About Yong Le's northern campaigns against the Mongols, how successful were they? I heard mixed results from these, some say it brought much peace to the frontiers after he chased them out, some said he was chasing nothing but the wind in the steppes.

I also would like to know this issue, too. How successful was this? How long the successfulness of this campaign could be suistained?

In absolute terms Yongle did kill and enslaved a large number of Mongols, however the Ming never were able to destroy the remnants of Yuan (which only surrendered to the Manchus). Logistics was a major problem and even if Ming forces could chase/kill out everyone in the steppe land around the border, it wouldn't prevent other peoples from moving in.

Well, the Mongolian area is quite large. I'm sure other Mongolians had left some area before attacked by Ming forces. How could the Ming could kill al of them?

Ya.. killing all of them is like making them extinct.. maybe they didnt try to make them surrender or what .. they just wanted to prevent them from entering ming borders

I think that's not the good solution by killing all Mongolians. Perhaps, making them submitted themselves to the Ming. This should keep an eye on the Manchus...

I suppose during the time of Emperor Cheng Zu, the Jurchens weren't a threat (The term Manchu did not arise until much later).

In fact, the Ming had established numerous profitable trading forts in the nativeland of the Jurchens, and had Jurchens serving in the military units there, being hardy horsemen.

If anything, it was the Jurchen cavalry (mercenaries) who aided the Ming against the Mongols.

The founder of the Later Jin (renamed to Qing), Nurhaci, was trader who dealt extensively with the Ming Dynasty.

In any case, genocide was not an option - there was no practical way to implement it, nor any benefit.
As pointed out, depopulated areas are always re-occupied by newcomers if the place offer some livelihood.

I have stepped in to delete all the recent posts made by Emperor Hong, and Ximen Chuixue, and Dragonlord, because they were of an inane and childish nature. Computer game fantasies about machine-gunning Manchus do not belong on CHF. If you persist in this behaviour, you will be put on Mod Preview.

The barbarians make up of numerous tribes. You can kill off 1 tribe, another tribe take over. It is neverending.

Even the Mongolians have different types of races. However, I wonder were the Jurchens part of Mongolians? Or, they're a race by themselves???

One website I've seen claims that Yongle was born to a Korean concubine. I doubt their is any truth to this statement.

[quote name='Conan the destroyer' date='Oct 17 2005, 12:39 PM' post='4765840']
One website I've seen claims that Yongle was born to a Korean concubine. I doubt their is any truth to this statement


Yung-lo was one of the greatest monarchs in history.

Of his many accomplishments, building the modern city of Beijing stands as one of his lasting achievements. Also the long Ming peace, more than 200 years comes from his hard work.

The theory of his half Korean blood is deeper than one or two websites. Wu Han, the famous Ming historian and vice mayor of Beijing wrote a lot about this theory. It will always remain a mystery, but the theory goes that his mother was surnamed Gong.

You can read more about this in F. W. Mote, Imperial CHina 900-1800, the definitive look at late imperial china.

I personally do not believe it, I find it very unlikely that he was born to a Korean concubine IN China. Especially since the relationship between the Ming under Hongwu and Korea was not exactly friendly.

According to the Chinese wikipedia, his birth mother was a certain Concubine Gong(?) (碽妃) from Korguyeo (高丽). After usurping the throne, he had the official records amended to reflect himself being born by Empress Ma (孝慈高皇后), Zhu YuanZhang's official wife.



Wikipedia is not that reliable, but since a name was given, it would be possible to research it further.


The official relationship between Hongwu's Ming and Korea got nothing to do with this - Zhu Di (YongLe) was born in AD 1360, the Ming Dynasty was officially founded AD 1368.

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%98%8E%E6%88%90%E7%A5%96

The debate of whether Yongle may have been Mongol or Korean is addressed by Shih-Shan Henry Tsai in his book "Perpetual Happiness: The Ming Emperor Yongle". Tsai writes that the historian Li Dongfang showed that the Mongol "Gold History", upon which this legend is based, is not reliable.

According to the legend, Zhu Yuanzhang may have taken a Mongol or Korean concubine surnamed Gong from a Mongol prince when he occupied the Yuan capital. However, Zhu Di (Yongle) was already nine when his father captured the capital, thus precluding the possibility that Zhu Di was the son of Gong (if Li Dongfang's and Henry Tsai's analysis is correct). In addition, Empress Ma had always treated Zhu Di as her natural born son, even saving him from a pratical death sentence that Zhu Yuanzhang meted out on Zhu Di as a punishment for a transgression, strongly indicating Empress Ma was Zhu Di's mother.

Why Empress Ma didn't want to recognize Zhu Di as her son? Any reasons behind this?

Sadly the forbidden palace bring no benefit to the people but only for his pleasure. He bring the enunchs to power which lead to the decline of Ming Empire. I think Hong Wu were the one that accomplish far more than him. He know the enunchs threat, recongnizes the threat come from the north, and his agriculture reform greatly benefit the Ming for many years to come. Hong Wu care more for the people while Yongle care more about himself.

You do realized that HongWu's imperial palace at Nanjing was the basis for the palace at Beijing. His strong support for agriculture however caused a decline in commerce and the increased efficiency that trade brings.

Yongle forbidden palace are several times bigger and expensive. It uses more than 200,000 labor which doesn't serves any real purposes for people well-being. At least the great wall consturcted by the great Qin do serves huge purposes.

Hong Wu trade ban has not bring the decline of the commence. As Yun said, the Ming was unable to enforces such trade ban. Many still conduct trade illegally with neighbour nations. Tade boom happen by the mid 16th century and the ban was officially lifted around 1560-70s. So, stop blaming that Hong Wu bring the decline to the commence.

After Hong Wu, none of the Ming Emperor was better than him in improving the agriculture situation. As result, the tax base has decline as time go by.

Compare to Yongle, Hong Wu recongnizes the threat that poses by his general and decided to eliminate them one by one ensuring that his soft-hearted son can sit on the throne smoothly. General rebelling against their Emperor happen occasionally like Li yuan (Tang dynasty), Kang xi capable general and the ex-Ming generals (Qing dynasty) and more. For Yongle, he fails to recongnizes the enunchs threat and allow them to hold great power which later lead to the decline of Ming Empire.

does the policy of letting soft hearted emperor take the throne, the reason why there were so many good for nothing emperor.

The weak Emperor had nothing to do with soft-hearted Emperor. There was never an policy to choose soft-hearted son but I think Emperor normally would choose their eldest son to take the throne.

Yongle should get blamed for that problem because he let the eunuchs to hold great power. If he listen to Hong Wu, the Ming Emperor could have been better. The disastrous defeat of Ming army at Battle of tumu were one of the several example.

To Jiangji

Though the Forbidden palace was built on a much grander scale compared to the palace in Nanjing, it's meant to symbolise the power, prestige and might of the Ming Dynasty especially during Yongle's reign. Though through the process of its construction which may have utilised 200,000 labourers or so you claim, it did provide jobs and salaries for the common people and of course thousands of craftsmen recruited from all parts of China to partake on such a grand project. There was a documentary on the Forbidden palace just quite recently aired on Discovery channel, it actually tells us that Yongle treated the labourers and craftsmen very well and was very generous with them. Whereas the Great wall of China started by Qin Shi Huang Di actually involved conscripted labourers, meaning the common people being forced into work under very harsh conditions, though it may have protected its land from invasion from the XiongNu tribes at the time but at what cost? Let me tell you what's the statistics involved: some says 400,000 lives were lost and there's other historians that says the numbers probably run into the high 700,000 or even more. You be the judge of that.

Even the Yongle did provide salary to these labors, the cost of building the palace was enormous. It was the farmers who bear these huge burden. Hong Wu recongnizing the suffering of the people especially the farmers since he is peasant himself. He keep the tax really low for the farmers and carry out agriculture reform. Most of the government tax come from agriculture. However, the heavy taxes imposed by Yongle ruin Hong Wu algriculture reform.

Furthermore, the building of the palace requires annual maintenance. There are two big fires broke out during Yongle and jiajing reign, which destroys many of the buildings. Hong xi consider moving the capital back to nanjing but died just 8 months on the throne.

Yes, it is true that many died during building the great wall but it also saves many lives. If Qin shi huang never build such wall, many innocent lives could have been lose too. The great wall serves to slow down and sometimes prevent the invaders forces especially the xiongnu and Mongol. Many dynasty especially Ming invest large amount of money in building the wall.

Yes, it may have involved enormous costs to build the Forbidden Palace, but you mustn't forget that the palace in Nanjing was practically in ruins when Yongle ursurped the throne from Jianwen Di and besides it did provide jobs and salaries to those workers and craftsmen. Hongwu Di merely jumpstarted the economy of China again by emphasizing on the importance of agriculture as the country was practically left in ruins after so many years of conflict and wars between Hongwu, the Mongols and the various warlords. Plus agriculture was the only economy that the country had during that time. Simply put, Yongle didn't undermine the efforts of Hongwu's agricultural reforms by building the forbidden palace, though it may have strained the imperial coffers and thus imposing higher taxes on the common people. I'd say that Yongle's 5 expeditions to Mongolia probably cost even more than the building of the forbidden palace. Besides the belief that Yongle adopted 天子守邊， meaning that the emperor safegurding the main border to prevent further foreign invasion was a noble, just and right belief of a emperor.

Qin Shi Huang was able to repel Xiongnu's advances was merely because of the huge army (some 300,000 strong) that had been put in place with the Great wall led by General Meng Tian and not simply the Great wall itself. Even with the Great wall, if you refer to history it didn't stop the Xiong Nu from harrassing the Han Dynasty which came right after the Qin Dynasty, in fact the Xiong Nu was able to get around the Great wall so many numerous times that it rendered the Great wall almost useless. It didn't stop Kublai Khan or the rest of the foreign invaders before and after him to conquer parts or even whole of China, did it? Through just a handfull of victories that the Great wall may have scored against the foreign invaders and count the number of so called "foreign dynasties" like Jing, Yuan and Qing Dynasties other than the Han's established in China, I'd say the Great wall failed really miserably at defending China's soil from foreigners, don't you think?

The great wall serves to stop small raids and slow down large invaders forces. If it is so useless, why many dynasties after Qin continue to build and improve great wall. The Ming invest enormous sum of money into improving great wall . If it wasn't Wu sangui that open the gate, the manchu would not have been easily conquer china. I do realize the Manchu has break through the wall before but the great wall prevent the calvary crossing over. Qin, Song, Ming Empire fall not because the great wall was ineffective but it was defeated by internal problem.

I can't be alone in thinking that this "eunuchs caused the falls of empire" theorem had the most to do with the fact that confucians/gentry got to write history.

Yes, I'm awared of the likes of Zhao Gao, Cao Xue, Tian Lingsi, Wei Zhongxian, e.t.c... but their parts were arguably no more significant than a few loose screws in what already a breaking down machinary.

I think their damage was significant. The one you point was only the famous bad enunchs. Wei Zhongxian was the only one of the many eunuchs that hold great power. Many of the eunuchs holding important government position. For example, eunuchs controlling Ming secret services Jinyiwei 錦衣衛, 西廠 xichang, and Tu chang. Eliminating anyone that opposes them is an easy task.

Also, they are much closer to the Emperor which mean have greater influence compare to the confucians Ming official. The eunuchs like Wei Zhongxian influence on the Emperor lead to large unnessary spending. Emperor Wanli embzzing funds, lavish ceremony and left many government posts unfurfilled. Many eunuchs also steal government funds. This also one of main factor of the bankruptcy.