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Thomas Chen
I had posted these images sometime back on the Qing forum, but thought it would be good to post here too, in case you guys have missed it...


Warriors will always be warriors... First three commentaries are by Annette Bügener, from the online Sothebys catalog.


Fude, Vice-General, Pacifier of the Frontier, Count of the first rank [with the epithet] jingni chengyong (Perfect and Brave Suppresser of the Rebellion) and Minister for Colonial Affairs

Fude (died 1776) was a member of the Guwalgiya clan garrisoned at Kirin and belonged to the Manchu Plain Yellow Banner. He held a leading position in the campaign in East Turkestan and Jinchuan (1771-1776). He showed special heroic bravery together with other generals during the breaching of the besieging army’s lines and the relief of the Manchu troops under General Jaôhui (see no. 3) in February 1759. Due to his merits in this campaign, he was promoted several times and finally awarded the title of Marquis with the epithet jingni chengyong. Fude’s subsequent career was characterised by numerous inglorious affairs. He was sentenced to death several times for embezzlement and other offences, but the Qianlong Emperor always pardoned him. Finally, his false accusation against the successful General Agûi (1717-1797) for exceeding his authority proved fatal. A few days after Agûi’s triumphal return from Jinchuan (1776), Fude was beheaded.



Čebdenĵab, Vice General, Pacifier of the Frontier, Commandery Prince with the rank of Imperial Prince [with the epithet] chaoyong (Outstanding and Brave)

Čebdenĵab (1705-1782) belonged to the Borjigit clan and was a member of the East Mongol Qalqa. His illustrious father Cering had been honored by marriage to an Imperial Princess and thereby awarded the title Consort (of the Imperial Princess). Since 1755 he gained merit by persecuting the West Mongol rebel leaders Dawaci and Amursana. In the spring of 1758, he decisively participated as General in the victory of the battle of Khorgos and was awarded the honorary title ‘Eminent and Brave' of his father. Later he was transferred to posts in Ili and Tibet. From 1771 to 1773 he acted as third Governor of Qalqa. In his commentary, the Qianlong Emperor makes special mention of Čebdenĵab’s imperial descent, praises his excellence in horseback archery, and compares him in his lack of literary aspirations to the famous generals of old.



(Zhaohui) Jaohûi, General, Pacifier of the Frontier, Duke of the first rank [with the epithet] wuyimouyong (Martial, Steadfast, Resourceful and Brave) and Minister of Revenue

Jaohûi (1708 - Dec. 10, 1764), given name He-fu, was a member of the Wu-ya clan and belonged to the Manchu Plain Yellow Banner. As a grand-nephew of Empress Xiaogong, he was a second cousin of the Qianlong Emperor. Outstanding among his many civil and military missions was his successful participation in the First Jinchuan War (1748-1749). Later he played an eminent role in the conquest of East Turkestan (1755-1759). During the three-month siege at the Kara Usu river near Yarkand in the winter of 1758-1759, he showed perseverance and received much glory and many imperial honors, among them the honorary title of Duke of the first rank, with the epithet wuyi mouyong. On his return to the capital at the head of the victorious army in 1760, Jaohûi was greeted by the Emperor personally outside Beijing and honored with several banquets before the throne. Afterwards he served as Minister of Revenue and was appointed Assistant Grand Secretary in 1761. Until his death in 1764, he was several times sent to inspect and report on river conservancy. In 1796, the name of Jaohûi was placed in the Imperial Ancestral Hall, among those of other eminent statesmen.



General Mingliang, who was active during Emperor Qianlong's time and lived from 1736-1822. He was originally a member of the Manchu Bordered Yellow Banner, who rose to become a high-ranking commanding officer...... eventually achieving the appointment to the rank of "General of Heilongjiang province" (a.k.a Manchuria). During his time, he had participated in a few campaigns to quell several of China's internal conflicts (such as fighting against Gansu province's Muslim rebels).

Before his retirement due to illness, he was holding the appointment of a top ranking scholar academic in the "Wu Ying Dian" or "Imperial Hall of the Martial and Heroic". (From my mainland chinese book on Chinese military biographies)

Incidentally, I had once obtained sections of a Qing primary source document, on the military administration, training and structure of the Eight Banners, from my local library:

http://linc.nus.edu.sg:2083/search/t{21303...1525d}&1%2C%2C2

Only to realize that General Mingliang was one of the authors and compiling editors. biggrin.gif



Emperor Kangxi...



Emperor Qianlong...



Ming Wanli (1570s) era brigandine color-coded armour (notice the cavalry are wearing black, red and green brigandine armour)
http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/8898/ming4ax.jpg

1590s brigandine armour


1590s helmet...
Altaica Militarica
Dear Thomas,

Please, indicate their names and life data, the name of the painter one by one. I remember you found an account about first 2 portraits (of 10 ones) with all names etc.

And we are waiting for more armour! smile.gif

Best regards,

Alexey.
Thomas Chen
QUOTE(Altaica Militarica @ Oct 13 2005, 05:45 AM) [snapback]4764966[/snapback]
Dear Thomas,

Please, indicate their names and life data, the name of the painter one by one. I remember you found an account about first 2 portraits (of 10 ones) with all names etc.

And we are waiting for more armour! smile.gif

Best regards,

Alexey.


I have edited my post as per your request...

Ming Wanli era period painting showing a military expedition to quell an internal rebellion.
Note the Ming soldiers in colour-coded brigandine armour...
Probably different colours for different units..
Perhaps that's where the Manchus got their idea of the colour-based Eight Banners...
Altaica Militarica
QUOTE(Thomas Chen @ Oct 13 2005, 01:32 AM) [snapback]4764999[/snapback]
I have edited my post as per your request...


Thanks a lot. These data make your posting very informative.

Please also check your e-mail regarding translation of "Wu bian".

Best regards,

Alexey.
Altaica Militarica
QUOTE(Thomas Chen @ Oct 12 2005, 05:33 PM) [snapback]4764898[/snapback]
Fude, Vice-General, Pacifier of the Frontier, Count of the first rank [with the epithet] jingni chengyong (Perfect and Brave Suppresser of the Rebellion) and Minister for Colonial Affairs. Fude (died 1776) was a member of the Guwalgiya clan garrisoned at Kirin and belonged to the Manchu Plain Yellow Banner.

Čebdenĵab, Vice General, Pacifier of the Frontier, Commandery Prince with the rank of Imperial Prince [with the epithet] chaoyong (Outstanding and Brave) Čebdenĵab (1705-1782) belonged to the Borjigit clan and was a member of the East Mongol Qalqa.

(Zhaohui) Jaohûi, General, Pacifier of the Frontier, Duke of the first rank [with the epithet] wuyimouyong (Martial, Steadfast, Resourceful and Brave) and Minister of Revenue. Jaohûi (1708 - Dec. 10, 1764), given name He-fu, was a member of the Wu-ya clan and belonged to the Manchu Plain Yellow Banner.

General Mingliang, who was active during Emperor Qianlong's time and lived from 1736-1822. He was originally a member of the Manchu Bordered Yellow Banner, who rose to become a high-ranking commanding officer...... eventually achieving the appointment to the rank of "General of Heilongjiang province" (a.k.a Manchuria). During his time, he had participated in a few campaigns to quell several of China's internal conflicts (such as fighting against Gansu province's Muslim rebels).


So, the first one is Guwalgiya Fude or Chengyong-gong of Manchu Plain Yellow Banner? This clan is mentioned in Yuan annals as the clan of jurchens fighting against Mongol invasion.

The second is Borjigin Čebdenĵab or Chaoyong-junwang? He is a descendant of Chingis-khan! Which banner was he enlisted in?

The third is Wuya Zhaohui or Wuyimouyong-zi of Manchu Plain Yellow Banner? What about his second name Wuya Hefu? He was never mentioned as Wuya Hefu in all sources available in Russia.

The forth is Heilongjiang Dutong Mingliang of Manchu Bordered Yellow banner. What is his title? How did he managed to take part in the war in Gansu?

Please, correct titles if I am wrong.

Best regards,

Alexey.
MING-LOYALIST
Awesome pictures.


BTW
Is every Mongolian with Borjigin surname a descendent of Chingis Khan?
Altaica Militarica
QUOTE(MING-LOYALIST @ Oct 13 2005, 07:06 AM) [snapback]4765061[/snapback]
Awesome pictures.
BTW
Is every Mongolian with Borjigin surname a descendent of Chingis Khan?


Why are these pictures awesome?

Borjigin is the clan of Chingis-kahn. Hiyad Borjigin is its full name but then it was shortend up to Borjigin. Almost all nations of Central Asia have the Borjigin descendants (as the matrimonial liasons of that clan were very wide).

Best regards,

Alexey.
Altaica Militarica
Look here - it is a set of armour (I think the helmet is not original as well as boots are). What do you think about?

http://www.ramus.ru/forum_alt/viewtopic.php?t=161

As the sender said it is Guangsu (1875-1908) era armours I am in doubt - it seems to look like Jiaqing (1796-1820) set.

To compare post-Jiaqing sets with the first one I posted some pics from Thomas's site.

Best regards,

Alexey.
Altaica Militarica
Could anyone tell me what do tin-coated rivets on Qing brigandine armour mean?

I know that golden rivets mean the Emperor and Princes of Aixing Juelo clan & dutong's of 8 Banners, silver ones - fu dutong's and highest warleaders (such as guardian colonels etc.), bronze ones - for others.

But typical Qing armour is found resently in Buryatiya. It is blue with remnants of golden embroidery of a dragon (number of fingers on a claw is unknown). All rivets have tin coating of heads. Unfortunately I had only drawings of this suit of armour.

What does it mean?

Best regards,

Alexey.
Conan the destroyer
Alexey,

One recent member, Ta-Tsin centurion, writes that tin-coating on Brigandine rivets was a protection against rainy weather.
Wujiang
QUOTE(Conan the destroyer @ Dec 17 2005, 04:03 AM) [snapback]4777041[/snapback]
Alexey,

One recent member, Ta-Tsin centurion, writes that tin-coating on Brigandine rivets was a protection against rainy weather.

That was for European armour
I am not sure that is also used in China
Thomas Chen
I just love lookin at all these pics again...
TMPikachu
how much did brigandine weigh, and did it come in different styles for infantry,cavalry, officers?

How much has it changed from Ming to Qing?
Thomas Chen
RE: how much did brigandine weigh, and did it come in different styles for infantry,cavalry, officers? How much has it changed from Ming to Qing?

Sorry, I have not done any indepth studies, so I am not sure about your 3 questions... I have put additional pics (from the Ming Dynasty) on the original post, so pls check it out...

Check out my website showing 2 Qing ceremonial brigandine armours and matching helmets...
http://chinese-armour.freewebspace.com/photo5.html
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