Who do you think was the greatist Han Emperor. I hear Wudi was a good emperor.

I think, it would have to be Han Wudi.. during his reign, there were a number of accomplishments:

1. Defeat of the Xiongnu

2. Consolidation of the centralised rule

3. Expansion of the empire

4. Opening up of the silk road.

I heard from Ghost of Han that Han Wudi was gay is there any proof of this.

He was bi-sexual, the only proof I can give you is quoting sources, right now, I don't want to get into it right now cause I'm going to be doing a big peice on it.

Actually, it was Han Aidi who was gay, not Han Wudi.. Han Wudi was supposingly bi-sexual..

There were three good Han Emperors. First, Han Gaozu. Next, Han Wudi. Then, Han Guangwu Di.

There are a lot of good emperors, Han Jin Di, Han Wen Di, Han Xuan di are all good.

A lot of success for a dynasty is based on the emperors abilties. And the Han was so unique, yet they (the emperors ) were usually always trying to better the countries. Those who didn't usually met with problems, that is kinda how Wang Mang came into the picture. He had watched Han aidi and those of that close time period, kind of just relax and enjoy the high power, so he felt the Han had lost its mandate. So he did what he felt was best for China, and started anew, he wasn't really that bad of a guy, he was working for the best, and he should honestly be compared to Liu Bang, and even Han Wudi. He just pissed off some elite people, but cause he had popular support of peasants, but then a river changed its course twice causing floods, and famine so he lost all of his support together, people I don't think realize how possible it was that their was not going to be a later Han.

GZ


Your right he had a couple favorites, that i have mentioned before. Han Yan, Han Yue, and Li Yannian. They are the big ones. I remeber reading that one of his male favorites actually seduced an imperial councubine once, and then was killed another one of Han Wu's favorites.

I would also say Han Wudi (Martial Emperor of Han).

I would say Han Xuan Di 孝武皇帝曾孙病已 (great grandson of Emperor Wu of Han, Bing Ji).
http://www.guoxue.com/shibu/24shi/hansu/hsu_009.htm

He came to power through the support of Huo Guang (he was a little known commoner before) and understood the hardship of the people. He even changed his name to a complex character because his name is too common and he knew that there are many sycophants out there who would be punishing commoners for abusing his name (so if you have a complex name the officials wouldn't be able be able to "please" the emperor that way).

十一月壬子，立皇后许氏。赐诸侯王以下金钱，至吏、民鳏、寡、孤、独各有差。皇太后归长乐宫。长乐宫初置屯卫。
His empress was a lady that he fell in love with when he was still a commoner. She did not have a noble background, but she is a good lady.

五月，凤皇集胶东、千乘。赦天下。赐吏二千石、诸侯相、下至中都官、宦吏、六百石爵，各有差，自左更至五大夫。赐天下人爵各一级，孝者二级，女子百户牛、酒。租税勿收。
Imagine a situation in which renting from the government is free.

三月乙卯，立皇后霍氏。赐丞相以下至郎吏从官金、钱、帛各有差。赦天下。
The reason behind this was that his empress Xu was poisoned in her childbirth and otu of political considerations he had to elevate her to the status of empress (I think you guys know who's behind the poisoning).

秋七月，大司马霍禹谋反。诏曰：“乃者，东织室令史张赦使魏郡豪李竟报冠阳侯霍云谋为大逆，朕以大将军故，抑而不扬，冀其自新。今大司马博陆侯禹与母宣成侯夫人显及从昆弟冠阳侯云、乐平侯山、诸姊妹婿度辽将军范明友、长信少府邓广汉、中郎将任胜、骑都尉赵平、长安男子冯殷等谋为大逆。显前又使女侍医淳于衍进药杀共哀后，谋毒太子，欲危宗庙。逆乱不道，咸伏其辜。诸为霍氏所诖误未发觉在吏者，皆赦除之。”
When the former empress was giving birth, a bribed doctor poisoned the empress and also tried to poison the babe. This is a result of "lack of attention to security" by the Huo clan (a much better way to say instigated). As a aresult, the Empress Huo is banished to the cold palace (poor lady).

夏四月壬寅，郡国四十九地震，或山崩水出。诏曰：“盖灾异者，天地之戒也。朕承洪业，奉宗庙，托于士民之上，未能和群生。乃者地震北海、琅邪，坏祖宗庙，朕甚惧焉。丞相、御史其与列侯、中二千石博问经学之士，有以应变，辅朕之不逮，毋有所讳。令三辅、太常、内郡国举贤良方正各一人。律令有可蠲除以安百姓，条奏。被地震坏败甚者，勿收租赋。”大赦天下。上以宗庙堕，素服，避正殿五日。
No tax for the provinces that had earthquakes.

九月，诏曰：“朕惟百姓失职不赡，遣使者循行郡国问民所疾苦。吏或营私烦扰，不顾厥咎，朕甚闵之。今年郡国颇被水灾，已振贷。盐，民之食，而贾咸贵，众庶重困。其减天下盐贾。”
Reducing salt prices.

夏五月，诏曰：“狱者，万民之命，所以禁暴止邪，养育群生也。能使生者不怨，死者不恨，则可谓文吏矣。今则不然，用法或持巧心，析律贰端，深浅不平，增辞饰非，以成其罪。奏不如实，上亦亡由知。此朕之不明，吏之不称，四方黎民将何仰哉！二千石各察官属，勿用此人。吏务平法。或擅兴徭役，饰厨、传，称过使客，越职逾法，以取名誉，譬犹践薄冰以待白日，岂不殆哉！今天下颇被疾疫之灾，朕甚愍之。其令郡国被灾甚者，毋出今年租赋。”
Again, no tax for disaster stricken provinces.

四年春正月，诏曰：“朕惟耆老之人，发齿堕落，血气衰微，亦亡暴虐之心，今或罹文法，拘执囹圄，不终天命，朕甚怜之。自今以来，诸年八十以上，非诬告、杀伤人，佗皆勿坐。”古
If you're an old guy and did not give false witness or kill or wound people, you don't have to go to prison.

神爵元年春正月，行幸甘泉，郊泰畤。三月，行幸河东，祠后土。诏曰：“朕承宗庙，战战栗栗，惟万事统，未烛厥理。乃元康四年嘉谷、玄稷降于郡国，神爵仍集，金芝九茎产于函德殿铜池中，九真献奇兽，南郡获白虎、威凤为宝。朕之不明，震于珍物，饬躬斋精，祈为百姓。东济大河，天气清静，神鱼舞河。幸万岁宫，神爵翔集。朕之不德，惧不能任。其以五年为神爵元年。赐天下勤事吏爵二级，民一级，女子百户牛、酒，鳏、寡、孤、独、高年帛。所振贷物勿收。行所过，毋出田租。”
The emperor travelled around and relieved tax in the provinces he passed by and refused to accept their offerings (again "raised" by the sycophants trying to "please" the emperor).

冬十一月，匈奴呼DD35累单于帅众来降，封为列侯。(can't read character dd35)
The Xiongnu surrendered. It is bad that Ban Gu only wrote a line. Sima Qian would have described this even to a great detail.

匈奴呼韩邪单于稽侯犭册来朝，赞谒称籓臣而不名。赐以玺绶、冠带、衣裳、安车、驷马、黄金、锦绣、缯絮。使有司道单于先行就邸长安，宿长平。上自甘泉宿池阳宫。上登长平阪，诏单于毋谒。共左右当户之群皆列观，蛮夷君、长、王、侯迎者数万人，夹道陈。上登渭桥，咸称万岁。单于就邸。置酒建章宫，飨赐单于，观以珍宝。
Hu Han Xie Chanyu came to the Han to present himself. The Emperor told the Chanyu not to prostrate himself and the 2 leaders sat next to each other. A war that has lasted for several decades has came to an end.

赞曰：孝先之治，信赏必罚，综核名实，政事、文学、法理之士咸精其能，至于技巧、工匠、器械，自元、成间鲜能及之，亦足以知吏称其职，民安其业也。遭值匈奴乖乱，推亡固存，信威北夷，单于慕义，稽首称籓。功光祖宗，业垂后嗣，可谓中兴，侔德殷宗、周宣矣！
Final conclusion: a good emperor, focusing on justice and law, combining the various philosophy schools as well as the craftsmen. The Han might was extended to the northern barbarians and the Chanyu of the Xiongnu came to submit as vassal states. Is there a better Han Emperor?

Isn't he just the grandson? 73-49 Han Xuandi right?

Along with cutting taxes he was known for cutting officials saleries. But I didn't know that he got the Xiongnu surrender, I thoguht he didn't go o nmillitary campiagns.

But here's a quesiton I got who reigned before Han Xuandi?

I have a question: Is Han Xuan Di the 11th emperor of West Han Dynasty?

I think Han Wen Di was a really good emperor too. He believed in Li Er (Lao Zi)'s school. He was benevolent, industrious, and thrifty. He abolished the punishment of cutting off noses and lags. During his reign, everyone who's above eighty were given presents. And he often cancelled taxes for those with farmland.

Both he and his son practiced the so called Huang Lao politics, which helped increase the population and public wealth. Later most of the money used on military expeditions were accumulated from the reigns of Wen Di and his son, Jing Di.

Well I think he's the tenth. There was


But as you pointed out, during Liu Bang's wife's reign she had techinally two emperors under her, Liu Gong (劉恭), and Liu Hong (劉弘). But that would still make him only the ninth emperor, but then I remebered that they was actaully an emperor that lastested 27 days named Liu He he was right before Xuandi's reign. So I think he's tenth? Could be wrong, what makes you think 11th?

GOH, you are right, I think.

I just remember to check GZ's timeline and my book. On my book it says Liu He is the ninth emperor, and Liu Bing Yi (劉病已) is the tenth.

But I was confused because on GZ's timeline Xuandi's name is Liu Xun (劉询), not Liu Bing Yi. So I was thinking maybe Xuandi's name is Liu Shi (劉奭), the 11th emperor who has a more complex name. :lol:

Since Sephodwyrm has mentioned that Xuandi changed his name to a more complex one, so I guess Liu Bing Yi (劉病已) is Liu Xun (劉询).

Sorry, am I confusing you? :D

I'm pretty sure I got it. But what book are you refering to cause, I'm alwasys for a good book to look into.

The title of the book is "Chinese History". It's written by Chinese writer Bo Ying, so it's all in Chinese..

By the way, he seems to like to write about bad stuff people did...

Well I guess I won't be reading it. I hate how there aren't many english books on Chinese history.

It depends on how you judge a good emperor. Han Wudi, the martial emperor, for example, is considered one of the Greatest Han Emperor because he defeated the Xiongnu and widen his territory. However, his rule did bring many financial problems to his subjects. In Sima Qian's Record of the Grand Historian, Sima Qian seemed to be irked by the emperor's policies at times. Many of his passages in the Record shows the inefficiency of Emperor Wu's economic policies. Thus, although there was great territorial expansion under the reign of Emperor Wu, local economy suffered due to the prolonged war.

I'm just asking here cause I'm not that sure, but I thought Han Wu, didn't beat the Xiong Nu he just beat them back extrmely far back. I could be wrong, I know there is another post about it on CHF.

Can anywaone tell me was there any good emperoro in the esat han other than han guang wu di?

I don't think there is any good emperor in eastern han other than Emperor Guangwu (Liu Xiu).

Why? During the eastern han dynasty, Emperor Guangwu strengthened the imperial power and weakened the ministers' power. Since then, he depended on 2 types of people to administer the empire. The 1st type comprised his 'maternal' relatives - members of his maternal grandfather's and father-in-law's families. To monopolise power, these relatives deliberately selected young boys to be successors to the throne. From Emperor He to Emperor Xian, every emperor was a child. The youngest, Emperor Shang, was still in his infancy when he ascended the throne. With so many 'child' emperor, they are not able to become powerful emperor.

From what I've read so far, I'm most impressed by the first Han emperor Liu Bang, reign title Han Gaodi. The book suggests that most of the Western Han emperors who came after Gaodi were figureheads, with the real power being exercised by the ministers and the secretariat. So while Wudi's reign was clearly a time of great expansion and prosperity for China, I'm not convinced that Wudi himself was responsible for that. But Gaodi raised himself from nothing and picked the strategies that won him the civil war and established his dynasty. He personally set the stage for all that the Han dynasty achieved. Without him, the Emperor Qin's achievement of unifying China might have been lost permanently.

The Greatest Han Emperor would be Gaozu IMO, and friend Daniel explained a lot of it already. Wudi comes in second in terms of starting the ambition to knock the Xiongnu from their supposed supremacy.

However, the Han Emperor with the greatest dominion would be Emperor Yuan of Han. Friend warhead gave a great deal of information about the total area subjugated, size of army, and the submission of the Xiongnu as vassals.

But my favorite Han Emperor is Emperor Xuan of Han. Good Emperor, great lover. Perfect combination.

Is "Gaozu" the correct Pinyin spelling of the first Han emperor? I tried to transliterate from my Cambridge History chapter, which calls him "Kao-ti," but sometimes I don't transliterate correctly.

The first emperor of a dynasty is usually denoted with the title of Zu instead of Di.

Zu means ancestor.. so Han Gaozu (Liu Bang) is referred to as the High Ancestor Emperor.

Emperor Xuan of Han was called Liu Bingyi when he was not emperor yet. After he accend the throne, he changed his name(to Liu Xun).

Liu Shi is historically known as Emperor Yuan of Han.

By the way, Liu Shi is not the 11th emperor of Han. I guessed you are referring Liu Gong and Liu Hong as the 3rd and 4th emperor and Liu He as the 9th emperor. Actually they aren't refered as "emperor" by many.
->When they accend the throne, they didn't change the name of their "yuan"
->They are "emperor" only for a short time, thus not counted.

Therefor, Emperor Wen of Han IS the 3rd emperor of Han and Emperor Xuan and Yuan of Han ARE the 7th and 8th emperor of Han respectively.

By calling them "Zu" is a form of respect to them. "Zu" is their "Miao Hao" actually. "Di" is their "Shi Hao".

Liu Bang's "Miao Hao" is "Han Gao Zu" and his "Shi Hao" is "Han Gao Di".

Another example is Liu Heng's "Shi Hao" is "Han (Xiao) Wen Di" and "Miao Hao" is "Han Tai Zong".

I think that Emperors Ming and Zhang of Han can still make it to the "good emperors" of Eastern Han. They continued to rule to Kingdom properly and people are happy.

It suffered, no doubts, but during the last years of Han Wu Di, he saw how prolonged war had cause people to suffer and he issued an emperor edict saying that he was sorry for what he had done and promised that he will not lalaunch any war again and will also let the people recuperate. This shows that Han Wu Di is good.

Han Wudi is my favorite emperor, he is so cool

I would say Han Gaozu since he was the founding of Han's (by defeating Xi Chu Ba Wang of Course...it takes a lot of efforts i think ) and the other would be Han Wudi, since he could expelled Xiong Nu's and pacify northern borders.

Most people say Han Wudi, because of the tv series 漢武大帝。

I think Han Xuandi is the best Han Emperor. He really practiced the saying 'love his people like his children'.

There is actually two emperors that reigned between Hui Di and Wen Di that were neglected in history, the first is Shao Di Liu Gong, he was the son of a palace lady and Hui Di, the Empress Zhang did not have a child, so she killed the palace lady and took her child and adopted it. When Shao Di heard this he swore to avenge his mother. When the empress heard this, she became frightened and deposed him, then poisoned him. The second emperor was Shao Di Liu Hong, who was made emperor after Liu Gong was deposed, he was originally king of Chang Shan Liu Yi and changed his name to Liu Hong when he became emperor. He was deposed after the Lu family was ousted from power and later executed by the ministers when Wen Di replaced him as the son of heaven.

i like Han Gaozu

I would say it depends on how one defines good.

Han GaoZu and Han GuangWu are the founders and 2 Han dynasties. Han Wen, Han Jing, Han He and Han Xuan are the emporers that manage to make the nation to grow and expand. Han Wu is of course best well-known for expanding the territory and defeat XiongNu. Also, he's one of those emporer longest in administratrion.

I would choose Liu Che, Han Wudi.

Wu Di, preferably before he went bonkers in his later days.

By the way, 漢武大帝 did not completely gloss over that.

The Han Dynasty became nearly bankrupt when Wudi was over. Han Wu Da Di showed that the people were poor and their lives seemed harsh.

Despite the flaws in Wu's later reign, I would still say Wudi is the best of Han Dynasty.
Gaozu was able to beat Xiong Yu with Han Shin's help. However, I'm not impressed by the fact that Han Shin was killed and Gaozu got sacked by Xiongnu.

Wudi may have caused the bankruptcy of the Han Dynasty, but historically for Chinese history, he was extremely important.
Wudi is most well known for defeating Xiongnu. Perhaps more important is that he started the Silk Road that is critical in chinese history. In addition, he made monopolies and developed new skills. Civil Service exams. He changed Han advisors from Daoist to Confuscianist.

It's quite difficult to judge greatness in figures of the past. What is greatness? Building neat stuff? Patronizing arts? Defeating invaders? Expanding territory? What about oppression, enslavement or extermination of conquered peoples, clanicide, fratricide, taxation without returns, execution for losing battles or expressing criticism, women forced to join the harem, etc. Back then, slavery was commonplace, expansionism was not nearly scandalous, wartime atrocities like rape and pillage were practically expected, rulers could execute people at whim, and so on.Often we judge historical figures, even in the West, by the standards of their times, focusing on positive aspects, instead of as a whole and by modern standards.

Why is Han Xuan Di not listed as one of the great Han Emperors? Wasn't he a very good Emperor? Very benevolent, with nearly clean record, except for his harsh treatment of the Huo family.

Only these 5 are considered as great Emperors of the Han Dynasty.

Han Gao Zu
Han Wen Di
Han Jing Di
Han Wu Di
Han Guangwu Di

Agreed. I would also add Xuan and Yuan. But in my opinion, neither Xuan or Yuan was the best.

Another Han emperor that should be on the list is Han Ming Di. He did start the reconquest of the Tarim.
As for Guan Wu Di, it was a heaven presented opportunity for Han during his reign to have final strategic triumph over the Xiongnu. Eastern Han's strategic policy is fundamentally different from that of the Western Han, with a nomadic buffer zone in the north under the southern xiongnu vassal, maintaining large armies in the border becomes unnecessary. The same goes with the Tarim, these regions became self sufficient. Thrusts by the northern xiongnu southwards were usually repulsed by the southern tribes, and even in mounting expeditions northwards, the southern xiongnu provided the majority of the manpower for the final destruction of the north. Hence the Han hardly put any financial burden on the military to maintain border security and finally destroy the its century long menace.

Some people are leaving some good emperors out.
IMO, the good ones in history are:
In Western Han: Gaozu, Wen, Jing, Wu, Xuan, Yuan
In Eastern Han: Guang Wu, Ming, Zhang (the first three)

Gaozu was known for creating the dynasty. Everyone knows Wen/Jin's rule that made the economy prosper. Wudi expanded and severly weakened the Xiongnu tribes.
Xuan/Yuan each made the economy back to it's prosperity. At the same time, Xiongnu wasn't as strong as it used to be because of Wudi.

Guang Wu simply recreated the Han dynasty. And he tried to rebuild the dynasty after the wars.
Ming/Zhang's rule was one where the Han Dynasty was rebuilt and the economy prospered at a high point. At the same time, the Xiongnu people dissapeared. However, after Han Zhang Di, the emperors would start getting weaker and the officials would start to become corrupt.

actually Han Xian Di is also counted as a good emperor. at least he still cares abt his empire, trying different ways to rule the country by himself rather than being a puppet of Cao Cao etc.

for what everyone has talked about, it generally seems to come down to Gaozu and Wudi. I personally feel Wudi is better.

For those who feel Gaozu is better, why do you think so?

Han Wudi was hardly "good".
We have to remember that he started off with an already thriving empire. He then ran it into the ground with his continuous wars. It was only after his empire boardered on bankruptcy that he began to recuperate his treasury.

As far as I believe, while what he did was indeed magnificant, he pushed the resources of his country way too hard.

true, but he is probably the most important emperor in the Han Dynasty. He completely turned the tide around against the Xiongnu people. He weakened them to the point that they will never recover to their full strength again.
Economically, he had the salt monopoly. Han had the advantage in many trades. While it did end up bankrupt. Wudi also started the rebuilding in his final years (when he realized his mistake) which would be finished during Xuandi's years.
Military wise- Han was at a peak with some of the best generals in chinese history.
Opened the Silk Road. VERY important in history.
Globally speaking, Han was pretty much unmatched. The Romans were still a republic.

I concede that I was never too fond of Gaozu. He did help the economy start to rebuild. But whatelse? Military wise, he was sacked hard by the Xiongnu. Government wise, he made a mess with Lu Empress and killing lots of great officials, most noticeably Han Xin.

Han XuanDi was the great grandson of Han WuDi. His grandfather was Crown Prince Li who was forced to commit suicide after a failed rebellion for being wrong accused of practising voodoo. That incident caused a lot of innocent people being executed and IMO is a major failing in Han WuDi's reign.

His father was the Crown Prince Shi (after his maternal surname). Anyone can tell me what's the name of Crown Prince Shi? Little is known on him.

Han ZhaoDi was the fella who reigned before Han XuanDi.