Flank Scouts.

In this passage, there is a discrepancy because the following numbers are given for the companies in each regiment: 36 in the Centre, 28 in each Flank Scouts regiment, and 27 in each Flank regiment - a total of 192 companies instead of 280.

It is also recommended that battalions (da dui 大队) of 150 men should be formed by combining 3 companies, to prevent the enemy from breaking the line by concentrating their attack on one point of it at the opening of the battle. Each battalion is placed at the middle of the regiment formation, spaced evenly along the line. There are 15 battalions in all (2,250 men) - 3 in the Centre and 2 in each of the other 6 regiments.

Other than the 45 companies used to form battalions, there are 58 companies used as multi-purpose companies (tongdui 通队), and 170 companies used as combat companies (zhandui 战队) and support companies (zhudui 驻队). The multi-purpose companies each occupy an area 20 paces wide, with ten of such companies occupying 200 paces. The 85 combat companies occupy an area of 170 paces, and the support companies are placed in whatever area is left over. The cavalry are placed dismounted in the rear of the combat companies, on the left and right of the support companies. With them are the Tiaodang who are a shock infantry reserve, and the Qibing who are dismounted dragoons.

When the formation is ready, the drums are sounded and the crossbowmen loose their bolts when the enemy are a distance of 150 paces away. The bowmen loose their arrows next, when the enemy are 60 paces away. If the enemy comes within 20 paces, the crossbowmen and bowmen put down their crossbows and bows, which will be gathered up by the men in the support companies. The crossbowmen and bowmen each have a modao 陌刀 (or daobang 刀梆, sword-pole) tied to their arm, and will now pull on the rope to pick up their modao and advance with a shout to attack the enemy along with the vanguard (zhanfeng 战锋) companies. These crossbowmen each have 50 bolts, and are arranged in a V-formation (or goose-flight formation 雁行阵) at the front of each combat company. If a crossbowman fails to advance into close combat with the others, he is executed. The horses of the crossbowmen, bowmen and vanguard are to be held by 'horse-holders' (zhuoma ren 捉马人) selected from each company before the battle. If a horse-holder loses a horse or flees during the battle, he is executed. The names of the horse-holders are noted down before the battle so that each lost horse can be traced to its holder.

Each vanguard company of 50 men is placed in front of two combat companies, and at the sound of the drums (i.e. when the enemy is in close range) charges in, followed by the two combat companies. If any man in the combat companies fails to charge in after the vanguard company, any of his company mates who kills him will be rewarded with 50 lengths of cloth. Any man from another company who kills him will also be rewarded. The support companies, on the other hand, stay in position and do not advance.

The cavalry, Tiaodang and Qibing are not to move at this point. Only if the infantry (i.e. the crossbowmen, bowmen and vanguard) are beaten back by the enemy, or fail to break the enemy line, will the cavalry (who have remounted), Tiaodang and Qibing charge in. The infantry then withdraw slightly, regroup, turn around and slowly advance back into the fray. If, on the other hand, the cavalry, Tiaodang and Qibing are defeated too, the vanguard and combat companies are to quickly charge back in together to aid them. The Tiaodang, Qibing and cavalry are not specialised units, but are selected from the companies before the battle.

If the enemy flees, the Qibing dragoons and the cavalry are not to pursue them on horseback until it is ascertained by the scouts that they are routing in disorder rather than feigning retreat. The infantry (including Tiaodang) are also not to pursue them for more than 30 paces until a rout is ascertained. Once the rout is confirmed, the cavalry can pursue, but not far ahead of the infantry. The Zhechong 折冲 and Guoyi 果毅 (junior generals in the units) may dismount during the fighting, but when the enemy has retreated, they will mount their horses, inspect the condition of their units, and then lead a pursuit. The support companies, however, are not to join in the pursuit.

Each vanguard company of 50 men is led at the front by the Captain (duitou 队头), followed by the flag-bearer, followed by the left signal flag-bearer on the left and the right signal flag-bearer on the right. Behind them are the troops in five rows, stretching beyond the left and right of the signal flag-bearers: 7 in the first row, 8 in the second row, 9 in the third row, 10 in the fourth row, and 11 in the fifth row (45 men in all). The last member of the company is the Lieutenant (duifu 队副), who follows behind the company with a modao to slay anyone who will not advance with the others. The Guoyi 果毅 (junior general) also stands behind all the companies with his staff, supervising the battle and executing anyone who does not advance.

A million thanks to Yun for the translation !!!

Check out this picture of some Tang troops in heavy armour and with peidao and a long-shafted weapon... which I believe to be the modao... Seems to me to be around 1.5~1.6 meters long with blade and shaft-handle of equal length... It is interesting to note that the modao 陌刀 was also addressed as daobang 刀棒 in Li Jing's Art of War...

http://forums.swordforum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=546459

How I wish I was born at that time and was an assistant general to Li Jing, together we will combine our efforts directed at the Chinese Northwest and blaze a trail brighter than Wei Qing and Huo Qubing of the Han...

Clarification: the long-shafted weapon that Thomas is referring to is not the spear that the soldiers are holding upright, but rather the long sword-like weapon that is strapped to their belts. There is a spike at the end of the weapon that is pointing upwards, and Thomas speculates that this was rammed into the ground to erect a makeshift anti-cavalry obstacle out of modao.

I posted that Li Jing's treatise, in the general information on Chinese warfare section.

The Fu Bing's date of decline began as early as the 660s. Fu Bing is only efficient with annual SHORT SUCCESSFUL campaigns which keep the soldiers trained and experienced. With the successes, Tang manage to create buffers which create a peace without much military expenditure and Burden on the common mass. Since the Fu Bing is able to farm for themselves, and get rewarded they fought with valour and because of their annual training and campaigns. They are a very effective force of professionals. Because of these the Tang manage to create great peace for some 40 years. Lucky for Tang the absence of any major power in these years gave Tang dominance without any heavy expenditure on military.
However when the Korean war dragged for a long time, burden began to descend, and dying soldiers are no longer rewarded. This create a decrease in zealous and the fighting capability decrease. Conscripts began to be increasing.
More important, when stronger states such as Tubo and the Tujue began to rise and threaten borders in the 670s, Fu Bing could not crush them in just one season of campaign, this create even more burden since farmers began to provide food for them.
In all, the rise of Tubo signified the end of Tang's unipolar dominance and peace in the borders. Because one campaign can't subdue them, Fu Bing is doomed to end. Because of this the first permanent garrison is established in the western province in 677 aainst Tubo. This is even more accelearted by the reestablishment of the Tujue empire in the north. Soon more and more permanent armies are established on the frontiers and by 737 it became the standard, and the Border garrisons grew to 490,000 by 750. The Fu Bing is no longer useful.

Warhead, can you give us the link or name of the thread for that? I have no impression of it. Was the treatise posted in English or Chinese?

Found it...
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=961&hl=

we both have something in common............................ what the hell do Tang soilders where?!!?

They wear iron lamellar armor, if they're equipped with armor.

It usually covered the front and back, with shoulder guards that hung to guard the upper arms.

I've seen some art of swordsmen with curved shields (wooden?)

Shields seem to be wooden mostly, with iron reinforcing the center.

This was written before Yun posted the Li Jing translation; but even in that fuller account, I can't see spearmen. Yet in the extracts from Li Jing that Yun posted in another thread, at http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2966 spears are frequently mentioned. So where are they in Li Jing's "ideal army"?

Are the Tiaodang "reserves" the spearmen? If so, are they the only spearmen?

Tang army abandoned heavily armoured hourseman in favor of mobility.

There is a good chinese article on Tang military and their tactics at

http://bbs.hefei.cc/archiver/?tid-382544.html

I'll summarize the main points:

Basically, during the rebllion against the late Sui dynasty, the Tang rebels were able to make full use of their high morale and mobility in tactics to beat the heavily but cumbersome equipped Sui army. It destroyed the reliance on heavy cavalry that was present from Age of fragmentation till Sui dynasty.

During war, the outcome of "light cavalry vs heavy cavalry" fighting was based on the comparison between mobility and the armour protection capability. But finally, it was the resurgence of the light cavalry that became the main power behind Tang's army. But heavy cavalry continued to exist, just that its importance has been less emphasized than the light cavalry.

In the Tang army, the number of cavalry troops are alot. The ratio between infantry and cavalry is about 3:1. This was something that other dynasty were not able to achieve. Tang dynasty was the peak era of cavalry in China, and it was also the zenith of chinese power.

Ever since Qin and Han dynasty, the Tang produced the most horses. During the time when Li Yuan rebelled against Sui dynasty in Taiyuan, the Tang were able to obtain 2000 horse's assistance from the Turks (Tujue). It also obtained about 3000 Sui horses from Longyou. This was the earliest base for development of Tang's light cavalry. From then on, the practice of rearing horses started to become popular. The Tang also learnt from past experience and emphasize the technique and method on rearing horese. They also bought horses from the northern nomads, in order to intermingle their horses (letting them mate) in order to produce horses which are strong and healthy. The number of horses produced also greatly exceeded that of past dynasty. From the times of Taizong, there were 750,600 horses. Whenever the Tang launched any military expedition, it would choose good horses that were strong and healthy. Because of rearing good quality horses, the Tang army's horses were of equal quality as compared to the Turk's horses in the western region. In comparison to Tang, the han dynasty horses were alot but their qualities were not good. After the reign of Tianbao, every troops had up to 10,000 horses.

The "policy of horses" is the basis for building up a strong cavalry army. Thus, the Tang army cavalry forces were stronger than that of any past dynasties.

The Tang army were able to fight several victorious battle due to the following reasons:

1. After Jin dynasty, the central plain of China were in turmoil. The northern nomads invaded China and there were countless of wars. In order to protect themselves, the citizens build several walls and fortress and trained themselves in the art of fighting (using swords or archers), thus it produced an atmosphere that favoured fighting for the military. Several aristocrat and officials also had their own private army, these army were actually quite alot, and when combined together, they can form the whole army of a country. They were also well-equipped (consisted of mainly heavily-armoured heavy cavalry). Because of countless years of warfare, these soldiers were skilled and experienced in fighting. In addition, because of great mixing between the northern nomads with the han-chinese, they caused the han-chinese to be more ferocious and more war-like. Before Tang, China inherited a culture of war-like and atmosphere of fighting.

During the early yars of border wars in Tang dynasty, esp. during Taizong's period, it practised a strategy of what's called "using the foreigners to fight against foreigners". In several battles, it has the support or logistic backup from the northern nomads of the north-west. In addition, the Tang army were skilled in fighting and thus won several battles. The winning of battles also mean that the Tang obtained several horses, and thus the quantity of horses kept increasing during Tang. It wasn't until the Rebellion of Anshi that the link betwen the west was cut off and the Turks once again rebelled, and the "policy of horses" began to decline. Its Fubing military system also began to be damage, and several of its conscript were not abel to fight. Thus it causes the decline of the Tang army by the late Tang period.

Tang Military Organisation


The Tang military organisation is known as "Fubing system 府兵制" (The system of House Military). The "Fu 府" can mean an official 'house' and were distributed across the country. It was also known as "Wei Fu 卫府" (Protection House). In the northern frontier, there were guards troops. The Fu troops were regularly dispatched on rotation to guard the frontier. The Fu soldiers were permanent soldiers for life. They had to service the army regularly. After his service period was over, he can return home. During his service in the army, he must bring his own weapon, food, horse and clothings etc. Because of the popular practice of rearing horses among the public, the army did not need to fear a lack of horse. Even for infantry, they were also equipped with large number of horses, thus the Tang army's marches and traveling speed was quite fast.

The Tang troops were organised into "Dui 队" (team) as the most basic tactical unit. One "Dui 队" comprises of 50 men organised into of 5 "Huo 火". Each "Huo" has 6 horses (infantry). Above Dui, it is a "Tuan 团" (battalion), and above "Tuan", it is a "Jun 军" (army). Whenever a general went on expedition, it would have about 20,000 troops, which were divided 7 "Jun" (comprises of front, back, left, right, central army etc.). Within these 20,000 troops, there were 14,000 different combat units and 6000 supplies/logistics units. Out of these 14,000 combat units, it would consist of 10,000 infantry, 4,000 cavalry, each distributed across 7 "Jun".
The central army (jun) is the largest while the other 6 armies would be close to one another. Within the infantry, there would 2,000 crossbowers, 2,200 archers, 2,900 raiding troops (commando) and 2,900 special troops. From the ratio of various units, we can see that the calvary units are the largest and became the main force of Tang army. With such a strong cavalry, the tactic combat capability of Tang army is undeniably strong.

The Tang cavalry were well-equipped. For the short-sword of cavalry, all uses Dao or sword. For long weapons, they uses horse-lances (shuo 槊) as well as axes. For long-distance strike, they uses cross-bows. Li Shimin was capable of shooting from bows. General Weichi Jinde was capable of using lance.

In terms of cavalry tactics of Tang , what's most amazing was the sudden raid and force raiding tactic of its light cavalry. In most circumstances, the cavalry combined its main force to carry out long-distance flanking. Li Shimin and General Lijing were especially skilful in the use of sudden raid using cavalry. For instance, Li Shimin led cavalry to raid Xue Rengao, Li Jing used 3,000 cavalry to raid Dingxiang etc. These kind of tactic make use of 'surprise attack' and was copied from Tang till 5 dynasties period.

Also, in terms of cavalry tactic, the Tang also greatly emphasized the smooth combination between infantry and cavalry, and make full use of their strength to increase combat capability. For instnace, during the rebellion of Anshi when capturing Chang'an and Luoyang cities, Guo Ziyi made use of infantry advance in the front, while using the Uighur cavalry to attack from the back to achieve success.

Just bought this rather interesting 393-page book (in Chinese) that deals with T'ang military organisation. It is not newly published but is certainly new to me:

孫繼民《唐代行軍制度研究》

Sun Jimin, Research in T'ang Military Organisation (Taipei 1995).

Table of Contents, as roughly translated:

Preface

Chapter One: The Status of the Field Army/Military (行軍) in the T'ang Military System

Chapter Two: Foreign Expeditions (in Qin, Han, Wei, Jin Nanbei Dynasty etc.) Prior to the T'ang Field Army System

Chapter Three: Military Systems Prior to the T'ang

Chapter Four: Personnel in the T'ang Army

Chapter Five: Generals in the T'ang Army

Chapter Six: Bureaucratic Organization of the T'ang Army

Chapter Seven: Table of Organization of the T'ang Army

Chapter Eight: Varieties of T'ang Troop-Types and their Make-Up": Infantry, Cavalry, Naval troops

Chapter Nine: T'ang Army Intelligence: Reconnaissance, Advanced Scouting and Warning

Chapter Ten: Certain Tactical Doctrines of the T'ang Army

Chapter Eleven: T'ang Army Logistics and Rear Defense

Chapter Twelve: The Function and Impact of the T'ang Army System

The book make heavy use of Li Jing's Military Treatise as expected but also considers other sources, including both literary sources and attestations from archaeological sites in Central Asia. Of all the treatments on the T'ang military system I have come across so far, this seem to be most complete (I am speaking as a layman) although I do understand that fellow scholars find some fault with the accuracy in some of what Sun reports.

In reading through the book I find that it has a lot to say on all the various topics with regard to the T'ang army that have already been discussed on this forum. If I find the time, I will try to mine the book and add to the earlier threads as appropriate.

I have found the following passage in the JiuTangShu (Old History of Tang):

左豹韬卫翊府中郎将元庆

But I am hardly understand the meaning of some characters. Does anybody is able to translate it ? Thank you in Advance !

左豹韬卫 -Left wing of the BaoTao Guard (was in use during Wu Zetian reign form 685 until 705)
中郎将 - Zhong LanJiang - is a military position
元庆 - Yuan Qing is the name of this officer

I cannot translate Yi-Fu (翊府). How can I translate it by taking in Sight the passage in whole ? Thanks.

And one more question: Is there was in Tang Army an military position 左右郎将 or it should be translated separately as left [and] right LanJiang ?

翊府中郎将、左右郎将、录事、兵曹。人数、品秩如左、右卫。

The term is a reference to the commander of a unit belonging to the imperial palace guards.

翊衛 was the former name of the two 衛府 (and later just 衛) that "assisted" the three more "senior" guard units in the palace. 翊府 means the same thing. So one translation (most inelegant) would be "Auxiliary Guards."

[Name change: reference in Xin Tangshu:．志第三十九上 百官四上: "武德五年，改左右翊衛曰左右衛府"]

[Relation to other guard units: reference in Xin Tangshu 新唐書, 志第三十九上 百官四上:親衛之府一：曰親府。勛衛之府二：一曰勛一府，二曰勛二府。翊衛之府二：一曰翊一府，二曰翊二府。凡五府.]


豹韜衛 is one of the guard 衛 (左右屯衛曰左右威衛). Split as usual into Left and Right (左右) units. I would probably just translate it as Leopard/Panther Guards (leaving 韜 untranslated). It appears that commanders of the 豹韜 Guard unit would wear clothing decorated with leopard/panther insignia.


[Reference in Xin Tangshu: 新唐書．志第三十九上 百官四上: "左右威衛曰左右豹韜衛."]

As for the commanders of these units, the Xin Tangshu also cites their rank. Each of the two fu (府) in the 翊衛 was led by a langjiang (郎將), whose court rank is 5th class normal or above (正五品上). So there would be a Left Lanjiang (左郎將) and a Right Langjiang (右郎將)

Thus 豹韜翊府右郎将 = the Right Langjiang (右郎將) of the Leopard/Panther (豹韜) Auxiliary Guard Unit (翊[衛]府)?


[pinyin corrected as per Ur of Persia's comments below-thanks!]

A quibble and pedantry:

郎 should be Lang
新 xin
旧 jiu

standardising on pinyin allows non-chinese literate readers to more easily locate terms, searches etc.

Otherwise great stuff, very interested in the Tang army, more please.

Thank you very much, dear Friends !

there is something I do not understand. The raiders/commandos, what are they armed with? Same with the special troops

are you saying that those are cavalry? If so, it seems odd as you had also said that there were about 4,000 cavalry for 10,000 infantry, yet there are more commando raiding troops than anything else.

also, any info on armor? Different armor worn by different kinds of troops? Or did people just wear what they could afford.

The troops mentioned above as "raiders/commandos" were not really used in this way as per modern formations that bear the name; instead they constituted a regular part of the battleline of a T'ang field army. These troop was supposed to be among the first to engage the enemy and to do so in a way as to disrupt the opposing formations. I'll flesh out with citations later on when I get home.

Also they were definitely infantry and not cavalry.