http://www.allensantiques.com/store/product332.html
Would appreciate comments from our resident experts.
Full Version: Han Bronze Jian sword
QUOTE(Yun @ Oct 31 2005, 06:18 PM) [snapback]4768107[/snapback]
http://www.allensantiques.com/store/product332.html
Would appreciate comments from our resident experts.
Would appreciate comments from our resident experts.
It looks based on the stylistic profile to be a Warring States piece, not Han...
One way to guard against fakes is to hold the weapon and feeling the balance -- swing it around... If the feel seems awkward... This is a major factor cause Warring States swords were casted and shaped/profiled to be well-balanced... The feel in one's hands with regards to genuine ones and replicas is a strong tell-tale sign... The fakesters in China are not good enough yet to reproduce the balance... in my opinion...
It is real, but the dating is wrong. Even Tony's picture from a text on the site calls it a Warring States sword, which it is.
Some short bronze swords like this exist in early West Han...but this hollow hilted example is an early Warring States period weapon. (see J. Rawson 'Art & Archeaology in Ancient China, or Y. Hong 'Weapons in ancient China'. I expect Cheng/Dong 'Ancient Chinese weapons' will ID this sword type too)
Nice sword.
Yun,
How is it you are able to access these old sale images? I would like to go through them too!
Tony has had some pretty good bronze swords before...if there is an option on his site I would like to find it!
Where he says 'Fabric & wood fibres attaching to the corrosion on the handle' this is one of the first things to look for on a bronze sword. The traces of fabric or cord binding on the handle can just be seen here.
I dont see the wood though, presumably scabbard remains, but this is another feature to look for.
The pictures arent close enough.
One thing about the weight, an ancient bronze will tend to be lighter than a modern copy (it is said)...so if it is too heavy then it suggests it isnt old. Kind of hard to judge though without experience.
I dont know if many dealers would like the customer picking them up and swinging them round though Thomas!
I did feel the weight difference though on fakes but wouldnt value it as much as the wood of fabric imprints, which is a good sign of age if the imprint is converted into a mineral. Crystalisation on patina is good too.
Unfortunately real old blades can escape any alterations and still look quite clean...doesnt mean they are fake but I wouldnt trust them. There are swords I decline to purchase for such reasons. Probably ancient, but I just try to be careful.
Note also some fakers are said to get old coins, like Han, which can be bought very cheapily...they then cast a sword from the old bronze of the coins and a test will then show the correct mix for an ancient bronze.
It's a tricky business.
Some short bronze swords like this exist in early West Han...but this hollow hilted example is an early Warring States period weapon. (see J. Rawson 'Art & Archeaology in Ancient China, or Y. Hong 'Weapons in ancient China'. I expect Cheng/Dong 'Ancient Chinese weapons' will ID this sword type too)
Nice sword.
Yun,
How is it you are able to access these old sale images? I would like to go through them too!
Tony has had some pretty good bronze swords before...if there is an option on his site I would like to find it!
Where he says 'Fabric & wood fibres attaching to the corrosion on the handle' this is one of the first things to look for on a bronze sword. The traces of fabric or cord binding on the handle can just be seen here.
I dont see the wood though, presumably scabbard remains, but this is another feature to look for.
The pictures arent close enough.
One thing about the weight, an ancient bronze will tend to be lighter than a modern copy (it is said)...so if it is too heavy then it suggests it isnt old. Kind of hard to judge though without experience.
I dont know if many dealers would like the customer picking them up and swinging them round though Thomas!
I did feel the weight difference though on fakes but wouldnt value it as much as the wood of fabric imprints, which is a good sign of age if the imprint is converted into a mineral. Crystalisation on patina is good too.
Unfortunately real old blades can escape any alterations and still look quite clean...doesnt mean they are fake but I wouldnt trust them. There are swords I decline to purchase for such reasons. Probably ancient, but I just try to be careful.
Note also some fakers are said to get old coins, like Han, which can be bought very cheapily...they then cast a sword from the old bronze of the coins and a test will then show the correct mix for an ancient bronze.
It's a tricky business.
Hi Kenneth, I came across the Sold Items page on Tony Allen's website by chance last night. Here it is: http://www.allensantiques.com/store/page17.html
Another interesting piece I just saw: http://www.allensantiques.com/store/product285.html
Supposedly a Han bronze sword grip for an iron sword, the blade of which is missing.
Another interesting piece I just saw: http://www.allensantiques.com/store/product285.html
Supposedly a Han bronze sword grip for an iron sword, the blade of which is missing.
Yeah, the 'Sichaun' stlye sword of which a number of examples have turned up over the years.
John Piscopo said they were 'well represented' in literature...but I havent seen much.
I saw one in Hong Kong too, and my Taiwanese friend has a couple. Richard Nable was offered some recently.
They rarely seem to be seen 2 exactly the same and are said to be Han (or slightly earlier) and come from specific parts of China.
J. Piscopos pieces had more intact than usual blades which he partially reattached with epoxy.
(attached below with repaired iron blades)
Here's my examples...the most complete one is feature in the group in Tonys book, which I didnt realise untill after I bought it.
A better than usual example.
John Piscopo said they were 'well represented' in literature...but I havent seen much.
I saw one in Hong Kong too, and my Taiwanese friend has a couple. Richard Nable was offered some recently.
They rarely seem to be seen 2 exactly the same and are said to be Han (or slightly earlier) and come from specific parts of China.
J. Piscopos pieces had more intact than usual blades which he partially reattached with epoxy.
(attached below with repaired iron blades)
Here's my examples...the most complete one is feature in the group in Tonys book, which I didnt realise untill after I bought it.
A better than usual example.
QUOTE(Kenneth @ Nov 1 2005, 09:49 AM) [snapback]4768161[/snapback]
It is real, but the dating is wrong. Even Tony's picture from a text on the site calls it a Warring States sword, which it is.
Some short bronze swords like this exist in early West Han...but this hollow hilted example is an early Warring States period weapon. (see J. Rawson 'Art & Archeaology in Ancient China, or Y. Hong 'Weapons in ancient China'. I expect Cheng/Dong 'Ancient Chinese weapons' will ID this sword type too)
Nice sword.
Yun,
How is it you are able to access these old sale images? I would like to go through them too!
Tony has had some pretty good bronze swords before...if there is an option on his site I would like to find it!
Where he says 'Fabric & wood fibres attaching to the corrosion on the handle' this is one of the first things to look for on a bronze sword. The traces of fabric or cord binding on the handle can just be seen here.
I dont see the wood though, presumably scabbard remains, but this is another feature to look for.
The pictures arent close enough.
One thing about the weight, an ancient bronze will tend to be lighter than a modern copy (it is said)...so if it is too heavy then it suggests it isnt old. Kind of hard to judge though without experience.
I dont know if many dealers would like the customer picking them up and swinging them round though Thomas!
I did feel the weight difference though on fakes but wouldnt value it as much as the wood of fabric imprints, which is a good sign of age if the imprint is converted into a mineral. Crystalisation on patina is good too.
Unfortunately real old blades can escape any alterations and still look quite clean...doesnt mean they are fake but I wouldnt trust them. There are swords I decline to purchase for such reasons. Probably ancient, but I just try to be careful.
Note also some fakers are said to get old coins, like Han, which can be bought very cheapily...they then cast a sword from the old bronze of the coins and a test will then show the correct mix for an ancient bronze.
It's a tricky business.
Some short bronze swords like this exist in early West Han...but this hollow hilted example is an early Warring States period weapon. (see J. Rawson 'Art & Archeaology in Ancient China, or Y. Hong 'Weapons in ancient China'. I expect Cheng/Dong 'Ancient Chinese weapons' will ID this sword type too)
Nice sword.
Yun,
How is it you are able to access these old sale images? I would like to go through them too!
Tony has had some pretty good bronze swords before...if there is an option on his site I would like to find it!
Where he says 'Fabric & wood fibres attaching to the corrosion on the handle' this is one of the first things to look for on a bronze sword. The traces of fabric or cord binding on the handle can just be seen here.
I dont see the wood though, presumably scabbard remains, but this is another feature to look for.
The pictures arent close enough.
One thing about the weight, an ancient bronze will tend to be lighter than a modern copy (it is said)...so if it is too heavy then it suggests it isnt old. Kind of hard to judge though without experience.
I dont know if many dealers would like the customer picking them up and swinging them round though Thomas!
I did feel the weight difference though on fakes but wouldnt value it as much as the wood of fabric imprints, which is a good sign of age if the imprint is converted into a mineral. Crystalisation on patina is good too.
Unfortunately real old blades can escape any alterations and still look quite clean...doesnt mean they are fake but I wouldnt trust them. There are swords I decline to purchase for such reasons. Probably ancient, but I just try to be careful.
Note also some fakers are said to get old coins, like Han, which can be bought very cheapily...they then cast a sword from the old bronze of the coins and a test will then show the correct mix for an ancient bronze.
It's a tricky business.
Sorry for the tardy reply, but I just signed on to the forum and just noticed the post about the hollow-handle jian. This style was first reported to me as Han in origin - simpler than the typical Warring States pieces because it allegedly was produced in larger quantities for bigger armies. I believe John Piscopo told me this in an email some years ago. However, subsequent research seems to suggest this is indeed an early WS piece. To make the matter even more interesting, we have several examples in our provincial historical museum in Zhengzhou which are dated Spring & Autumn, the only difference being that they are a little smaller and thinner than Tony Allen's example. There is actually one for sale now from a reputable dealer in our antiquities market in Zhengzhou.
Gary Todd, XinZheng City, Henan
Hi Gary,
Good to hear from your again. Feel free to post pictures of your impressions of China.
If you still have my e-mail address then send me yours in China becuase I occasionally have pictures of items that may be interest to see.
The sword of this type is most commonly put at 'Early Warring States' but in a chronolgy of central plains stlye swords in a British museum text they more simply say 5th-4th century BC for this type.
Periods such as 'Warring States-Qin-Han' are convenient but not entirely correct as material changes do not happen overnight and the East Zhou period is only divided on a arbitrary distinction based on a history texts chosen end date and not real artefactual changes. The late Spring & Autumn period would then be materially the same to the early Warring States.
Another idea is that the East Zhou 'belt hooks' only occur in the Warring States period but some texts put these items at Spring & Autumn and there is a story from early East Zhou of a prince who had his life saved when an arrow hit his belt buckle....in this way it is better to lump items into centuries perhaps.
Some swords with short stabbing baldes of the broad East ZHou stlye do exist from Han (I saw some found near Wudi & Jingdi's tomb)....they are simple double edged swords but occur with similar (solid?) hilts or just a simple tang.
I have been told the circle hilt swords also exist in early Han too. Quite possible since the Qin dynasty was so short that styles that existed for centuries would not vanish with a new ruler...and some swords may have been used for decades or even generations.
Yeah, I saw some nice swords in China too. It was look but dont touch though which is a shame since Hollywood road wasn't as good as the PRC artefacts markets.
Ironic really since it cant be the foreigners driving the demand for artefacts in that instance.
Good to hear from your again. Feel free to post pictures of your impressions of China.
If you still have my e-mail address then send me yours in China becuase I occasionally have pictures of items that may be interest to see.
The sword of this type is most commonly put at 'Early Warring States' but in a chronolgy of central plains stlye swords in a British museum text they more simply say 5th-4th century BC for this type.
Periods such as 'Warring States-Qin-Han' are convenient but not entirely correct as material changes do not happen overnight and the East Zhou period is only divided on a arbitrary distinction based on a history texts chosen end date and not real artefactual changes. The late Spring & Autumn period would then be materially the same to the early Warring States.
Another idea is that the East Zhou 'belt hooks' only occur in the Warring States period but some texts put these items at Spring & Autumn and there is a story from early East Zhou of a prince who had his life saved when an arrow hit his belt buckle....in this way it is better to lump items into centuries perhaps.
Some swords with short stabbing baldes of the broad East ZHou stlye do exist from Han (I saw some found near Wudi & Jingdi's tomb)....they are simple double edged swords but occur with similar (solid?) hilts or just a simple tang.
I have been told the circle hilt swords also exist in early Han too. Quite possible since the Qin dynasty was so short that styles that existed for centuries would not vanish with a new ruler...and some swords may have been used for decades or even generations.
Yeah, I saw some nice swords in China too. It was look but dont touch though which is a shame since Hollywood road wasn't as good as the PRC artefacts markets.
Ironic really since it cant be the foreigners driving the demand for artefacts in that instance.
are those hilt styles unique to the warring states period? I've never seen any like that before in any other Chinese swords.
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