From what I have been able to gather, the use of the dao (saber) and tengpai (round rattan shield) was rather common in Chinese armies.

I am familiar with Western targetiers (shieldbearers)--aka rodeleros, rotularii, rondhardtschieren, rondeliers, espadachins, spadaccini, etc.--but know comparatively little about their Continental Asian equivalents. I would love to know more about them.

Hence, this thread.

Let's dedicate this thread to the Chinese saber-and-shield men, and their martial art(s).



My first question is, was there ever a time in Chinese military history where the dao and tengpai were particularly popular, or was their use fairly evenly distributed over the centuries?

Most pre-Ming artwork illustratess roughly rectangular shields made of wood and covered with leather. The Tengpai was most popular from the 13th century through the 19th. I'm not sure of the reasons for this change in shield design, but I've heard that it may have came about during the Sung dynasty because of financial problems.

Thanks for the info, Conan!

The Qing Army had Han detachments armed with saber and tengpai which acts kinda like special assault force...

OK, this is the sort of thing I'd really love to know more about--do you have any details, or do you know of any good books in English on the subject?

The Ming had this too, special squads of swordsmen equipped with sabre and shield who accompanied mobile pavises into battle. I believe they also protected artillery emplacements.

If I am not mistaken,the Han detachment were used in the siege of a Russian Fort...

In 16th century Ming armies, was there a preferred ratio of dao-and-tengpai men to other troop types?

I'm don't have any exact numbers. But judging by illustrations, quite a few. I'm attaching a picture of the Ming army in battle against the Manchu. Note the three barelled arquebuses and sword+shield men. The rattan shields were apparently so tough that they could block and arquebus ball at a certain distance.

Great pic, thanks.

I'd like to know more about those multi-barrelled arquebuses too.

See this thread.
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=3028

Each barrel had a touchhole, after firing the next barrel would be moved into position by hand.

why are rattan sheilds so strong when were they invented/

I don't know when such shields were first invented, but rattan shields are strong due to the nature of rattan itself--it's a tough, fibrous vine that is flexible and resistant to cuts.

Have a look at this old thread: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1207

On rattan shields, we had this thread: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...=3896&hl=Rattan



The rattan-shielded (and rattan-armoured) troops used in the siege of Yakesa were not Han, but rather Taiwan aborigines recruited right after the Qing conquest of Taiwan. See my post here: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...dpost&p=4700888

When was this picture drawn? Is it modern, or contemporaneous with the events it depicts? And is it depicting any specific battle?

It's from the Manchu Veritable Records (Manju i yargiyan kooli, or Manzhou Shilu), a Manchu-language history book about the life of Nurhaci written in 1781. It depicts the Manchu conquest of Liaodong from the Ming dynasty in the early 17th century. You can get some other images from the book at this page: http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishlibra...rch?text=Manchu

Two more here: http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishlibra...2&startid=33376

Very nice site... thanks.

interesting the use of wheelbarrows like the first tank

Yes, that was clearly a tactic to enhance the survivability of musketeers. An updated version of the pavises used to protect crossbowmen.

BTW, Ta-tsin centurion, this recent thread on GRTC forums might interest you.
http://www.grtc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=181

I've just read in Needham's "gunpowder epic" that during the early Ming, gunners were deployed behind a rank of men carrying shields. The sources are silent, but it seems logical that these shield bearers would also carry sabres.

Thanks!

Yes indeed such a detachment of rattan-shield armed troops was deployed by the Manchus at the 1685 siege of Fort Albazin in the Amur River area.

These tengpai troops are explicitly mentioned as having come from Fujian (so likely former Koxinga troops); they had also been requistioned specifically for the campaign on account of their special skills it would seem. Among these are their skill in fighting under water: they apparently did very well in breaking up the Russian rafts on the river.

What surprised me when reading the primary accounts about this campaign is that these men also had firearms. So it appears that they were armed with both dadao's and pistols or muskets (perhaps not all were armed with both but enough were so equipped to merit calling attention to this fact). This strikes me as odd and it is something I do not see in the Ming illustration provided above: the musketeers and the tengpai troops w/ daos are clearly distinct there.

Wouldn't they have froze in such freezing waters in the northern winter climate. I mean Taiwan and Fujian waters are so tropical.

they have been moved to Beijing for a while before that battle took place. They are borg, they'll adapt.

Thank goodness the campaigns were confined to mid-Summer (mid-May-July). The emperor was clear that the army must be in/make for winter camps by August so the campaign season would have been reasonably short and confined to the warmest months.

This is the relevant passage that I alluded to from 1685:

"[the Russian reinforcements were coming down to the fort on the river] Thereupon he [Marquis Lin] ordered all our marines to take off their cloths and jump into the water. Each wore a rattan shield on his head and held a huge sword in his hand. Thus they swam forward. The Russians were so frightened that they all shouted: 'Behold, the big-capped Tartars!' Since our marines were in the water, they could not use their firearms. Our sailors wore rattan shields to protect their heads so that enemy bullets and arrows could not pierce them. Our marines used long swords to cut the enemy's ankles. The Russians fell into the river, most of them either killed or wounded. The rest fled and escaped. [Lin[ Hsing-chu had not lost a single marine when he returned to take part in besieging the city."

excerpted from the writings of Yang Hai-Chai, a relative of Marquis Lin, who himself participated in the campaigns; from Lo-Shu Fu, A Documentary Chronicle of Sino-western Relations (1644-1840), Association for Asian Studies (Tucson: Arizon University Press, 1966), 80.

Interestingly, the emperor also equipped the rattan shield soldiers with 2000 horses (the soldiers numbered only 400 though it seems). The long daos and rattan shields received imperial attention also: the dao's were made in Fujian while the rattan shields were thickened with "old" cotton.