China History Forum, Chinese History Forum

Karakhan

May 8 2005, 09:39 PM

Lets get the ball rolling.

I happen to have a book right now with me called "The Jews and the Japanese" by Ben-Ami Shillony (1992) where there is alot of talk on Jews in Northern China and Shanghai.. some excerpts..

p. 178

QUOTE

The number of Jews in China is not great, but their influence on the Chinese economy is immense, and they maintain covert links with powerful Jewish politicians, businessmen, and journalists in the U.S., Britain, and other countries." It was this pragmatic principle of using Jewish power for the benefit of Japan that guided Japan's policy toward the Jews during World War II.

p. 181

QUOTE

While there were only a few Jews who stayed free in Japan during the war, tens of thousands came under Japanese rule on the Asian continent. When the Japanese occupied Manchuria in 1931, they found a thriving Jewish community of thirteen thousand, most of them in the city of Harbin. These were Russian Jews, some of of whom had settled there at the beginning of the century and others who had fled from the Russian revolution. The Harbin Jews led a rich communal life, maintaining several synagogues, religious schools, a Jewish hospital, two Jewish banks, and two Jewish journals.

p. 182

QUOTE

After the Japanese occupation, business opportunities worsened, and many Jews left Harbin for Shanghai and Tianjin, but the five thousand who remained were allowed to maintain their social and religious institutions. The Guandong army, which controlled Manchuria, was also in charge of the Jews. In 1933 the intelligence section of the Guandong army, the Tokumu Kikan, conducted a study of the Jews and reached the conclusion that although they were few in number, Manchurian Jews wielded considerable power and that it would therefore be in Japan's interest to treat them well. In December 1935 the Japanese consul general in Harbin, Sato Shoshiro, recommended to General Minami Jiro, the commander of the Guandong army, that Japan should treat the Jews well in order to attract their capital to Manchuria.

p. 182

QUOTE

... General Higuchi Kiichiro, chief of Guandong army's Special Branc, and Colonel Yasue Norihiro, the army's specialist of Jewish Affairs. Higuchi and Yasue allowed thousands of Jewish refugees to settle in Manchuria, and for this the Jewish community of Harbin inscribed their names in the Golden Book of the Jewish National Fund in Jerusalem. The German ambassador to Japan, Eugen Ott, protested the actions of Higuchi and Yasue, but the Japanese government ignored his protests.

p.186

QUOTE

Other Jewish refugees arrived in Shanghai by boat from Europe. Until the outbreak of the Pacific war about twenty-five thousand refugees settled there, joining a local Jewish population of five thousand that included several wealthy families from the Middle East, such as the Sassoons and the Kadoories, as well as Russian Jews. After the attack on Pearl Harbor, the Japanese occupied the whole city of Shanghai. At that time the thirty thousand Jews in the city constituted the largest foreign group there and the largest Jewish community that had ever come under Japanese control. No more refugees were allowed into the city, but those already there were not harmed

Yun

May 12 2005, 01:54 AM

According to S.A.M. Adshead, there is a great discrepancy between Jewish accounts of when their religion and people first came to China, and Chinese accounts of the Jews. A Jesuit recorded in the 17th century that the Chinese Jews believed that their first community arrived in the reign of Han Mingdi (58-75 AD), which would correspond to the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem by the Romans. However, a 1663 inscription in the Kaifeng synagogue claims that the religion has been in China since Zhou times.

However, in Chinese records there is no evidence of the religion having been around before the Song dynasty. It was not included in the proscription of foreign religions in 845, which included Nestorian Christianity, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, and Manichaeism. What we know is that there were Jewish communities in the port of Quanzhou and along the Silk Road by the time Marco Polo visited in the late 13th century, and there was a large Jewish community in Kaifeng by the time the Jesuits came in the 16th century.

Kaifeng has traditionally been the centre of the Jewish community in China since as early as 1163, when the first synagogue was built there. The Jews mentioned in the quotes by Karakhan probably migrated to China much later, in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

DavidG

Oct 18 2005, 02:41 AM

I heard from a friend that there is Jewish blood in Hakka (Kejia) people. Is that true? Are they related at all in any way? Thanks!

LYY

Oct 18 2005, 02:57 AM

I am a Hakka.

I like the notion of the "Jewish Chinese".
Probably the Hakka has suffered a lot by not owning a "land" of their own.
However, this has yet made Hakka a world class player in the financial world ...

urofpersia

Oct 18 2005, 03:02 AM

QUOTE(DavidG @ Oct 18 2005, 03:41 PM) [snapback]4765993[/snapback]

I heard from a friend that there is Jewish blood in Hakka (Kejia) people. Is that true? Are they related at all in any way? Thanks!

I'm Hakka and there are no relations that I am aware. However, comparisons have been made between the Jews and the Hakkas, could this be what you friend mean?

If you go back far enough we are all related...

DaMo

Oct 18 2005, 03:14 AM

There are some Jews around Kaifeng, and maybe Xi'an.

Hakka are basically Northern Han in origin. I doubt they have any more Jewish blood than the average Chinese.

Boarhuntr

Oct 18 2005, 06:42 AM

QUOTE(DavidG @ Oct 18 2005, 02:41 AM) [snapback]4765993[/snapback]

I heard from a friend that there is Jewish blood in Hakka (Kejia) people. Is that true? Are they related at all in any way? Thanks!

The Hakka migration from the Northern Plains to South China dates from the Age of Fragmentation. Correct me if I'm wrong. Specifically it was during the Wu Hu Luan Hua period, when China was invaded by the Northern nomads that Chinese collectively called the "Hu Ren".
The Jews of Kaifeng I think date back to the Song dynasty or perhaps the Tang dynasty, when many Middle Easterners came to China to trade and sojourn. The Jews were a small minority and very unlikely to have passed on their genes to make a difference. Certainly not as much as the Hui, or Muslims, who hail mainly from India, Iran, Afghanistan and the Arab countries.
In pure numbers the Muslims of China, collectively called the Hui Min, are a significant number, probably numbering in the 10's of millions. The Jews of Kaifeng have pretty much blown away by the winds of history and only fragments of them exist today, and not even in pure form, having been totally assimillated.

Boarhuntr

urofpersia

Oct 18 2005, 08:52 AM

QUOTE(Boarhuntr @ Oct 18 2005, 07:42 PM) [snapback]4766045[/snapback]

The Hakka migration from the Northern Plains to South China dates from the Age of Fragmentation. Correct me if I'm wrong. Specifically it was during the Wu Hu Luan Hua period, when China was invaded by the Northern nomads that Chinese collectively called the "Hu Ren".

There is already a thread in CHF on the origin of the Hakka. I am sure some of the more knowledgeable members will come in to direct you to the old one.

Suffice to say the origins of the Hakka is still under debate. There are some theories which are more popular especially among those of Hakka descent themselves but personally I have yet to see any conclusive evidence that convinces me one way or the others.

Too hi Fat

Oct 18 2005, 08:58 AM

Don't tell Adolf that Hakka are related to the Jews ... SHHHH!

This is the first time I have heard someone said this. Wonder where this idea comes from.

P.S Hakka are not that great at finance. Hakka are the best at growing stuff and industrial minded. Teochew ... now those guys are friggin business master. Did you know that if you are born teochew you automatically get a 2 year exemption off a 4 year Bachelor of Business ? IT'S TRUE!

qrasy

Oct 18 2005, 09:30 AM

QUOTE(DavidG @ Oct 18 2005, 03:41 PM) [snapback]4765993[/snapback]

I heard from a friend that there is Jewish blood in Hakka (Kejia) people. Is that true? Are they related at all in any way? Thanks!

??? I don't know. There are probably Jewish blood in every race in the world

QUOTE(LYY @ Oct 18 2005, 03:57 PM) [snapback]4765996[/snapback]

I like the notion of the "Jewish Chinese".
Probably the Hakka has suffered a lot by not owning a "land" of their own.
However, this has yet made Hakka a world class player in the financial world ...

QUOTE(urofpersia @ Oct 18 2005, 04:02 PM) [snapback]4765999[/snapback]

I'm Hakka and there are no relations that I am aware. However, comparisons have been made between the Jews and the Hakkas, could this be what you friend mean?

Yeah, perhaps it's the analogy between Jews and Hakkas, but no close relationship.

QUOTE(DaMo @ Oct 18 2005, 04:14 PM) [snapback]4766002[/snapback]

There are some Jews around Kaifeng, and maybe Xi'an.

I've heard there were once hundreds of thousands of Jew in Henan, is it true?

QUOTE

Hakka are basically Northern Han in origin. I doubt they have any more Jewish blood than the average Chinese.

QUOTE(Boarhuntr @ Oct 18 2005, 07:42 PM) [snapback]4766045[/snapback]

The Hakka migration from the Northern Plains to South China dates from the Age of Fragmentation. Correct me if I'm wrong. Specifically it was during the Wu Hu Luan Hua period, when China was invaded by the Northern nomads that Chinese collectively called the "Hu Ren".

Hakka likes to say they are the original Chinese that migrated from North, but I never know any Hakka said to be "Northern Han" Chinese. They even claim that the Northerner have considerable "Hu" heritage..

QUOTE

The Jews of Kaifeng I think date back to the Song dynasty or perhaps the Tang dynasty, when many Middle Easterners came to China to trade and sojourn. The Jews were a small minority and very unlikely to have passed on their genes to make a difference.

I heard here were several hundred thousand!! There were so many! But maybe it will not affect Chinese too much.

QUOTE

Certainly not as much as the Hui, or Muslims, who hail mainly from India, Iran, Afghanistan and the Arab countries.
In pure numbers the Muslims of China, collectively called the Hui Min, are a significant number, probably numbering in the 10's of millions. The Jews of Kaifeng have pretty much blown away by the winds of history and only fragments of them exist today, and not even in pure form, having been totally assimillated.

Even the most Jew today seem mixed with Europeans.. I wonder if there are still relatively-pure Jews in the world nowadays.

General_Zhaoyun

Oct 18 2005, 11:21 AM

Check out this link on the history of Jews in China...

http://chinese-school.netfirms.com/Jews.html

Archaelogical evidence suggests that Jews were in China as early as the 8th Century, having arrived from Persia along the Silk Road. In 1163 the Emperor ordered the Jews to live in Kaifeng, where they built the first Chinese synagogue. Marco Polo recorded that Kublai Khan celebrated the festivals of the Muslims, Christians and Jews, indicating that there were a significant number of Jews in China in the 13th Century.

A Ming Emperor conferred on the Jews seven surnames - Ai, Lao, Jin, Li, Shi, Zhang and Zhao. To this day Chinese Jews will only have one of these seven names. Christian missionaries also recorded meetings with Chinese Jews. At least one synagogue was constructed, and the community was active for about eight centuries. Currently, the Vatican holds letters from Jesuits in the 18th Century describing the daily life and religious practices of Jews in Kaifeng, and drawings of their synagogue.

Westerners lost touch with Kaifeng Jews in the mid-1700s. It was not until 1900 that an effort was made to re-establish contact.

In the late 19th century, Russian Jewish communities were founded in Harbin, Tianjin and elsewhere. The project to construct a Russian railway to East Asia was centered in Harbin. Anxious to populate the city, the Russian government provided incentives to minorities, including Jews and Karaites, to settle there. In the early years of the 20th century, Jews fleeing pogroms in the Pale of Settlement and demobilized soldiers from the Russo-Japanese War joined them, raising the Jewish population of Harbin to approximately 8,000 by 1908. The Russian Revolution of 1917 practically doubled the size of the community, and served as a stimulus to Zionist activism. Japanese annexation in 1931 brought increased restrictions on many facets of life, and many Jews left for free countries. Most of the Russian Jews remaining at the end of World War II emigrated to the West. Some were repatriated, both voluntarily and involuntarily, to the Soviet Union.

The development of the port city of Shanghai as a Jewish center parallels that of Hong Kong. Sephardi families from Baghdad, Bombay and Cairo, including the Kadoories, Sassons and Hardoons, established a communal structure in Shanghai in the 19th century. By 1903, there were three synagogues in the city, and the number of Jews totaled to 30,000. However, most of them fled when the Communists took over in 1959.

The Chinese government now recognizes Jews as an official Chinese ethnic group. On Sept. 29, 2000, Rosh Hashanah services were held at the Ohel Rachel Synagogue for the first time in nearly 50 years. There are also a Jewish library and a Jewish museum in the city.

Ed Ziomek

Oct 18 2005, 07:24 PM

David G, General Z, several others, thanks for this thread.

GZ... you mentioned Shanghai and the Jews there. Isn't Shanghai next to Nanking? It would be interesting to see how foreigners, possibly Jewish types... how they faired during the WW2 years.

I think I already know the answer... everyone was treated badly!?!

Great thread.

General_Zhaoyun

Oct 18 2005, 08:53 PM

QUOTE(Ed Ziomek @ Oct 19 2005, 08:24 AM) [snapback]4766153[/snapback]

David G, General Z, several others, thanks for this thread.

GZ... you mentioned Shanghai and the Jews there. Isn't Shanghai next to Nanking? It would be interesting to see how foreigners, possibly Jewish types... how they faired during the WW2 years.

I think I already know the answer... everyone was treated badly!?!

Great thread.

Shanghai is not next to Nanking. It is about 100 km away from Nanking (reckon 4 hours drive from Nanking)

MengTzu

Oct 18 2005, 09:45 PM

QUOTE(Too hi Fat @ Oct 18 2005, 01:58 PM) [snapback]4766060[/snapback]

Don't tell Adolf that Hakka are related to the Jews ... SHHHH!

This is the first time I have heard someone said this. Wonder where this idea comes from.

P.S Hakka are not that great at finance. Hakka are the best at growing stuff and industrial minded. Teochew ... now those guys are friggin business master. Did you know that if you are born teochew you automatically get a 2 year exemption off a 4 year Bachelor of Business ? IT'S TRUE!

Does this apply to America? Cuz I was thinking may be I want to get my law degree and my MBA together (joint program.) I didn't wanna do that cuz I don't want too much work (hehe.) Since I'm half Teochow, does it mean I can get one year exemption? Oh wait, you said Bachelor, not MBA. Darn it. Nevermind.

DavidG

Oct 18 2005, 11:50 PM

Thanks to all of you who have answered my post :-)

Appreciate that!

The conclusion is that there are no specific link between Hakka and Jews. But then again, some of us Chinese might have Jewish blood in us due to the intermarriages and migration over the years of both Chinese and Jews who have resided in China since the 8th century

QUOTE(General_Zhaoyun @ Oct 19 2005, 02:21 AM) [snapback]4766098[/snapback]

Check out this link on the history of Jews in China...

http://chinese-school.netfirms.com/Jews.html

Archaelogical evidence suggests that Jews were in China as early as the 8th Century, having arrived from Persia along the Silk Road. In 1163 the Emperor ordered the Jews to live in Kaifeng, where they built the first Chinese synagogue. Marco Polo recorded that Kublai Khan celebrated the festivals of the Muslims, Christians and Jews, indicating that there were a significant number of Jews in China in the 13th Century.

A Ming Emperor conferred on the Jews seven surnames - Ai, Lao, Jin, Li, Shi, Zhang and Zhao. To this day Chinese Jews will only have one of these seven names. Christian missionaries also recorded meetings with Chinese Jews. At least one synagogue was constructed, and the community was active for about eight centuries. Currently, the Vatican holds letters from Jesuits in the 18th Century describing the daily life and religious practices of Jews in Kaifeng, and drawings of their synagogue.

Westerners lost touch with Kaifeng Jews in the mid-1700s. It was not until 1900 that an effort was made to re-establish contact.

In the late 19th century, Russian Jewish communities were founded in Harbin, Tianjin and elsewhere. The project to construct a Russian railway to East Asia was centered in Harbin. Anxious to populate the city, the Russian government provided incentives to minorities, including Jews and Karaites, to settle there. In the early years of the 20th century, Jews fleeing pogroms in the Pale of Settlement and demobilized soldiers from the Russo-Japanese War joined them, raising the Jewish population of Harbin to approximately 8,000 by 1908. The Russian Revolution of 1917 practically doubled the size of the community, and served as a stimulus to Zionist activism. Japanese annexation in 1931 brought increased restrictions on many facets of life, and many Jews left for free countries. Most of the Russian Jews remaining at the end of World War II emigrated to the West. Some were repatriated, both voluntarily and involuntarily, to the Soviet Union.

The development of the port city of Shanghai as a Jewish center parallels that of Hong Kong. Sephardi families from Baghdad, Bombay and Cairo, including the Kadoories, Sassons and Hardoons, established a communal structure in Shanghai in the 19th century. By 1903, there were three synagogues in the city, and the number of Jews totaled to 30,000. However, most of them fled when the Communists took over in 1959.

The Chinese government now recognizes Jews as an official Chinese ethnic group. On Sept. 29, 2000, Rosh Hashanah services were held at the Ohel Rachel Synagogue for the first time in nearly 50 years. There are also a Jewish library and a Jewish museum in the city.

qrasy

Oct 19 2005, 02:49 AM

QUOTE(General_Zhaoyun @ Oct 19 2005, 12:21 AM) [snapback]4766098[/snapback]

The Chinese government now recognizes Jews as an official Chinese ethnic group.

I want to ask you: What ethnicity now do P.R. of China assign to Jews? Is it Hui Zu? Han Zu? Man Zu?

General_Zhaoyun

Oct 20 2005, 12:36 PM

QUOTE(qrasy @ Oct 19 2005, 03:49 PM) [snapback]4766244[/snapback]

I want to ask you: What ethnicity now do P.R. of China assign to Jews? Is it Hui Zu? Han Zu? Man Zu?

The chinese jews are called Han Zu (han-chinese), because many have actually intermingled and mixed into the han-chinese. The han-chinese are in fact a mixed 'ethnic group' absorbing other foreign ethnicity into them.

There is a chinese article about history of Jews in China at
http://www.china.org.cn/chinese/ch-yuwai/187324.htm

浪淘音

Oct 20 2005, 05:04 PM

i love how you guys assume any ethnic group small or large moving into China(temporarily or permanently) automatically mixes with the general Han population so basically we're all of a sudden "jewish". The jews who moved into China came as merchants (no different than the international bussinessman today). even if some of them intermarried, its laughable how you guys think jewish blood would diffuse into every single han

this type of mumbo jumbo is almost as bad as nazi race science(its just as extreme, only difference is that it is in the opposite direction)

i know an algerian guy who visited China, i guess we all have algerian blood now

by the way General Zhaoyun, every single ethnic group today is mixed in some way. i'd like for you to show me genetic studies that prove Han are more mixed than others. studies of Y chromosome haplogroups are relatively consistent in both North and Southern Han.

MengTzu

Oct 20 2005, 05:20 PM

QUOTE(浪淘音 @ Oct 20 2005, 10:04 PM) [snapback]4766576[/snapback]

i love how you guys assume any ethnic group small or large moving into China(temporarily or permanently) automatically mixes with the general Han population so basically we're all of a sudden "jewish". The jews who moved into China came as merchants (no different than the international bussinessman today). even if some of them intermarried, its laughable how you guys think jewish blood would diffuse into every single han

Nobody here at all suggests this. The only thing similar was said by Damo: that Hakka is no more Jewish than any other Chinese ethnicity. But this does not mean that every Chinese is Jewish -- it means that Hakka is NO MORE Jewish than any other Chinese ethnicity. I'm no more Divine than you, but that doesn't mean we are both Divine -- neither of us is, but the statement that I'm no more so is still true.

Read very carefully before responding next time.

QUOTE(qrasy @ Oct 18 2005, 02:30 PM) [snapback]4766079[/snapback]

Even the most Jew today seem mixed with Europeans.. I wonder if there are still relatively-pure Jews in the world nowadays.

Be very careful about your wording. There is no such thing as "Jewish blood." Jewishness is, above all, a religious heritage. Anyone, such as you and I, can convert to Judaism and become true Jews, according to Orthodox Judaism (we won't have a tribal affiliation, but we would nonetheless be Israelites.) Unlike some religions where religious identity is obtained only through conversion, Judaism has another means in addition: that a person born of a Jewish mother is automatically a Jew, and has no need of conversion if I'm not mistaken. But this doesn't mean Jewishness is a blood (for example, having a Gentile father and a Jewish mother doesn't make a person half-Jewish -- he's fully Jewish.) Thus Jewishness is strictly a religious definition according to Orthodox Judaism.

You need to be careful especially since the Nazi argued that Jewishness is a race, and this idea has been discredited by both religious Judaism (which obviously holds different definitions) and secular academia (which doesn't want any affiliation with Nazism, besides finding the Nazi definition impossible.) Let's not open the can of worms known as Nazism that was opened recently on CHF.

Ziwei

Nov 9 2005, 02:59 AM

QUOTE(Too hi Fat @ Oct 18 2005, 09:58 PM) [snapback]4766060[/snapback]

Don't tell Adolf that Hakka are related to the Jews ... SHHHH!

This is the first time I have heard someone said this. Wonder where this idea comes from.

P.S Hakka are not that great at finance. Hakka are the best at growing stuff and industrial minded. Teochew ... now those guys are friggin business master. Did you know that if you are born teochew you automatically get a 2 year exemption off a 4 year Bachelor of Business ? IT'S TRUE!

I'm a pure teochew from at least 3 generations on both sides of my parentage. May i know where can i find more info abt this 'exemption' ? haha sounds like a gooodie way to get exemptions and i'm curious abt it

Never knew i'm goodat business though

TMPikachu

Nov 9 2005, 03:03 PM

"There is no such thing as "Jewish blood." Jewishness is, above all, a religious heritage. "

I think that in theory, yeah, but I feel that in practice, there is something that could be called 'jewish blood'

It's like... the Norse Gods. Only the nordic people followed the norse gods, it was a sort of regional thing that a certain people indentified with

well, nowadays I guess somebody can 'convert' to being Jewish, but I still feel like there is definitely something that can be called Jewish blood.

warlordgeneral

Nov 10 2005, 12:36 AM

QUOTE(浪淘音 @ Oct 20 2005, 02:04 PM) [snapback]4766576[/snapback]

i love how you guys assume any ethnic group small or large moving into China(temporarily or permanently) automatically mixes with the general Han population so basically we're all of a sudden "jewish". The jews who moved into China came as merchants (no different than the international bussinessman today). even if some of them intermarried, its laughable how you guys think jewish blood would diffuse into every single han

LOL. I just love how you're so efficient at putting words into other people's mouths, believe in your own wrong interpretation, and then go off tangent and rant about some nonsense like we were all dumb as hell or something and suddenly you're the master anthropologist. Seriously, who the heck ever said anything about the Han "all of a sudden "jewish"? He said "many have actually intermingled and mixed into the han-chinese. The han-chinese are in fact a mixed 'ethnic group' absorbing other foreign ethnicity into them". All he's saying is that there are members of mixed blood within the so-called Han ethnic group, nothing on their numbers alone or relative to the whole "Han population". And then you suddenly take it all personal, like you absolutely despise being of mixed blood or something or that those mixed Han Chinese are necessarily you. Freaking hilarious.

QUOTE(浪淘音 @ Oct 20 2005, 02:04 PM) [snapback]4766576[/snapback]

this type of mumbo jumbo is almost as bad as nazi race science(its just as extreme, only difference is that it is in the opposite direction)

Sure is - your mumbo jumbo that is. And I'm sure your nationalistic agenda and you showing a constant need to equate people who respond to your racial questions as all dull lefties is not "mumbo jumbo" while you pride on your ultra-rightist beliefs. And I'm also sure that you indirectly showing an extreme dislike at being a possibly mixed Han and contempt for non-Han (don't play little games with me, if you want I can even quote directly from other forums you go to that show your bias and dislike for non-Han Chinese groups; I also forgot to add in "non-northern Han" now that I remember your rant about the southern Han supposedly being "less Han") is not your own version of your so-called "nazi race science".

We suggested that some Han-Chinese absorbed other ethnicities into the Han ethnic group and then you immediately go off on a tangent and somehow interpret that as "every Han Chinese are mixed with all kinds of blood". He never mentioned anything about every single Han or even most Han being of mixed blood, just that the Han "ethnic group" contains members of what would otherwise not be considered of "Han ethnicity", ie Khitans, Jurchens, etc. That doesn't we all believe that every single Han has Khitan, Jurchens, etc. It just means that a part of the Han population has members who are distant descendants of those ethnic groups. It seems like concepts such as numbers and majority are foreign to you, that you somehow can't seem to see that they aren't necessarily implied nor are they mentioned, but that people are simply stating a fact that the Han population contains members who are distant descendants of those non-Han groups, not even coming close to stating that all Han people are mixed with all kinds of blood.

QUOTE(浪淘音 @ Oct 20 2005, 02:04 PM) [snapback]4766576[/snapback]

by the way General Zhaoyun, every single ethnic group today is mixed in some way. i'd like for you to show me genetic studies that prove Han are more mixed than others. studies of Y chromosome haplogroups are relatively consistent in both North and Southern Han.

No one ever said that the Han were "more mixed" than others. They were strictly talking about Han, unlike you who loves to go off-topic and put words into other people's mouths.

Oh yea, you can cut the crap about the "personal vendetta" BS or whatever. I responded because I felt like putting some sense into people who litter threads with their nationalistic BS.

Yun

Nov 10 2005, 12:59 AM

Warlordgeneral, cool it. Personal attacks on another member are never justified no matter how racist or ultranationalistic that member may seem to you. Next time, report the post to the staff and let them deal with it. Yang Zongbao has already given you an official warning for flaming 浪淘音 on another thread.

DavidG and Boarhuntr,

The theory that the Hakka first migrated from the north at the beginning of the Age of Fragmentation, and that the Hakka language is more like ancient Chinese than other dialects, is not beyond question. I encourage you to read this long thread on the Hakka: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=6774

Especially the first few posts and the last post by myself citing Leong Sow-theng's arguments. Leong believes that the Hakka migration occurred mainly in the Southern Song, and that the Hakka language was actually a southern language spoken by the She people in that area even before the Hakka moved in.

shunyadragon

Nov 13 2005, 04:18 AM

QUOTE(urofpersia @ Oct 18 2005, 04:02 PM) [snapback]4765999[/snapback]

I'm Hakka and there are no relations that I am aware. However, comparisons have been made between the Jews and the Hakkas, could this be what you friend mean?

If you go back far enough we are all related...

The blood relationship between the Hakka and the Hebrew tribes is basically all humanity are cousins and we have the same blood relationships. This si the simplest true principle that is tough for people to realize.

urofpersia

Nov 13 2005, 09:35 AM

QUOTE(Yun @ Nov 10 2005, 01:59 PM) [snapback]4769477[/snapback]

DavidG and Boarhuntr,

The theory that the Hakka first migrated from the north at the beginning of the Age of Fragmentation, and that the Hakka language is more like ancient Chinese than other dialects, is not beyond question. I encourage you to read this long thread on the Hakka: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=6774

Especially the first few posts and the last post by myself citing Leong Sow-theng's arguments. Leong believes that the Hakka migration occurred mainly in the Southern Song, and that the Hakka language was actually a southern language spoken by the She people in that area even before the Hakka moved in.

I quite agree with Yun. Leong Sow-theng is not the only one with an alternative theory, one which I happen to think have more than a grain of truth to it. Given my limited reading at the moment, Hakka as an ethnicity certainly was an intermingling of both Han and She (or Bai Yue's descendants in Southern China) I havent read enough to say whether the Hakka migration was mainly only during the Southern Song, but my recent readings suggests 客 ke as a term used to describe what became the Hakka people was first used during the Song dynasty (North or South I cant remember) and not in Ming or Early Qing as I previously thought. Once I feel I have done enough reading I may share my thoughts on the Hakka thread, but probably not anytime soon due to too much travelling.

The problem with researching into the origins of the Hakka is there is an undercurrent of Hakka chauvinism or in some cases scholars taking what has been 'established' before without questioning whether could the information be wrong so there is quite a bit of published material which lists down the origin of the Hakka as from the Western Jin (西晋） as fact. In a way I guess it is unavoidable and a lot of history is like that.

Ah_Yew

May 16 2006, 08:17 AM

QUOTE(DavidG @ Oct 18 2005, 01:41 AM) [snapback]4765993[/snapback]

I heard from a friend that there is Jewish blood in Hakka (Kejia) people. Is that true? Are they related at all in any way? Thanks!

Please could you tell me the source of your friend's information. I am very interested to find out more.

I am Chinese Hakka. Both my parents are Hakkas. Both sets of grand-parents are Hakkas. My father says his family did not mix with other ethnic groups and therefore are 'Han' Chinese. I believe that's just his racial pride talking. However, I always suspected my maternal grandmother had Jewish blood. When asked, she did not know where her family origins were in China. She was illiterate and due to many immigrations of her ancesters ended up in Malaysia. She is dead now, of course.

lifezard

Jul 25 2006, 05:09 AM

QUOTE(MengTzu @ Oct 21 2005, 06:20 AM) [snapback]4766580[/snapback]

Nobody here at all suggests this. The only thing similar was said by Damo: that Hakka is no more Jewish than any other Chinese ethnicity. But this does not mean that every Chinese is Jewish -- it means that Hakka is NO MORE Jewish than any other Chinese ethnicity. I'm no more Divine than you, but that doesn't mean we are both Divine -- neither of us is, but the statement that I'm no more so is still true.

Read very carefully before responding next time.
Be very careful about your wording. There is no such thing as "Jewish blood." Jewishness is, above all, a religious heritage. Anyone, such as you and I, can convert to Judaism and become true Jews, according to Orthodox Judaism (we won't have a tribal affiliation, but we would nonetheless be Israelites.) Unlike some religions where religious identity is obtained only through conversion, Judaism has another means in addition: that a person born of a Jewish mother is automatically a Jew, and has no need of conversion if I'm not mistaken. But this doesn't mean Jewishness is a blood (for example, having a Gentile father and a Jewish mother doesn't make a person half-Jewish -- he's fully Jewish.) Thus Jewishness is strictly a religious definition according to Orthodox Judaism.

You need to be careful especially since the Nazi argued that Jewishness is a race, and this idea has been discredited by both religious Judaism (which obviously holds different definitions) and secular academia (which doesn't want any affiliation with Nazism, besides finding the Nazi definition impossible.) Let's not open the can of worms known as Nazism that was opened recently on CHF.

pardon me for asking... for I have not seen a person in modern day who does that... is it true that one can convert to Judaism and hence become a Jew? much like 1 can covert to Christianity or Islam?

because I ve always thought being Jewish means you have to be related by blood all the way back to Abraham?

will appreciate any clarification

sg_han

Jul 25 2006, 06:47 AM

QUOTE(lifezard @ Jul 25 2006, 06:09 PM) [snapback]4829085[/snapback]

pardon me for asking... for I have not seen a person in modern day who does that... is it true that one can convert to Judaism and hence become a Jew? much like 1 can covert to Christianity or Islam?

because I ve always thought being Jewish means you have to be related by blood all the way back to Abraham?

will appreciate any clarification

ya you can ...you can define a jew by his race or in terms of religion

there are singaporean christian converts to judaism ...

Elisha

Jul 25 2006, 08:26 AM

QUOTE(sg_han @ Jul 25 2006, 07:47 PM) [snapback]4829097[/snapback]

ya you can ...you can define a jew by his race or in terms of religion

there are singaporean christian converts to judaism ...

Yup, except that in practice, it seems that race has a priority.

An aside. For example, jews who believe in Jesus as their Messiah are known as Messianic Jews or Christians. As I understand it, they are referred more as Messianic Jews. But I think perhaps this is an exception in the terminology - more of an indication of their conversion. They also seem to recognise themselves first as Jews - descendants of Abraham.

urofpersia

Jul 25 2006, 12:49 PM

QUOTE(lifezard @ Jul 25 2006, 06:09 PM) [snapback]4829085[/snapback]

pardon me for asking... for I have not seen a person in modern day who does that... is it true that one can convert to Judaism and hence become a Jew? much like 1 can covert to Christianity or Islam?

because I ve always thought being Jewish means you have to be related by blood all the way back to Abraham?

will appreciate any clarification

You can convert to Judaism. The details I am not familiar with but I have this on authority from friends in the US because I asked the very same question quite some years ago.

lanjingling

Aug 10 2006, 08:56 PM

You can convert to judaism, but it's very difficult :it took a guy i know 3 years of studies of the bible to be accepted as a jew by the jewish priests - that may be a reason why so few people convert to judaism.

ahxiang

Aug 10 2006, 09:51 PM

QUOTE(General_Zhaoyun @ Oct 20 2005, 10:36 AM) [snapback]4766541[/snapback]

The chinese jews are called Han Zu (han-chinese), because many have actually intermingled and mixed into the han-chinese. The han-chinese are in fact a mixed 'ethnic group' absorbing other foreign ethnicity into them.

There is a chinese article about history of Jews in China at
http://www.china.org.cn/chinese/ch-yuwai/187324.htm

General Zhao Yun, I don't know how you could have been misled on the 'Jew' matter. Anybody could post a thread, saying " I have heard that Hakka was related to Italians. Anybody have any to contribute?"

The Jew matter could probably be a closed case after reading Sidney Rittenberg the American communist who came to serve in China's civil wars in late 1940s. He tried his best to revive the Jew topic of Kaifeng, a city that had been destroyed by wars and Yellow River floods numerous times in history. It would be a real crap to think any Jews could actually have survived and still live in Kaifeng of Henan today. The possible attachment to a 'Jewish' heritage in Kaifeng and China at large could be purely speculative and circumvential.

In any case, should any Jews have come to China in Tang Dynasty, they were merged into Muslim herds and became indistinguiishable from the Islam. As someone already pointed out, Hakka had come to southern China in 3-4th century AD, much earlier than Tang Dynasty. Hakka, literally meaning 'guest dweller', was not an ethnic terminology.

In Central Asia, it took hundreds of years for Buddhists and Muslims to fight out the war. HINDU KUSH, another area of conflict, literally meant for the Blood of the Hindus, showed how bloody the wars between two religions were. Anyone who imagined that some Jews could slipped through the Islam-Buddhism power struggles must be day-dreaming.

As a side note, there are few Hakkas, or White supremacists pretending to be Hakka, who had been spreading a non-Mongoloid origin of Chinese since year 2000.

Should you find 'modern Jews' in China, please note that White Russians who fled to China for asylum, had been mostly Jews. After Russian Jews, European Jews had come to China. Not to mention the Jews who came to China in 18th-19th century trading Opiums. The Jewish damage to China was and is OPIUM. Their HK firm which was notorious for opium trade of 1840s, still exists in HK today. The Jew-Opium connection should serve as a warning to you guys how they rode on White colonialist gunboats and warships in causing havoc to China, and in another sense, havoc to Beirut today. I would like to ask you guys to avoid the blind affiliation here. Should any real Chinese 'Jew' be capable of presenting some written evidence, like a family lineage book, we could discuss this topic further on a case by case basis.

lanjingling

Aug 10 2006, 10:12 PM

QUOTE(ahxiang @ Aug 10 2006, 08:51 PM) [snapback]4835252[/snapback]

The Jewish damage to China was and is OPIUM. Their HK firm which was notorious for opium trade of 1840s, still exists in HK today. The Jew-Opium connection should serve as a warning to you guys how they rode on White colonialist gunboats and warships in causing havoc to China, and in another sense, havoc to Beirut today.

What kind of warning, pray tell ?

felixthecat

Aug 10 2006, 11:35 PM

QUOTE(ahxiang @ Aug 10 2006, 09:51 PM) [snapback]4835252[/snapback]

Not to mention the Jews who came to China in 18th-19th century trading Opiums. The Jewish damage to China was and is OPIUM. Their HK firm which was notorious for opium trade of 1840s, still exists in HK today. The Jew-Opium connection should serve as a warning to you guys how they rode on White colonialist gunboats and warships in causing havoc to China, and in another sense, havoc to Beirut today. I would like to ask you guys to avoid the blind affiliation here.

Major Chinese news media outlets rarely report this historic fact in regard to Jew's deadly sins in Opium Trade devastated China for nearly 1 century,rather often elevate Jews for how they excelled in education and commerce plus their frugality.

British Jew Benjimin D'Israel was the Prime Minister of England during Queen Victoria's reign,he encouraged QV to militarily annexed India as part of British Empire.I wonder if he had " deadly hands " in the sinful opium trade in those years.

Yun

Aug 11 2006, 12:25 AM

QUOTE

Probably madman Adolf Hitler realized Jews deadly sins could brought destruction to European race.

Chinese need to wake up to the REAL TRUTH,not ignorantly put Jews in baseless high regard.

That reference to Hitler is very insensitive to victims of the Holocaust. Please refrain from making such statements. Criticism of Israel over the war in Lebanon should not go to the extreme of demonizing the Jewish people as a whole. We wouldn't like to see criticism of China over Tibet to extend to demonizing the Chinese people or justifying the Nanjing Massacre, after all.

QUOTE

The Jew matter could probably be a closed case after reading Sidney Rittenberg the American communist who came to serve in China's civil wars in late 1940s. He tried his best to revive the Jew topic of Kaifeng, a city that had been destroyed by wars and Yellow River floods numerous times in history. It would be a real crap to think any Jews could actually have survived and still live in Kaifeng of Henan today. The possible attachment to a 'Jewish' heritage in Kaifeng and China at large could be purely speculative and circumvential.

The presence of a Jewish community in Kaifeng was attested by the Jesuits including Matteo Ricci. The Jewish synagogue in Kaifeng was indeed destroyed by floods in 1461 and 1642, but the community itself survived. There are still 200-300 people claiming Jewish descent in Kaifeng today, although they have lost the use of their language and the practice of ther religion. In a letter to the recent July issue of the Chinese Heritage magazine (published in the PRC), a reader from Kaifeng reported the views of an Israeli expert on Judaic studies: the 'Jews of Kaifeng' are not regarded as true Jews by the Jews in Israel, because they have lost touch with Jewish culture and have no reliable records to prove that their mothers were Jewish (which is the criterion for judging if a person is Jewish and entitled to return to Israel).

lanjingling

Aug 11 2006, 09:33 PM

QUOTE(felixthecat @ Aug 10 2006, 10:35 PM) [snapback]4835312[/snapback]

Major Chinese news media outlets rarely report this historic fact in regard to Jew's deadly sins in Opium Trade devastated China for nearly 1 century,rather often elevate Jews for how they excelled in education and commerce plus their frugality.

British Jew Benjimin D'Israel was the Prime Minister of England during Queen Victoria's reign,he encouraged QV to militarily annexed India as part of British Empire.I wonder if he had " deadly hands " in the sinful opium trade in those years.

Moderators : I've retracted by deleting my insensitive statements directed at all Jews.

Actually you haven't retracted, since you say "Disraeli was jewish, so i wonder if he had " deadly hands " in the sinful opium trade in those years", implying that ALL jews have big chances to be connected to the "sinful trade".
FYI, Disraeli had converted to protestantism as a child, so, for you, judaism is not a religion or a culture, but a race ?

ahxiang

Aug 11 2006, 09:40 PM

Yun,

I was merely trying to something 'cease & desist' as far as some wannabe Chinese attempt at affliating with high nose bridge people while they could not tell the Jew from among the high nose bridge people. (Related to differentiating among high nose bridge would be the ignorance of today's Chinese in telling the color of eyes. Today, almost all Chinese men and women writers wrote about 'blue' eyes in any scenario linking to Americans, Jews, or Europeans. I was surprised to find out that Chinese of 60-70 years ago knew much more than today's Chinese. In several WWII related books, including Frank Dorn's book, Chinese firmly believed that Americans did not have blue eyes, while those 'Europeans' with blue eyes must be WHITE RUSSIAN SPIES.)

And, I strongly advocate a substantiation of historical quotes by looking for the source materials, no matter how many hundred years ago. I do not buy whatever Marco Polo said about this or that, or Mateo Ricci said about the 'Chinese Jews' this or that. -Serious students of history need to find the original documents to accertain the claims or quotes.

As to the Jew and Opium, you may want to take a look at
http://www.gaycourter.com/FIBQA.htm

Q. How did the Jewish merchants become involved in this trade?

A. The Sassoons were among several Jewish merchants (the Sassoons in my book are entirely fictional, by the way) who joined with Indian and British merchants (most notably Jardine Matheson) as middlemen. The British owned the rights to the poppy crops, then conducted wholesale auctions in Calcutta. It was up to the enterprising merchants to get the chests of opium into the Inner Land of China and mark up the price accordingly along the way. Don’t forget that other merchants were bringing legal opium to other parts of the world like England (where the artistic set including Coleridge and De Quincy made it famous) and the United States. In the early part of the nineteenth century the Yankee Clipper opium traders included the progenitors of prestigious American families with names like Astor, Forbes, Perkins, and Cabot.

lanjingling

Aug 11 2006, 10:26 PM

QUOTE(ahxiang @ Aug 11 2006, 08:40 PM) [snapback]4835683[/snapback]

I strongly advocate a substantiation of historical quotes by looking for the source materials, no matter how many hundred years ago. -Serious students of history need to find the original documents to accertain the claims or quotes.

As to the Jew and Opium, you may want to take a look at
http://www.gaycourter.com/FIBQA.htm

That's funny, because Gay Courter is not an historian, but a writer who uses 2nd-hand sources, so you contradict yourself here

BTW, you didn't answered my question " What kind of warning ?"

Yun

Aug 11 2006, 11:15 PM

QUOTE

In several WWII related books, including Frank Dorn's book, Chinese firmly believed that Americans did not have blue eyes, while those 'Europeans' with blue eyes must be WHITE RUSSIAN SPIES.

Don't blondes tend to have blue eyes, no matter what country they're from? It's true blondeness is not found in Jews, but I don't see why Americans can't be blonde.

QUOTE

And, I strongly advocate a substantiation of historical quotes by looking for the source materials, no matter how many hundred years ago. I do not buy whatever Marco Polo said about this or that, or Mateo Ricci said about the 'Chinese Jews' this or that.

Are you saying you will only accept the quote if I give the name of Matteo Ricci's book, or that even if Matteo Ricci said it, you don't believe him? Your two sentences seem to be giving different messages.

The reference is Ricci's Opera Storiche del P. Matteo Ricci. I can't read Italian and I have not read the book, but it is cited in another book I have.

urofpersia

Aug 12 2006, 12:04 AM

QUOTE

As a side note, there are few Hakkas, or White supremacists pretending to be Hakka, who had been spreading a non-Mongoloid origin of Chinese since year 2000.

Darn it, I never knew those White Supremacists would resort to disguising themselves as Hakkas, stealing our identities and spreading lies in our names. I must report this to my clan association at once!

Ho, Silver!

felixthecat

Aug 12 2006, 12:11 AM

QUOTE(urofpersia @ Aug 12 2006, 12:04 AM) [snapback]4835759[/snapback]

Darn it, I never knew those White Supremacists would resort to disguising themselves as Hakkas, stealing our identities and spreading lies in our names. I must report this to my clan association at once!

I think he meant trolling in cyberspace or some sort of unconventional conspiracy theory.

ahxiang

Aug 12 2006, 11:02 AM

QUOTE(urofpersia @ Aug 11 2006, 10:04 PM) [snapback]4835759[/snapback]

Darn it, I never knew those White Supremacists would resort to disguising themselves as Hakkas, stealing our identities and spreading lies in our names. I must report this to my clan association at once!

Ho, Silver!

There was a purported Hakka called Dr. Lee something on a website called East Wind something who had been spreading the myth on top of Xinjiang mummies since 2000, and he claimed to be a ember of Hakka clan in Toronto area. His thesis was Lord Huangdi, the Yellow Emperor, was coined in the word 'huang' which was "white king", and he said Hakka had high nose bridge and relatively-leveled eye-sockets because they were in fact Central Asians,etc etc.

ahxiang

Aug 12 2006, 11:11 AM

QUOTE(lanjingling @ Aug 11 2006, 08:26 PM) [snapback]4835709[/snapback]

That's funny, because Gay Courter is not an historian, but a writer who uses 2nd-hand sources, so you contradict yourself here

BTW, you didn't answered my question " What kind of warning ?"

I do not claim to be an expert on Jew and Opium. I happened to have read more about the opium dealings the Jewish merchants had conducted in China, in addition to Courter's book. In light of the fact that the Jews had overtaken the American foreign policies and news media, you would have to give a high mark for Gay Couter to publish his book exposing the myth of opium trade. It is more than Jews involved here. The American presidential families had built their wealth on top of opium trade with China which used to have 3/4th world's silver reserves.

Also take a look at another 'wannabe' site, http://www.joyfulnoise.net/JoyChina6.html which taunted things like Jewish contribution to China:
"Earlier this century, Sephardic Jews moved to this city [Shanghai] in great numbers. Along with the house of Jardine Matheson, the Sassoons, Kadoories, and Hardoons came large numbers of Jewish families from Baghdad, Bombay, and Cairo. Joining them in far greater numbers were poverty-stricken Jews from czarist lands fleeing pogroms in the Pale of Settlement, becoming shopkeepers, bakers, and milliners.The Russian Revolution of 1917 practically doubled the size of the Jewish community."

As to 'warning', I was not clear earlier. The points are that, avoid to have wannabe mentality as to high nose bridge or have a propensity to do a plastic surgery to get a high nose bridge if you could not do a racial change; understand that non-Chinese have no love for China and Chinese people other than China's wealth and women; and beware that there are always people who act as 'parasites' riding on top of powerful people to achieve their aim of domination over the rest of peoples.

ahxiang

Aug 12 2006, 11:21 AM

QUOTE(Yun @ Aug 11 2006, 09:15 PM) [snapback]4835733[/snapback]

Don't blondes tend to have blue eyes, no matter what country they're from? It's true blondeness is not found in Jews, but I don't see why Americans can't be blonde.
Are you saying you will only accept the quote if I give the name of Matteo Ricci's book, or that even if Matteo Ricci said it, you don't believe him? Your two sentences seem to be giving different messages.

The reference is Ricci's Opera Storiche del P. Matteo Ricci. I can't read Italian and I have not read the book, but it is cited in another book I have.

Yun,

It is a matter of relativity. I gave an example of Frank Dorm being caught by CHinese near Jinan of Shandong as a 'White Russian' spy. I also have another count of an American reporter caught near Wuhan as a same kind of spy. Chinese knew at the time that Russians and Russian Jews were predominantly carrying colored eyes, while assuming that Americans did not. The reason Americans did not have this predominant colored eyes is that it was melting pot with people all from the world. And, White Russians were the lackies of Japanese Kwantung Army during WWII by the way.

Jews were a complex phenomenon. Somebody needs to do a DNA test to determine their lineage. There was a prevalent school of thought on websites with a claim that Khazer Turks of Central Asia had converted to Judaism on a wholesale scale, and that the Jews who went to Eastern Europe were the desendants of Khazer Turks and Europeans. That explained why today's Jews in Israel were compeletely different from their Arab neighbors. They supposed to be two branches of the same big family 2500 years ago.

Ricci matter: I could not discount his talks altogether. But someone who knows Italian needs to do some corroboration.

Yun

Aug 12 2006, 11:45 AM

QUOTE

There was a purported Hakka called Dr. Lee something on a website called East Wind something who had been spreading the myth on top of Xinjiang mummies since 2000, and he claimed to be a ember of Hakka clan in Toronto area. His thesis was Lord Huangdi, the Yellow Emperor, was coined in the word 'huang' which was "white king", and he said Hakka had high nose bridge and relatively-leveled eye-sockets because they were in fact Central Asians,etc etc.

This Dr SL Lee of Asiawind Forums is also an ardent supporter of Gavin Menzies' 1421 theory, and his website contains a theory that the Hakka are descended from the Xiongnu. In my opinion his PhD doesn't make him less of a quack when it comes to history.

QUOTE

There was a prevalent school of thought on websites with a claim that Khazer Turks of Central Asia had converted to Judaism on a wholesale scale, and that the Jews who went to Eastern Europe were the desendants of Khazer Turks and Europeans.

The Khazar khanate did convert to Judaism, the only state in history to do so. There is a theory that Ashkenazi Jews (Eastern European Jews) are all descended from Khazars, but most scholars now do not support it. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars

lanjingling

Aug 12 2006, 09:36 PM

QUOTE(ahxiang @ Aug 12 2006, 10:11 AM) [snapback]4835957[/snapback]

In light of the fact that the Jews had overtaken the American foreign policies and news media, you would have to give a high mark for Gay Couter to publish his book exposing the myth of opium trade. It is more than Jews involved here. The American presidential families had built their wealth on top of opium trade with China which used to have 3/4th world's silver reserves.

What you call "fact" i call "paranoid conspiracy theory", unless you can show me proofs that the jews (wich ones, u.s. jews , Israelis ?) control u.s. foreign politics & news media , & that "the American presidential families (Roosevelt ? Kennedy ? Clinton ? Bush ? ) had built their wealth on top of opium trade with China" ...

Good luck

QUOTE(ahxiang @ Aug 12 2006, 10:11 AM) [snapback]4835957[/snapback]

which taunted things like Jewish contribution to China:
"Earlier this century, Sephardic Jews moved to this city [Shanghai] in great numbers. Along with the house of Jardine Matheson, the Sassoons, Kadoories, and Hardoons came large numbers of Jewish families from Baghdad, Bombay, and Cairo. Joining them in far greater numbers were poverty-stricken Jews from czarist lands fleeing pogroms in the Pale of Settlement, becoming shopkeepers, bakers, and milliners.The Russian Revolution of 1917 practically doubled the size of the Jewish community."

I do not see how "becoming shopkeeper , baker "etc. can be a taunted thing

QUOTE(ahxiang @ Aug 12 2006, 10:11 AM) [snapback]4835957[/snapback]

As to 'warning', I was not clear earlier. The points are that,understand that non-Chinese have no love for China and Chinese people other than China's wealth and women; and beware that there are always people who act as 'parasites' riding on top of powerful people to achieve their aim of domination over the rest of peoples.

Who are these 'parasites' , the Jews ? You should either stop reading "The protocols of the elders of Zion" , or stop smoking opium yourself

BTW , the non-Chinese forumers here will be delighted to learn that their only interest in China is Her wealth & women

ahxiang

Aug 12 2006, 11:17 PM

QUOTE(lanjingling @ Aug 12 2006, 07:36 PM) [snapback]4836014[/snapback]

What you call "fact" i call "paranoid conspiracy theory", unless you can show me proofs that the jews (wich ones, u.s. jews , Israelis ?) control u.s. foreign politics & news media , & that "the American presidential families (Roosevelt ? Kennedy ? Clinton ? Bush ? ) had built their wealth on top of opium trade with China" ...

Good luck

I do not see how "becoming shopkeeper , baker "etc. can be a taunted thing

Who are these 'parasites' , the Jews ? You should either stop reading "The protocols of the elders of Zion" , or stop smoking opium yourself

BTW , the non-Chinese forumers here will be delighted to learn that their only interest in China is Her wealth & women

It is well-known that American companies involved in opium trade would include Russell [La-sai-er] & Company, Heard [He-de] & Company, Wetmore's [Wei-te-mo-er Company], Olyphant's [Ao-li-fen-te Company], and Wolcott [Wo-er-ke-te], Bates [Bei-ci? Joshua Bates] & Company per Sterling Seagrave.
The Boston Russel [La-sai-er] Company had connections with Roosevelt, Delano [Warren Delano, Jr., i.e., the grandfather of Franklin Roosevelt] and Forbes [Robert Bennett Forbes] families. -- Those names should be inscribed on the "Pillar of Shame".

Some details could be seen
http://www.ctrl.org/boodleboys/boddlesboys2.html

I am not to debate further as to the matter of Jews. Over 50% of ordinary Americans had this same assessment. And, you may see the new result of next Congressional election or presidential election to see what changes, i.e., US foreign policy changes, are coming.

As to 'white' or non-Chinese psychology, since I don't know what ethnicity you belong to, I could not be certain whether you would understand what I am to say here. Perhaps, he simple way to tell the 'white' or non-Chinese psychology would be to go the mindsets of their leaders, like Winston Churchill and George Marshall who were the defenders of their group versus the rest of the world. In no time did Churchill and George Marshall ever had a slight love for an ordinary Chinese or Asian or any non-White man. Throughout their speeches and actions, you could find what I had mentioned as the opposite of what you think the two reprsentatives could have exhibited to people like Chinese, not a slight trace of empathy or sympathy.

And, George Marshall, after wrecking China, went on to establish the State of Israel, by the way. For 500 years, Churchill and George Marshall etc understood that only Arab-Persian-Turk and Chinese posed the real checkup against their domination of the world.

Back to Hakka, the Dr. Lee Yun had mentioned had once emailed me, and stated that he had no proof and no evidence to corroboare his theory that Hakka were Central Asians, and he wanted me to give him room to say what he wanted to say. So be it.

ahxiang

Aug 12 2006, 11:24 PM

QUOTE(felixthecat @ Aug 10 2006, 09:35 PM) [snapback]4835312[/snapback]

Major Chinese news media outlets rarely report this historic fact in regard to Jew's deadly sins in Opium Trade devastated China for nearly 1 century,rather often elevate Jews for how they excelled in education and commerce plus their frugality.

British Jew Benjimin D'Israel was the Prime Minister of England during Queen Victoria's reign,he encouraged QV to militarily annexed India as part of British Empire.I wonder if he had " deadly hands " in the sinful opium trade in those years.

It seems that Opium Trade was a 'joint venture' between the British Government and the Merchants. Probably it stemmed from teh fact that it was the merchant-dominated colonialists who went out to conquer the world and hence were empowered to claim the share of any ventures of the British Empire.

Do some google of "Sassoon, Hardoon, Kadoorie, Abraham, Elias, Benjamin", and you may find some inetresting results

fcharton

Aug 13 2006, 04:02 AM

QUOTE(ahxiang @ Aug 13 2006, 06:17 AM) [snapback]4836050[/snapback]

I am not to debate further as to the matter of Jews. Over 50% of ordinary Americans had this same assessment.

Says who? I very much doubt you provide serious figures about this, and even if you did, it would just prove that a large part of the american public is seriously misled. Polls are no proofs.

But anyway, I read the following carefully, as I was interested having a free consultation about my own psychology (I am a white non chinese)

QUOTE(ahxiang @ Aug 13 2006, 06:17 AM) [snapback]4836050[/snapback]

As to 'white' or non-Chinese psychology, since I don't know what ethnicity you belong to, I could not be certain whether you would understand what I am to say here.

d**n, my skin colour will prevent me from understanding... please, someone from the right haplogroup or whatever, help me!

QUOTE(ahxiang @ Aug 13 2006, 06:17 AM) [snapback]4836050[/snapback]

Perhaps, he simple way to tell the 'white' or non-Chinese psychology would be to go the mindsets of their leaders, like Winston Churchill and George Marshall who were the defenders of their group versus the rest of the world.

Now, we are knee deep into serious scientific method... the best way to understand is to look at (drum roll) 2 persons... (is your "50% of ordinary americans" above based upon such an impressive sample, by any chance?) But, yes, let us proceed and look into their mindsets, which you certainly understand very well (although I, because of the shape of my nose, cannot...).

QUOTE(ahxiang @ Aug 13 2006, 06:17 AM) [snapback]4836050[/snapback]

In no time did Churchill and George Marshall ever had a slight love for an ordinary Chinese or Asian or any non-White man. Throughout their speeches and actions, you could find what I had mentioned as the opposite of what you think the two reprsentatives could have exhibited to people like Chinese, not a slight trace of empathy or sympathy.

But of course, they were racists, non white haters, and therefore all white psychology is based upon racism.. But this is a fact that only people of the right skin colour can understand (and of course, the last comment is not racist, eh, ahxiang?)

QUOTE(ahxiang @ Aug 13 2006, 06:17 AM) [snapback]4836050[/snapback]

And, George Marshall, after wrecking China, went on to establish the State of Israel, by the way. For 500 years, Churchill and George Marshall etc understood that only Arab-Persian-Turk and Chinese posed the real checkup against their domination of the world.

And here we go! this had to end in glory : here comes the sinister jewish plot for world domination again.

Of course, my DNA doesn't allow me to understand to subtlety in this explanation. Where there is certainly exquisitely intelligent analysis, I just see ordinary racism and antisemitism. Yet, I respectfully suggest that you are making a fool of yourself, ahxiang.

Francois

Yun

Aug 13 2006, 05:57 AM

Since the discussion now seems to mainly be about Jews in China, rather than their alleged relation with the Hakka (which was a groundless theory anyway), I have changed the title of the thread and merged it with an earlier short discussion about Jews in China at various times in history.

There are two other threads specifically about Jews in Shanghai and Harbin in the ROC period: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...231&hl=Jews

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...453&hl=Jews

I would like to urge participants in this thread not to make sweeping negative statements about 'whites' or 'Jews'. It is considered racism rather than credible intellectual discourse, and we have 'white' or Jewish members here who would be very offended.