Hello?
I was wondering if anybody out there knew where I could acquire a manchurian style bow. I have heard that there is a place in Beijing that still makes them, but I have not been able to find out where.

It's called Juyuan Hao 聚元号 (i.e. Juyuan Brand), and has been making bows for over 300 years. In September, it got listed as one of the heritage sites of Beijing city, and is now applying to be listed as a national cultural heritage site. It's located in the hostel of the Beijing Waterworks Department. The bowyer's name is Yang Fuxi.

Thank you so much!! I knew there was a place, but have had no luck finding it. Do you know if they bows are made the old way, or with man made materials?
Thanks again,
Scott

According to Yang, he is the last bowyer left in China to be still making composite bows in the traditional way.

Any clue on costs?
Thanks again,
Scott

That I have no idea, but it can't be cheap. They do take orders from foreigners, but one thing to take note of (I read it in the article about them):

They deliver bows in an unstrung state, but with the bowstring included separately in the package - that's considered the norm. One Englishman actually sued them back in 1951 for delivering a bow without a string, and made a laughing stock of himself.

You can find this article in the November issue of the Chinese Heritage magazine, published in the PRC.

BTW, I noticed that you live in Guilin. I'll be going there tomorrow for a 5-day holiday.

Cool! If you find out how much a regular bow costs let me know. I might want to order one and ship it back here.

Don't get your hopes up
their bow ain't really that great. I've handled a few of them before, nowhere near the quality of those made in Hungary.

That's sad

If you need a tour guide, let me know. I love this city, and am always happy to show people around. If you are not careful, you can fall into the tourist trap, and that is not very interesting.
Anyhow, let me know.

Do you know how I can find one of the Hungarian ones?

I tried them in Hungary.

www.grozerarchery.com

www.horsebows.com

all my bows are from these two bowyers. both from hungary

grozer does actually make a Qing Chinese/Manchu bow.

keep in mind that the more natural materials they use, the more expensive and the longer it will take. a recurve bow made 100% of natural materials usually takes 1-3 years to make and can cost well over a thousand dollars

all natural composite recurve bows are also temperamental and frequently change draw weights depending on the season.

Thanks a lot!!
I have contacted Grozer. I hope to be ordering one soon.
Any idea about getting Manchu quivers and bow sheathes?

theres no such thing as an official Manchu bow sheathes unless you're talking about official Qing imperial ones which i have no idea where to get or as to why anyone would want one

a bow sheath is a bow sheath. Tang Dynasty Chinese archers used tiger skin to sheathe the unstrung bow

Manchu Quivers are unique due to the fact that Qing era arrows were HUGE and had to be seperated in the sheath and could not be arbitrarily shoved into a quiver.

atarn.org has pictures of some but i wouldn't know where to get one.

may i ask are you getting a bow for shooting or just collection purposes. because if you're shooting, theres no need to become extremely specific with your equipment.

I am talking about the imperial ones. I guess I'll just have to have one made.

I want the bow for shooting, and collecting purposes.

I love the Qing dynasty, and want to have things as accurate as possible. That's just how I am. Even my house is Qing Dynasty. I am having a 5th level offical's house built here in Guilin. Inside it is modern, with Chinese touches, and outside is authentic as I can get it. My study is authentic inside and our however. I paint traditional Chinese paintings, and I have always dreamed of painting in such a setting.
I don't know, maybe it's kinda strange, but it makes me happy.

Here are some articles with pictures about the Beijing Bowyer. It appears he is becoming quite well known. I have found quite a few articles about him, but nothing giving his address.



http://www.gmw.cn/content/2005-07/25/content_277398.htm

http://www.djdq.org/94ul/printpage.asp?BoardID=4&ID=20891

a forum member has stated that he has tried his bows and they are not of good quality

it doesn't surprise me, when you have a title like "the only bowyer left in China", you tend to have no competition.

I know YANG Fu Xi and he works bravely alone to try to make a living from making bows in the traditional way.

He makes bows, arrows, pellet-bows and crossbows. But it's true the quality of his production doesn't match with the tackle made in China up to World War 2.

If you're interested, I made a photo report about him making arrows in the traditional way. The comments are in French (sorry) but there must be 40+ pictures detailing the step by step operations.

http://webarcherie.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3138

I wouldn't call them Manchu bows, as they are, and were historically, made by Chinese craftsmen. As for the style, I don't think Ming era bows were different in any significant way. Chinese have been making recurve composite bows since at least the Shang Dynasty.

Actually according to Chinese sources historically Juyuan Hao does date back to the Ming Dynasty.

今天的东四十字路口西南角，历史上是一座弓箭大院。弓箭大院至少在明朝就已建立，而明朝时这里已有40多家制作、经营弓箭的店铺，生意也十分兴隆。随着火药的发明、枪炮的使用，弓箭等冷兵器的地位逐渐缩小。到了清朝，弓箭大院的弓箭铺还剩17家。

"At the south-west corner of the cross-roads of today's fourth eastern road, historically there has been a large yard of bow and arrow makers. This yard was established at least during the Ming Dynasty. During the Ming there were more than 40 shops making and selling bows and arrows, the business there was very good. Due to the increasing use of firearms, the status of weapons such as bow and arrow decreased. By the Qing Dynasty, there were only 17 shops left in the large yard of bow and arrow makers."

How can one order them? Do they have a website?

Even if they are not as good, they are still Chinese.

No matter how good sites like grozer are, they are still foreign.

Also, this does not mean historically they are not as good. Many traditional industries in China declined to the point of extinction in recent decades, mainly due to the destructive effects of the Cultural Revolution. Bow construction is a very complex process. The final quality of a bow is not just determined by the skills of the bow maker. The source of the materials is another important factor, yet most of the traditional suppliers of these materials have all disappeared in China, a lot of the traditional materials from which a recurve composite bow is made are very hard to find in China today.

Yeah, Because the Ming generally didn't prefer Chinese bows either. During the Ming dynasty, large amounts of Hungarian bows were imported and copied. A few changes were made here and there, but the overall design was hungarian.


And you point ? Fact that they are chinese does not make them better. Ultranationalism does not turn something bad into something good. For whatever reason, the quality have declined.

In fact, Manchu bows are also a style of bow making and it doesn't mean that a Manchurian only can make them (just like English longbows are made all around the world).

Qing bows are special in that they are the most overbuilt asian bows, with massive siyahs, thick limbs and a long length. They were designed to propel a massive arrow at a moderate speed and distance.

The Ming style bow (according to paintings, because I do not think one is still existing) was much slender, short, and its siyahs were much less noticeable. Overall, the Ming bow was much closer to the Korean bow than to the Qing bow.


I'm not Chinese, but I try supporting Ju Yuan Hao because he's the last bowmaker today in China. He needs to have enough success so that in turn a youngster might be tempted to join his company and keep on building bows. And hopefully make them as nice as they were 70 years ago.

LOL where did you get that from? i've never heard that. all my bows are made by Hungarian bowyers and i've talked extensively about hungarian bows with them. you couldn't have two recurve bows that were more different than a Ming bow and hungarian bow.

the Ming bow most closely resembles Han era bows in length/width sans the assymetry. Ming bows also had string bridges(from Mongol design) which hungarian bows did not. not to mention the siyahs on Ming bows were quite small and hungarian siyahs are LONG

i'd have to say not from a nationalist point of view but CHinese archery skill and technological innovation is incredibly underrated. At the end of the Ming dynasty, portugese traders commented how despite teh overall quality of Chinese troops were getting worst and worst, their archery skills never declined (i'll look up the source later, i'm at work)

while we're on that subject. Manchus are Chinese (don't worry, i'm not a zhonghua min zu guy because i don't consider uighurs and tibetans to be Chinese but thats another subject)

secondly, Yang Fu Xi is part Manchu. so if you're gonna just support because you think he is Han, you might want to reconsider it.

lastly, the whole Manchu bow vs Ming bow is pointless. Chinese recurve bows changed from dynasty to dynasty as part of BOTH native innovation and nomadic influence (not going to allow either the han nationalists or PC buttwipes on the forum to give more credit to one side). Ming and Qing bows were far more similar than lets say Tang era bows or Song era bows.

i would like bowyers to make pre-Qing style bows though simply because i think Qing bows are large, exaggerated and cumbersome (i call it the pamela anderson of recurve bows). i also don't like string bridges which Qing, Ming and Mongol bows have.

I was looking at Grozier's site and thought that his Turkish example looked the most similar to the unstrung bows I saw in BeiJing's military museum. As I recall, the unstrung bows looked more like a "C" shape.

Whether or not a bow has this typical C-shape when unstrung is dependant on a lot of things. In antique bows I have seen them very recurved so both ends almost touch, but also less recurved. In modern bows, glassfiber bows have less of a C shape or not a C shape at all because that form does not work well for this material.

As for Ju yuan Hao, I purchased a glassfiber bow with him when I was in Beijing not long ago. His traditionally made bows are indeed not very good, but the glassfiber feels pretty good and I think it's a good bow to start out with if you want to practise traditional archery. It's too bad it's not finished well, glued on leather strips come off, the string needed to be rewound before even having fired a shot, etc.

I've got his businesscard with his adress and number somewhere, I'll post it once I found it.

As for Manchu bows, and Manchu being Chinese: In the Qing dynasty and prior to that nobody regarded Manchu as Chinese. They lived in seperate cities that were walled and had all kinds of priviliges. They ate the emperoro's rice and were all classified under the eight banners, could not be tortured when caught, etc.

In the Ming dynasty nobody thought Manchu were Chinese either. They were not even Manchu, actually. The Manchu were originally a bunch of highly divided Jurchen tribes that were unified by Nurhaci, who formed a common myth of origin. The purpose of this myth was to create unity, and a common Manchu identity. These newly formed Manch then set to attack the Ming empire, and overthrew it. They have only been classified as a Chinese minority since the 20th century.

Their bows were similar to Mongol bows but different from the bows in use in China at that time. Indeed, Ming bows seemed to have been much smaller. Them being named Manchu bows derives from the fact that these big recurve bows were introduced there by the Manchu, and their soldiers commisioned them to be made by workmen, Manchu and Han alike.

-Peter

Can one of you give me the link to Grozier's web site or any other web site that has good primitive bow selection?

Can you give the website address of the Grozier website. I couldnt google it.

http://www.grozerarchery.com/

Peter
Could you post Ju yuan Hao's businesscard.
Does he sell bows on the spot or is there a waiting list?
Thanks,
Rob

Romain - i am going to Biejing in May 2007 and really want to purchase (or place an order) for one of Yang Fuxi's bows. can you get me the contact information at all?????? an address would be perfect. thank you in advance!!

Hi,

They are available through me if anyone is interested. I still got a couple of his glassfiber bows lying around and two traditional bows are nearing completion. I'll only keep one for myself.

-Peter

Try this website.
http://www.mandarinmansion.com/main.htm

Peter is very into traditional Manchu bows.
Josh