Hi all,
I'm looking for some documented use of "multiple weapons" before the year 1500. All of those who study the martial arts have learned or have seen the use of two swords at once or two knives, etc. Unfortunately - these skills are typically handed down - teacher to student via oral tradition.

What I am looking for is some form of documented use. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.

Oh - and if the source were in english (or at least translated...photo...etc) that would be a great help.

Thanx in advance.

The Whyzyrd


________________________
Nemo me impune lacessit
- Montressor
- The Cask of Amontillado

Are you asking about multiple weapons in warfare ? Or in Martial Arts ?

Both actually.
As a martial artist myself - I have learned forms for fighting with multiple weapons (the butterfly knives for example) but these aren't documented. My Sifu doesn't have a book from 1350 showing the moves he taught me in the form. The Shaolin temples have extensive frescoes painted ont he walls of the training halls. Though I have only seen pictures - I haven't seen any with the students learning multiple weapons forms (besides - when was the temple last burned down - and rebuilt?)

As far as Europe is concerned - there are several (a dozen or so) surviving fighting manuals from the middle ages (for example Fiori's Italian manuscript. circa 1410, and Hans Talhoffer...German) - none of which discuss the use of fighting with - for example - two axes or two swords. They all focus on a single sword and shield - or a single sword (or pole axe) held in two hands.

Not until the renaissance was there a documented use of Sword and Main Gauche (sp?). There are also many first hand accounts of battles and fights - but - aside from the occasional soldier grabbing a second weapon in desperation - I know of no documented, codified use of multiple weapons. Hence my request for help.

We know that many soldiers were equiped with more than one weapon at a time - but - were they taught to use them as such?

Again - any help would be greatly appreciated.

The Whyzyrd

Actually, I believe there were several generals during the Age of Fragmentation who wielded two weapons... including Chen An, who used a Spear and a long sword as well.
There was someone else who simultaneously wielded a Spear and a Halberd at the same time, can't quite remember the name.

You should check that section- there's a thread about Chen An there.

In warfare:

Troops often have multiple weapons. Normaly though this is a missile weapon, a melee weapon, a substitude melee weapon.. these are then used sequentially. Most melee weapons are used alone (using two hands for strength, and accuracy) or with a shield (primaraly for protection but a shield is also a weapon in it's own right).
Sometimes the shield is replaced with a "parrying weapon" (something designed to catch the enemy weapon rather than deflect it or adsorb the blow), but these are far less useful in battle when groups of men fight in close proximity.

There is also the literary device of the hero/general/great man fighting with two weapons. This shows that he is better than other men, has greater strength and coordination, and can take on multiple opponents. As with all such literary devices, it rapidly becomes factual as real figures carry two weapons to signify that they are just as good as any litereary character.

Bodies of troops each fighting with two weapons are non exsistant. In a real battle the space required to use two weapons means that you end up fighting against more than one opponent (and against multiple skilled opponents, with no room to run, you loose quickly).

Agreed w. TAdamson on his pov.

Read somewhere that the specialized warriors might carry a long range implement, then a medium range bladed implements for single or multiple opposition.

The smart warriors always came prepared for all situations (climate, terrain and level of opposition).

Q: Did the ranked warriors of ["field general"] status carried their own weapons?

Yes, field officers normally carried weapons (or had a groom do the actual carrying )

It's only in the 18th C that we start to see European field officers occasionaly dispensing with them (though there are still instances of generals charging into the fight in a desperate bid to restore morale.

Thks f/ the info.

@ the end, it's better to be the weapon player than the weapon carrier.

Actually "multiple weapons" have their place in European fencing systems, at least from the Renaissance onwards.

While the Hispano-Italian method of sword-and-dagger (espada y daga;spada e pugnale) was one of the most common, it was not the only one. The descriptions in George Silver's Paradoxes of Defence (1599) suggest that the English had their own native form of sword-and-dagger fencing. In addition, it should be remembered that, in military application, the most common combo was sword-and-target (espada y rodela; spada e rotella). Men fighting with sword-and-shield have been common all over the world; witness the extensive use of the dao and tengpai by Chinese soldiers.

Other weapon combos in Europe, which saw use mostly in civilian fencing circles, included sword-and-buckler (spada e brocchiero), sword-and-cloak (spada e capa), & two swords (due spade).

I recall something like paired jian in sword dances, but never heard any mention of them being used for fighting.